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Jesus decided not to come again because Joseph Smith died too early?

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  • Jesus decided not to come again because Joseph Smith died too early?

    Here is a question for a LDS member. Joseph stated in his Journal:

    "There are those of the rising generation whole shall not taste death till Christ comes. I was once praying earnestly upon this subject and a voice said unto me, 'My son, if thou livest till thou art 85 years of age, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man'. I was left to draw my one conclusions concerning this and I took the liberty to conclude that if I did make it to that time he, Jesus, would make his appearance but I did not say whether he shall make his appearance or I shall go where he is. I prophecy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written, that the Son of Man will not come till I am 85 years old, 48 years hence or about 1890."

    So is it true that God gave Joseph this revelation knowing it would not be fulfilled and then did not come because it was not fulfilled? In essence did Jesus decide not to come again because Joseph didn't make it to his 85th birthday?
    Last edited by DigitalInkling; 05-18-2014, 08:03 PM.

  • #2
    I think the voice that Smith heard was his own. And most of the "failed" prophesies have been explained away by Tweb Mormons as "conditional" -- if the condition was not met (Smith reaching the age of 85) then, yes, the "prophecy" doesn't count.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      I think the voice that Smith heard was his own. And most of the "failed" prophesies have been explained away by Tweb Mormons as "conditional" -- if the condition was not met (Smith reaching the age of 85) then, yes, the "prophecy" doesn't count.
      Hmmm this is more than a failed prophecy. This is God giving a prophecy that had to do with his returning and kinda not knowing Joseph would die young. Almost like taking candy away from a baby. I just find it almost evil that God decided to work this way. It sounds more devilish than Godly.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by DigitalInkling View Post
        Hmmm this is more than a failed prophecy. This is God giving a prophecy that had to do with his returning and kinda not knowing Joseph would die young. Almost like taking candy away from a baby. I just find it almost evil that God decided to work this way. It sounds more devilish than Godly.
        But it's right on par with God threatening to destroy Smith's otherwise very faithful wife, Emma, for no other reason than t she didn't want to go along with Smith marrying other women.
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

        Comment


        • #5
          "When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. "(Matthew 10:23)

          "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:28)

          "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." (Matthew 24:34)

          And he said to them, “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.” (Mark 9:1)

          "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:27)


          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          How's that for a humble warm up for you.

          Originally posted by DigitalInkling View Post
          Here is a question for a LDS member. ...
          Let's see if I can help you with your ... "question"? Which is really some kind of accusation.

          Joseph kept insisting on asking God when the Second Coming would occur. God kept insisting on not telling Joseph when it would occur. Because NOBODY will be told when it will occur: "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matthew 24:36)


          "I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter."(DC 130:14-15)

          Joseph Smith expressed doubt concerning whether or not he understood what was being said to him. Especially since he had predicted that he would die young.

          Joseph Smith himself understood the revelation, unfiltered through note-takers or critics who wish to explain his meaning:

          "I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face."(DC :130).

          In LDS history, those last two options OCCURRED.

          Therefore, it is clear that Joseph did not understand this to be a definitive prediction on the Second Coming. In fact, he did not have a clear understanding at all, nor should he, because God never intended on giving time for the second coming. Joseph was left to only give his opinion that, "I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.(DC 130:17)

          Later, when some person was predicting the Second Coming in forty years, Joseph Smith said:

          I also prophesy, in the name of the Lord, that Christ will not come in forty years; and if God ever spoke by my mouth, He will not come in that length of time. Brethren, when you go home, write this down, that it may be remembered. Jesus Christ never did reveal to any man the precise time that He would come. Go and read the scriptures, and you cannot find anything that specifies the exact hour He would come; and all that say so are false teachers.

          He reiterated again in 1844, which also corresponds with the Doctrine and Covenants in 1831:

          " And they have done unto the Son of Man even as they listed; and he has taken his power on the right hand of his glory, and now reigneth in the heavens, and will reign till he descends on the earth to put all enemies under his feet, which time is nigh at hand—I, the Lord God, have spoken it; but the hour and the day no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor shall they know until he comes." (DC 49:6-7)

          So, I find it interesting that critics like to claim that Joseph Smith was supposedly predicting when the Second Coming would be, yet Joseph denied that anyone could or would know when second coming of Christ would be.

