No true Free Will exists if Ex Nihilo creation is true

[Sparko]

Let's separate the two arguments, because you are correct that I am taking this on from 2 different angles.

1) God knows what characteristics of an individual would lead to certain choices in certain circumstances. God is creating every single characteristic (every aspect) of a person's being, purely from God's own mind. Therefore, the person who God creates will do exactly what God created that individual to do, in every circumstance.

OK you seem to be confusing Ex Nihilo with Ominscience. You are using a classical argument against God knowing the future. I will go into that in a minute but first:

There is no difference between God creating out of existing material, or creating the material and then creating the universe. Nothing except what he starts with. Once the universe is created, it is the same universe in both cases. Even starting with existing material, your LDS God, if he was omniscient, could use that material to create anything he wanted to and have absolute control over everything down to which way each molecule will move around.

2) God knows what "choices" a person is going to make before God even decides to create that person from God's own imagination. There are an infinite number of possible persons that God could create. Different possible persons would do different things in different circumstances. By deciding which person to create, knowing the outcome, God determines all outcomes.

OK now on to Omniscience. If God knows what someone is going to choose that does not mean that God is making them choose it. It just means he KNOWS what they will choose because he can see the future. If they were to decide to do something else, God would know that too. If I tape a baseball game where team A wins against Team B, then could somehow send that video back in time a week and give it to you, then you would know which team would win. You are not influencing their decisions, you just know them. If by chance Team B won, then you would know that too. If I never sent you the video, the outcome would still be the same even though you didn't know about it. Knowing the future free will choices of someone doesn't take away their free will choices.

Again that has nothing to do with Ex Nihilo.

Ex Nihilo never says that God creates every instant in the universe from start to finish as a fixed thing. It doesn't even mean that he creates YOU specifically. Your mom and dad created you. God might or might not influence which sperm meets which egg, and various circumstances in your life that form you into who you are today. But that would be the case in the LDS version of God or a God who created Ex Nihilo (out of nothing). Ex Nihilo just refers to HOW God creates and specifically to the initial creation.

If I could create ex nihilo and you could not, and we each wanted to make a statue, I would just snap my finger and the statue would appear. You would take a large rock and carve out the statue, but when we are done, the statues are the same. From that point forward there is no difference in what happens with that statue. They are identical.

1) If a mouse decides to make a right turn, where did that decision come from? Why did the mouse turn right? The choices we make, and the behaviors we have are a reflection of our internal characteristics. Where do those internal characteristics come from? Who created them?

The mouse has a mind and likes and dislikes. It is a unique individual mouse that likes what is at its end of the maze. So it explored the maze, found the reward and memorized it. Now it can go there any time it wants that treat. It learned. It made free will choices.

You are only working from the false premise that free will exists in Ex Nihilo to begin with (see argument 1). The problem is, as my video shows in detail, that if God decides to create mouse A from God's own mind, then God had already predestined where the mouse will end up, as well as every step along the way.

But nothing in Ex Nihilo says God creates people Ex Nihilo out of his own mind. It refers to creating the universe. Do you regularly notice anyone popping into existence out of nothing? I don't.

Would God place mouse 2 into the maze, if God did not want mouse 2 to go to point B?

If God knows which mouse would accomplish his goals, then that is the mouse he would use to accomplish his goals. Why did God use Moses instead of someone else? Because God knew that Moses would accomplish his plan. Moses still had free will and God even had to correct him a few times along the way. So we do have free will, and God CAN override that free will if he wants to by forcing us to do something if he needs us to (like Jonah).

[seven7up]

Even in the video, your hypothetical God has to decide to create person A or person B, depending on what choices that person will make that aligns with his plans. In other words, they have free choice and God chose which one to create. If they had no free will, then God would not have to decide which person to create, because anyone he created would do exactly what he made them do.

Let's separate the two arguments, because you are correct that I am taking this on from 2 different angles.

1) God knows what characteristics of an individual would lead to certain choices in certain circumstances. God is creating every single characteristic (every aspect) of a person's being, purely from God's own mind. Therefore, the person who God creates will do exactly what God created that individual to do, in every circumstance.

2) God knows what "choices" a person is going to make before God even decides to create that person from God's own imagination. There are an infinite number of possible persons that God could create. Different possible persons would do different things in different circumstances. By deciding which person to create, knowing the outcome, God determines all outcomes.

If I have a maze with two end points, and two mice, and I know that mouse one will choose to go to point A, and mouse two will choose to go to point B, that doesn't mean that the mice don't freely choose their path. They clearly do.

You have to look a little closer at the Ex Nihilo doctrine, before you realize that they don't.

