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  • #91
    Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post
    I think you should look further back into the context, which is where I was coming from when I built upon the car salesman analogy. The issue was CO2's excellent (IMO) advice that

    "I think a good rule of a salesman is don't bash or insult the intelligence of the customer assuming that the salesman knows the subject matter better than the customer. When the salesman dismisses the views of the customer and proceeds to lecture the customer on what he things is right, the salesman loses his customer."
    For you or BTC or Sparko or anyone else to extrapolate that into an implication that I was accusing you of getting something in return for sharing the gospel, is just reading something into the text that wasn't intended--"eisegesis." I didn't intend it to be taken that literally.
    CO2 (and you, by agreement) is fighting a bugbear of his own making. Who here bashes the intelligence of Mormons, in general or particular? Aside from it being a terrible analogy - salesmen are EXPECTED to know their product better than the customer - the thrust can easily be turned in the other direction. I recall plenty of efforts by Mormons here to lecture us on the Trinity. I also recall you in particular attempting to co-opt Athanasius in support of the Mormon idea of exaltation without even bothering to read the context from which the quote you like so much was taken.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #92
      7UP: Admitting fallibility is not the same as "throwing under the bus".

      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Of course it's not.
      7UP: The same applies to Old Testament prophets and New Testament Apostles, by the way.

      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Yes, we've seen them get thrown under the bus by Mormons too (on the old Tweb; can't say I've seen it on the new Tweb yet, but give it time).
      As you just agreed, saying that these prophets and apostles are able to make mistakes is not the same as "thowing them under the bus".

      LDS folks have more realistic expectations of what prophets and apostles are like in real life. Unlike ancient apostles and prophets, where we have limited accounts of their lives, Mormons wrote down practically everything that LDS leaders ever said in public, and even a lot of what they said in private. Obviously, this opens them up to more detailed scrutiny, which in all fairness, would likely have had similar flaws revealed if extensive documentation existed with the ancient prophets and apostles. Even within the scriptures, some severe flaws are revealed, even as some apostles in the New Testament church were "racist" against anyone who was not Jewish.

      -7up

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by seven7up View Post
        LDS folks have more realistic expectations of what prophets and apostles are like in real life. Unlike ancient apostles and prophets, where we have limited accounts of their lives, Mormons wrote down practically everything that LDS leaders ever said in public, and even a lot of what they said in private.
        Well, yeah, and sometimes that was just plain DUMB... I mean... some of your 'prophets' said and did some really dumb things that I can't even IMAGINE real prophets doing.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Well, yeah, and sometimes that was just plain DUMB... I mean... some of your 'prophets' said and did some really dumb things that I can't even IMAGINE real prophets doing.

          Every single person , except Jesus, who has ever lived has said and done things that are just plain DUMB. (This is especially true from the perspective of people in a modern society who have unlimited information at our fingertips.)

          Get over it. Work on the beams in your own eyes, rather than trying to dissect the motes of people who lived a long time ago in a less progressive culture and when different sentimentalities reigned.

          -7up

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by seven7up View Post
            Every single person , except Jesus, who has ever lived has said and done things that are just plain DUMB.
            Meh... I think that's an overstatement, and the DEGREE to which somebody "says something dumb" varies wildly.

            (This is especially true from the perspective of people in a modern society who have unlimited information at our fingertips.)
            But your 'prophets' SUPPOSEDLY heard directly from God, who ALWAYS has (and had) unlimited information at His fingertips.

            Get over it.
            Sounds like you got your panties in a twist, Seven ... calm down a tad.

            Work on the beams in your own eyes,
            Because you have none of your own?

            rather than trying to dissect the motes of people who lived a long time ago in a less progressive culture and when different sentimentalities reigned.

            -7up
            And I bet you believe Lois Lerner's hard drive really crashed.

            Your "prophets', claiming to "speak scripture" have said some PROFOUNDLY stupid things, which puts you and your buddies in a "dog ate my homework" mode in trying to explain them.

            All you can do is throw the REAL prophets under the bus and besmirch their character and authenticity.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by seven7up View Post
              Every single person , except Jesus, who has ever lived has said and done things that are just plain DUMB.
              OK, try to think about this, Seven. Prophets are not "every person", and "every person" is not a prophet. Prophets of the Bible are very special people -- not just Joe Sixpack. Are you claiming that the Mormon "prophets" are "lesser than" Bible Prophets?

              Also, the office of Prophet requires a certain quality... "to whom much is given, much will be required" kind of thing. Are Mormon "prophets", in your opinion, not held to a higher standard than "every single person"?
              Last edited by Cow Poke; 06-20-2014, 07:17 AM.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Who here bashes the intelligence of Mormons, in general or particular?
                I am not sure this counts, but here is one possible answer:

                "...some of your 'prophets' said and did some really dumb things..."

                Aside from it being a terrible analogy - salesmen are EXPECTED to know their product better than the customer -
                I think I can agree with that. It's when the salesman implies that he knows a competing product better, that it becomes debatable.The following is not the same thing, but you and others may be able to relate to it: Recently, I went to a gun shop to browse through the inventory, and one of the salesmen (mid-20s or younger) tried to talk me into buying guns that he thought would be just what I needed. I disagreed with him, because a) I think I know my needs better than he knew my needs, and b) I probably knew about as much about guns when I was in my mid-20s as he knows about them, but I am now in my mid-50s.

                the thrust can easily be turned in the other direction.
                Yes, it probably can be.

                I recall plenty of efforts by Mormons here to lecture us on the Trinity.
                To lecture you on the flaws that Mormons see in the dogma, yes. I will concede that. It would be weird if such a thing didn't occur.

