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Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
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Look! It's a bird, no it's a plane, no it's a bicycle built for two!
This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the LDS - Mormons. This forum is generally for theists only, and is generaly not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theists may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.
Due to the sensitive nature of the LDS Temple Ceremonies to our LDS posters, we do not allow posting exact text of the temple rituals, articles describing older versions of the ceremony, or links that provide the same information. However discussion of generalities of the ceremony are not off limits. If in doubt, PM the area mod or an Admin
Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Forum Rules: Here
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Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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7UP: Admitting fallibility is not the same as "throwing under the bus".
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostOf course it's not.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYes, we've seen them get thrown under the bus by Mormons too (on the old Tweb; can't say I've seen it on the new Tweb yet, but give it time).
LDS folks have more realistic expectations of what prophets and apostles are like in real life. Unlike ancient apostles and prophets, where we have limited accounts of their lives, Mormons wrote down practically everything that LDS leaders ever said in public, and even a lot of what they said in private. Obviously, this opens them up to more detailed scrutiny, which in all fairness, would likely have had similar flaws revealed if extensive documentation existed with the ancient prophets and apostles. Even within the scriptures, some severe flaws are revealed, even as some apostles in the New Testament church were "racist" against anyone who was not Jewish.
-7up
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Originally posted by seven7up View PostLDS folks have more realistic expectations of what prophets and apostles are like in real life. Unlike ancient apostles and prophets, where we have limited accounts of their lives, Mormons wrote down practically everything that LDS leaders ever said in public, and even a lot of what they said in private.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWell, yeah, and sometimes that was just plain DUMB... I mean... some of your 'prophets' said and did some really dumb things that I can't even IMAGINE real prophets doing.
Every single person , except Jesus, who has ever lived has said and done things that are just plain DUMB. (This is especially true from the perspective of people in a modern society who have unlimited information at our fingertips.)
Get over it. Work on the beams in your own eyes, rather than trying to dissect the motes of people who lived a long time ago in a less progressive culture and when different sentimentalities reigned.
-7up
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Originally posted by seven7up View PostEvery single person , except Jesus, who has ever lived has said and done things that are just plain DUMB.
(This is especially true from the perspective of people in a modern society who have unlimited information at our fingertips.)
Get over it.
Work on the beams in your own eyes,
rather than trying to dissect the motes of people who lived a long time ago in a less progressive culture and when different sentimentalities reigned.
-7up
Your "prophets', claiming to "speak scripture" have said some PROFOUNDLY stupid things, which puts you and your buddies in a "dog ate my homework" mode in trying to explain them.
All you can do is throw the REAL prophets under the bus and besmirch their character and authenticity.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by seven7up View PostEvery single person , except Jesus, who has ever lived has said and done things that are just plain DUMB.
Also, the office of Prophet requires a certain quality... "to whom much is given, much will be required" kind of thing. Are Mormon "prophets", in your opinion, not held to a higher standard than "every single person"?Last edited by Cow Poke; 06-20-2014, 07:17 AM.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWho here bashes the intelligence of Mormons, in general or particular?
"...some of your 'prophets' said and did some really dumb things..."
Aside from it being a terrible analogy - salesmen are EXPECTED to know their product better than the customer -
the thrust can easily be turned in the other direction.
I recall plenty of efforts by Mormons here to lecture us on the Trinity.
I also recall you in particular attempting to co-opt Athanasius in support of the Mormon idea of exaltation without even bothering to read the context from which the quote you like so much was taken.Last edited by NRA-Jeff; 06-20-2014, 11:40 AM."The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven...." Joseph Smith
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWell, yeah, and sometimes that was just plain DUMB... I mean... some of your 'prophets' said and did some really dumb things that I can't even IMAGINE real prophets doing."The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven...." Joseph Smith
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOK, try to think about this, Seven. Prophets are not "every person", and "every person" is not a prophet. Prophets of the Bible are very special people -- not just Joe Sixpack. Are you claiming that the Mormon "prophets" are "lesser than" Bible Prophets?
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAlso, the office of Prophet requires a certain quality... "to whom much is given, much will be required" kind of thing. Are Mormon "prophets", in your opinion, not held to a higher standard than "every single person"?
Probably not.
-7up
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Originally posted by seven7up View PostNo, I am claiming that Mormon prophets are equally fallible as Bible prophets. Biblical prophets, get drunk and sleep with their own family members, they kill/murder, take up concubines, deny Christ, etc. However, we have much more documentation on LDS prophets, which give critics more material to scrutinize.
Let's take Brigham Young, for example. If I had been raised the way he was raised, with his protestant upbringing and the culture in which he lived, and the understanding that people had in his day, would I have done better than him in bringing the Saints out west, colonizing the mountainous desert and leading the Latter-Day Saints through those trying times?
Probably not.
-7up
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Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View PostYou believe the Bible's claims about what OT prophets said, right? Don't you agree that some of them said and did what could be termed "really dumb things" that doubters couldn't even IMAGINE real prophets doing?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSmith had a golden opportunity to "write on a clean slate" with his alleged "restoration" of the Church -- and the best he could do was "just like everybody else, and WORSE"?"The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven...." Joseph Smith
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Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View PostSorry, you lost me. I was talking about how a person's words or actions are perceived as being dumb by people who are prejudiced against that person. To an atheist, the "god" of the Bible had a golden opportunity to choose "prophets" who would always say and do things that would always be perceived by everyone as being awesome. To an atheist, the God of the Bible failed miserably at doing that. To you, Joseph Smith is like how an atheist might feel about OT prophets.
It's the wacko weirdo CULT leaders who claim this extra-biblical power to speak for God.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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I think this is the Mormon attempt to equate Mormon 'prophets' with the best of the REAL Prophets, not try to throw them under the bus by claiming they're "just good ol' boys" like those sinful prophets of old.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by seven7up View PostNo, I am claiming that Mormon prophets are equally fallible as Bible prophets. Biblical prophets, get drunk and sleep with their own family members, they kill/murder, take up concubines, deny Christ, etc. However, we have much more documentation on LDS prophets, which give critics more material to scrutinize.
What prophet did any of those things? Not all people mentioned in the Bible were prophets.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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