1) If a mouse decides to make a right turn, where did that decision come from? Why did the mouse turn right? The choices we make, and the behaviors we have are a reflection of our internal characteristics. Where do those internal characteristics come from? Who created them?

So, if I want a mouse to go to point A, I would put mouse 1 into the maze. He would still use his free will choice to go to point A and it would align with my desired plan. I did not destroy his free will, I just took advantage of my knowledge of what it would be to accomplish my plan.

You are only working from the false premise that free will exists in Ex Nihilo to begin with (see argument 1). The problem is, as my video shows in detail, that if God decides to create mouse A from God's own mind, then God had already predestined where the mouse will end up, as well as every step along the way.

Would God place mouse 2 into the maze, if God did not want mouse 2 to go to point B?

Oh, and let's say that point A is Heaven and eternal bliss / happiness ... and point B is Hell, eternal damnation with endless suffering and misery.
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And thus this discussion of free will is an introduction to the video series, which eventually leads into the bigger problem of evil and suffering which is a devastating argument against the Ex Nihilo framework.

-7up

[The Remonstrant]

Just another example of how unbiblical notions of free will get us into trouble.

It is always refreshing to see atheists and Calvinists in essential agreement with each other on certain points. Neo-atheism's biological determinism is the counterpart to Reformed-Calvinism's exhaustive divine determinism (EDD).¹ Neither allow for anything resembling libertarian human freedom, with or without a God (or god, if one prefers).

From my perspective, however, if Scripture provides support for creatio ex nihilo and indeterministic (or nondeterministic) human freedom, I am content leaving philosophical enigmas aside and affirming both. For my part, I would personally be more inclined to warn others of "unbiblical notions" of divine sovereignty (as in EDD) and the nature of the world God has created rather than the purported dangers of libertarian freedom.


Note

¹ While I recognize that the individual who started this thread is a Mormon and not an atheist, I find it an interesting observation nevertheless.

[Kind Debater]

Oh good, there's another new thread. It's only been 5 minutes since someone created a new thread where 7up singlehandedly takes on CP, Bill, Sparko and anyone else who cares to join. I mean, we wouldn't want you to get bored or anything, 7up. It's too bad, though, that you have to bring up your philosophical and moral objections to "traditional" Christianity again, because as you know that sort of thing bores me to tears. Debate...God's moral perfection...people's relationships with God...totally not my thing.

I guess I should look on the bright side, though. At least I won't be tempted to spend hours posting, only to worry that you'll get overwhelmed with the sheer number of posts and/or Sierra Mist (i.e. your better half ) will get ticked off and hide your computer in the dryer and all my effort will have gone to naught. Nope, no problem here at all. My house will be totally spic and span and I'll have done all my reading for my church classes because I won't even be tempted to start posting again.

[Sparko]

Your video fails horribly.

Even in the video, your hypothetical God has to decide to create person A or person B, depending on what choices that person will make that aligns with his plans. In other words, they have free choice and God chose which one to create. If they had no free will, then God would not have to decide which person to create, because anyone he created would do exactly what he made them do.

If I have a maze with two end points, and two mice, and I know that mouse one will choose to go to point A, and mouse two will choose to go to point B, that doesn't mean that the mice don't freely choose their path. They clearly do. So if I want a mouse to go to point A, I would put mouse 1 into the maze. He would still use his free will choice to go to point A and it would align with my desired plan. I did not destroy his free will, I just took advantage of my knowledge of what it would be to accomplish my plan.

[RBerman]

Just another example of how unbiblical notions of free will get us into trouble.

[seven7up]

Well, I copied our posts to another thread. I'd honestly rather take the time to do one video per thread honestly. Let's just stop with this thread and the other one and start with video #1, deal?

OK

Ex Nihilo is criticized in Video 1 by first describing the concept and then entering the discussion of Free Will and how it cannot exist in a real sense under Ex Nihilo creation theology. While the video is 13:34 minutes long, really it is just the first 10 minutes to deal with.

So, the first video introduces the series of videos and introduces the Free will discussion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWsQiyc832k

Video 1B goes into a more detailed deconstruction of free will in the Ex Nihilo framework and is also only 10 minutes of material:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxOiYvKDack

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It is best to start with the first video just so we have the ground work laid out, however, you may want to at least watch both before getting into it.

Now, also keep this in mind, that in the second video, I only use "randomness" as a representation of someone making a free will choice from various options. In fact, I specifically say that it is only meant to be "representative" of free will choices in the video. I repeat, I am not saying that randomness and free will are necessarily the same thing. Even when randomness and free will choices are not considered the same thing, the logic of my argumentation still holds.

Enjoy.

-7up