          Critics usually don't like to include all the information that I just provided. Puppets just like to repeat the incomplete information that they have been fed by false teachers.

          Elsewhere on the forum, someone said that LDS are leaving the church because of the "information" they can find on the internet. If they are deceived by this "information", which is obviously a misrepresentation by means of omitting the truth, then that has little to do with what is actually right and what is wrong.

          Do you feel proud, Digital, to push this kind of "information"? The ends justifies the means. Right?


          -7up
          Last edited by seven7up; 05-20-2014, 02:08 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seven7up View Post
            Joseph kept insisting on asking God when the Second Coming would occur. God kept insisting on not telling Joseph when it would occur. Because NOBODY will be told when it will occur: "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matthew 24:36)
            But because Smith was such an arrogant self-centered individual, he thought he had a right to know.

            "I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter."(DC 130:14-15)

            Joseph Smith expressed doubt concerning whether or not he understood what was being said to him. Especially since he had predicted that he would die young.
            Just more confusion. God is not the author of confusion.

            Joseph Smith himself understood the revelation
            There was no revelation -- Just more grandstanding by Smith.
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seven7up View Post
              Elsewhere on the forum, someone said that LDS are leaving the church because of the "information" they can find on the internet. If they are deceived by this "information", which is obviously a misrepresentation by means of omitting the truth, then that has little to do with what is actually right and what is wrong.
              Apparently, you only "peeked at" that information, because this is NOT an accurate summary of that thread. The fact is that Mormons are finding out that THEIR OWN "truth" is conflicted by information on their own websites, and their own Church's history.

              Here's the problem, Seven... you bury your head in the sand, and are suffering the logical fallacy of overcommitment -- you are committed to believing in Smith REGARDLESS of the facts and the TRUTH. Millions of your fellow church members, however, are beginning to see that there's a lot of inconsistency.

              You bow before a false prophet, and you get your "religion" from a phony book.
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                "When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. "(Matthew 10:23)

                "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:28)

                "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." (Matthew 24:34)

                And he said to them, “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.” (Mark 9:1)

                "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:27)


                - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                How's that for a humble warm up for you.



                Let's see if I can help you with your ... "question"? Which is really some kind of accusation.

                Joseph kept insisting on asking God when the Second Coming would occur. God kept insisting on not telling Joseph when it would occur. Because NOBODY will be told when it will occur: "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matthew 24:36)


                "I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter."(DC 130:14-15)

                Joseph Smith expressed doubt concerning whether or not he understood what was being said to him. Especially since he had predicted that he would die young.

                Joseph Smith himself understood the revelation, unfiltered through note-takers or critics who wish to explain his meaning:

                "I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face."(DC :130).

                In LDS history, those last two options OCCURRED.

                Therefore, it is clear that Joseph did not understand this to be a definitive prediction on the Second Coming. In fact, he did not have a clear understanding at all, nor should he, because God never intended on giving time for the second coming. Joseph was left to only give his opinion that, "I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.(DC 130:17)

                Later, when some person was predicting the Second Coming in forty years, Joseph Smith said:

                I also prophesy, in the name of the Lord, that Christ will not come in forty years; and if God ever spoke by my mouth, He will not come in that length of time. Brethren, when you go home, write this down, that it may be remembered. Jesus Christ never did reveal to any man the precise time that He would come. Go and read the scriptures, and you cannot find anything that specifies the exact hour He would come; and all that say so are false teachers.

                He reiterated again in 1844, which also corresponds with the Doctrine and Covenants in 1831:

                " And they have done unto the Son of Man even as they listed; and he has taken his power on the right hand of his glory, and now reigneth in the heavens, and will reign till he descends on the earth to put all enemies under his feet, which time is nigh at hand—I, the Lord God, have spoken it; but the hour and the day no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor shall they know until he comes." (DC 49:6-7)

                So, I find it interesting that critics like to claim that Joseph Smith was supposedly predicting when the Second Coming would be, yet Joseph denied that anyone could or would know when second coming of Christ would be.

                Critics usually don't like to include all the information that I just provided. Puppets just like to repeat the incomplete information that they have been fed by false teachers.