                I also recall you in particular attempting to co-opt Athanasius in support of the Mormon idea of exaltation without even bothering to read the context from which the quote you like so much was taken.
                My recollection does not agree with yours. I will say that there have been occasions (not necessarily here) when I have cited Athanasius merely as a rebuttal to the sweeping accusation that "Christians have never believed that humans can become gods." I didn't claim that Athanasius' understanding of theosis was identical to LDS doctrine on the subject, but some Trinitarians accused me of making that claim. Those Trinitarians were mistaken.
                Last edited by NRA-Jeff; 06-20-2014, 11:40 AM.
                "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven...." Joseph Smith

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Well, yeah, and sometimes that was just plain DUMB... I mean... some of your 'prophets' said and did some really dumb things that I can't even IMAGINE real prophets doing.
                  You believe the Bible's claims about what OT prophets said, right? Don't you agree that some of them said and did what could be termed "really dumb things" that doubters couldn't even IMAGINE real prophets doing?
                  "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven...." Joseph Smith

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    OK, try to think about this, Seven. Prophets are not "every person", and "every person" is not a prophet. Prophets of the Bible are very special people -- not just Joe Sixpack. Are you claiming that the Mormon "prophets" are "lesser than" Bible Prophets?
                    No, I am claiming that Mormon prophets are equally fallible as Bible prophets. Biblical prophets, get drunk and sleep with their own family members, they kill/murder, take up concubines, deny Christ, etc. However, we have much more documentation on LDS prophets, which give critics more material to scrutinize.

                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Also, the office of Prophet requires a certain quality... "to whom much is given, much will be required" kind of thing. Are Mormon "prophets", in your opinion, not held to a higher standard than "every single person"?
                    Let's take Brigham Young, for example. If I had been raised the way he was raised, with his protestant upbringing and the culture in which he lived, and the understanding that people had in his day, would I have done better than him in bringing the Saints out west, colonizing the mountainous desert and leading the Latter-Day Saints through those trying times?

                    Probably not.

                    -7up

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                      No, I am claiming that Mormon prophets are equally fallible as Bible prophets. Biblical prophets, get drunk and sleep with their own family members, they kill/murder, take up concubines, deny Christ, etc. However, we have much more documentation on LDS prophets, which give critics more material to scrutinize.



                      Let's take Brigham Young, for example. If I had been raised the way he was raised, with his protestant upbringing and the culture in which he lived, and the understanding that people had in his day, would I have done better than him in bringing the Saints out west, colonizing the mountainous desert and leading the Latter-Day Saints through those trying times?

                      Probably not.

                      -7up
                      so basically the LDS church is in fact no better than the Christian church. Is that what you are saying?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post
                        You believe the Bible's claims about what OT prophets said, right? Don't you agree that some of them said and did what could be termed "really dumb things" that doubters couldn't even IMAGINE real prophets doing?
                        Smith had a golden opportunity to "write on a clean slate" with his alleged "restoration" of the Church -- and the best he could do was "just like everybody else, and WORSE"?
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Smith had a golden opportunity to "write on a clean slate" with his alleged "restoration" of the Church -- and the best he could do was "just like everybody else, and WORSE"?
                          Sorry, you lost me. I was talking about how a person's words or actions are perceived as being dumb by people who are prejudiced against that person. To an atheist, the "god" of the Bible had a golden opportunity to choose "prophets" who would always say and do things that would always be perceived by everyone as being awesome. To an atheist, the God of the Bible failed miserably at doing that. To you, Joseph Smith is like how an atheist might feel about OT prophets.
                          "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven...." Joseph Smith

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post
                            Sorry, you lost me. I was talking about how a person's words or actions are perceived as being dumb by people who are prejudiced against that person. To an atheist, the "god" of the Bible had a golden opportunity to choose "prophets" who would always say and do things that would always be perceived by everyone as being awesome. To an atheist, the God of the Bible failed miserably at doing that. To you, Joseph Smith is like how an atheist might feel about OT prophets.
                            Yeah, Jeff, I've heard all the "that's what an atheist would say" arguments, but they just don't float... did ANY of the REAL prophets claim that every word they spoke was scripture, and say really dumb things, apparently, "from God"?

                            Source: A Source you won't like :smile:

                            Twice at last October’s General Conference, speakers made positive reference to a speech delivered in 1980 by an LDS Apostle (who later became President of the Church). In this original speech, Mormons were told that, “The Prophet Does Not Have to Say ‘Thus Saith the Lord’ to Give Us Scripture.” The point the apostle was making was that a prophet’s words are always wholly authoritative and binding upon the Church; what he says is scripture. Brigham Young, another LDS President, was quoted in this speech as having said, “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture” (Ezra Taft Benson, Fourteen Fundamentals of Following the Prophet, press copy, 6-7).

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            It's the wacko weirdo CULT leaders who claim this extra-biblical power to speak for God.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • I think this is the Mormon attempt to equate Mormon 'prophets' with the best of the REAL Prophets, not try to throw them under the bus by claiming they're "just good ol' boys" like those sinful prophets of old.

                              Source: lds.org/scriptures

                              1 My servant, Orson Hyde, was called by his ordination to proclaim the everlasting gospel, by the Spirit of the living God, from people to people, and from land to land, in the congregations of the wicked, in their synagogues, reasoning with and expounding all scriptures unto them.

                              2 And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth—

                              3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

                              4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

                              © Copyright Original Source

                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                                No, I am claiming that Mormon prophets are equally fallible as Bible prophets. Biblical prophets, get drunk and sleep with their own family members, they kill/murder, take up concubines, deny Christ, etc. However, we have much more documentation on LDS prophets, which give critics more material to scrutinize.
                                This is a splendid example of Mormons throwing Bible prophets under the bus.

                                What prophet did any of those things? Not all people mentioned in the Bible were prophets.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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