                Elsewhere on the forum, someone said that LDS are leaving the church because of the "information" they can find on the internet. If they are deceived by this "information", which is obviously a misrepresentation by means of omitting the truth, then that has little to do with what is actually right and what is wrong.

                Do you feel proud, Digital, to push this kind of "information"? The ends justifies the means. Right?


                -7up

                so....

                1. I prophecy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written, that the Son of Man will not come till I am 85 years old, 48 years hence or about 1890.
                2. I also prophesy, in the name of the Lord, that Christ will not come in forty years.

                Which prophesy was a lie?

                What does the bible say about lying false prophets who prophesy in the name of God?



                Deuteronomy 18:20-22 ESV
                But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

                Hmm. Smith died. Seems like God kept HIS promise anyway.


                This is the lesson you LDS should take away from all this:

                Jeremiah 23:16 This is what the Lord Almighty says:

                “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you;
                they fill you with false hopes.
                They speak visions from their own minds,
                not from the mouth of the Lord.

                25 “I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, ‘I had a dream! I had a dream!’ 26 How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds? 27 They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name, just as their ancestors forgot my name through Baal worship. 28 Let the prophet who has a dream recount the dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?” declares the Lord. 29 “Is not my word like fire,” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?

                30 “Therefore,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. 31 Yes,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ 32 Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” declares the Lord. “They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the Lord.

                God says that Smith was not appointed by him. That he was a lying prophet and God killed him for it.

                The LDS church is a false church, led by false teachers and false prophets.

                Wake up.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DigitalInkling View Post
                  Here is a question for a LDS member. Joseph stated in his Journal:

                  "There are those of the rising generation whole shall not taste death till Christ comes. I was once praying earnestly upon this subject and a voice said unto me, 'My son, if thou livest till thou art 85 years of age, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man'. I was left to draw my one conclusions concerning this and I took the liberty to conclude that if I did make it to that time he, Jesus, would make his appearance but I did not say whether he shall make his appearance or I shall go where he is. I prophecy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written, that the Son of Man will not come till I am 85 years old, 48 years hence or about 1890."

                  So is it true that God gave Joseph this revelation knowing it would not be fulfilled and then did not come because it was not fulfilled? In essence did Jesus decide not to come again because Joseph didn't make it to his 85th birthday?

                  It is clear from the statement that Joseph Smith really did not understand the answer he was given so he was left to his own to draw his own conclusions. What is very clear is that at least up to the very end of his life, Joseph Smith has no clue on when he said on March 10, 1844 the following:

                  "But I take the responsibility upon myself to prophesy in the name of the Lord, that Christ will not come this year as Miller has prophecyed, for we have seen the bow. and I also Prophecy in the name of the Lord that Christ will not Come in forty years & if God ever spake by my mouth he will not in that length of time & Jesus Christ never did reveal to any man the precise time that he would come, go & read the scriptures & you cannot find anything that specified the exact time he would come & all who say so are false teachers." (History of The Church 6:254)

                  Joseph Smith may have had his own personal feelings on the issue like many people throughout history but the nuts and bolts of it is he did not know when Christ would return. If Joseph Smith really believed that Christ was going to come in 1890, he does not seem to be aware of that view on March 10, 1844.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    How could Smith be confused by the prophesy? He was able to talk directly to God. Surely the God of the universe could explain it to him in clear language, after all he is not a god of confusion.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post
                      It is clear from the statement that Joseph Smith really did not understand the answer he was given so he was left to his own to draw his own conclusions.
                      Then he should have kept his lying mouth shut til he got clarification.
                      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post
                        Joseph Smith may have had his own personal feelings on the issue like many people throughout history
                        The VAST MAJORITY of people throughout history didn't set themselves up as God's own spokesperson.

                        but the nuts and bolts of it is he did not know when Christ would return.
                        Then he should have kept his mouth shut on the issue.

                        If Joseph Smith really believed that Christ was going to come in 1890, he does not seem to be aware of that view on March 10, 1844.
                        It is not at all unusual for Smith to spew forth nonsense for the current situation or audience, only to say something conflicting subsequently.
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          "I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter."(DC 130:14-15)

                          Joseph Smith expressed doubt concerning whether or not he understood what was being said to him. Especially since he had predicted that he would die young.

                          Joseph Smith himself understood the revelation, unfiltered through note-takers or critics who wish to explain his meaning:

                          "I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face."(DC :130).

                          In LDS history, those last two options OCCURRED.

                          Therefore, it is clear that Joseph did not understand this to be a definitive prediction on the Second Coming. In fact, he did not have a clear understanding at all, nor should he, because God never intended on giving time for the second coming. Joseph was left to only give his opinion that, "I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.(DC 130:17)

                          Later, when some person was predicting the Second Coming in forty years, Joseph Smith said:

                          I also prophesy, in the name of the Lord, that Christ will not come in forty years; and if God ever spoke by my mouth, He will not come in that length of time. Brethren, when you go home, write this down, that it may be remembered. Jesus Christ never did reveal to any man the precise time that He would come. Go and read the scriptures, and you cannot find anything that specifies the exact hour He would come; and all that say so are false teachers.

                          He reiterated again in 1844, which also corresponds with the Doctrine and Covenants in 1831:

                          " And they have done unto the Son of Man even as they listed; and he has taken his power on the right hand of his glory, and now reigneth in the heavens, and will reign till he descends on the earth to put all enemies under his feet, which time is nigh at hand—I, the Lord God, have spoken it; but the hour and the day no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor shall they know until he comes." (DC 49:6-7)

                          So, I find it interesting that critics like to claim that Joseph Smith was supposedly predicting when the Second Coming would be, yet Joseph denied that anyone could or would know when second coming of Christ would be.

                          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Apparently, you only "peeked at" that information, because this is NOT an accurate summary of that thread. The fact is that Mormons are finding out that THEIR OWN "truth" is conflicted by information on their own websites, and their own Church's history.

                          Here's the problem, Seven... you bury your head in the sand, and are suffering the logical fallacy of overcommitment -- you are committed to believing in Smith REGARDLESS of the facts and the TRUTH.
                          Wrong. I simply provided MORE truth and more CONTEXT, which was omitted by Digital.

                          The anti-Mormons were busted for peddling misinformation by means of omitting all of the information I provided above. Either Digital is guilty of this deception himself, or he is an ignorant tool of the deceivers.

                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Millions of your fellow church members, however, are beginning to see that there's a lot of inconsistency.
                          There is only inconsistency if people are only given a twisted version of the facts, as attempted by Digital beginning this thread.

                          Furthermore, the attempt to use some kind of "bandwagon" marketing approach ("hey, everybody's doing it) is a rather pathetic attempt if you ask me.

                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          You bow before a false prophet, ...
                          Straw man. You imply that our religion includes worship of prophets.

                          You just prove my point even further by clearly demonstrating the desperate tactics that anti-mormons are resorting to.

                          -7up

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            so....

                            1. I prophecy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written, that the Son of Man will not come till I am 85 years old, 48 years hence or about 1890.
                            2. I also prophesy, in the name of the Lord, that Christ will not come in forty years.

                            Which prophesy was a lie?
                            Neither is a lie. Both are correct. There were predictions by many people about when the Second Coming would be. For example, a man was predicting that it would occur in 40 years. Joseph said that the Second Coming would NOT be that soon. He clearly admitted many times that he did not know exactly when the Second coming would be, only that it would NOT be, for example, as soon as 40 years.



                            -7up

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                              Furthermore, the attempt to use some kind of "bandwagon" marketing approach ("hey, everybody's doing it) is a rather pathetic attempt if you ask me.
                              Hmmmmm.... it's not about "everybody's doing it"... it's about the Truth coming out ---- the sanitized versions that Mormons teach conflicts with the Mormon history available on the internet. More and more people are seeing that.

                              Straw man. You imply that our religion includes worship of prophets.
                              It does. You just deny it. Isn't Smith supposed to "help Jesus" "check people into heaven"? (that's how NRAJeff 'splained it) Perhaps you can set me straight on the notion that nobody gets into Heaven without Smith "OK'ing" it.

                              You just prove my point even further by clearly demonstrating the desperate tactics that anti-mormons are resorting to.

                              -7up
                              Yeah, we shouldn't use TRUTH and FACTS and your Church's own history in exposing Mormonism... that is SO unfair and ... um... "desperate".
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                              Comment

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