Originally posted by seven7up
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7UP: However, think of the physical procreation of a child. Can you choose if the child has red hair or brown?
You are missing the point of the analogy. I am comparing the concept of how there are characteristics of our physical offspring that are out of control , to the concept that there are characteristics of God's spiritual offspring that are out of God's control.
7UP: Can you choose the child's personality traits?
You mean by force?
Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
Do you think that this scripture teaches that God will change people against their will?
7UP: What if the generation of all of the spirits has to occur all at once and some that are procreated are good and others are bad?
It is true that there are many possibilities, and we don't know the details. I was just providing one of the possibilities for you. I don't see how you think that helps your argument against me.
7UP: The point is that there are non-divine realities that God must deal with in LDS theology.
That is not the case in Ex Nihilo theology, because God was the only thing in existence before God decided to create.
Then God created beings who would fulfill nothing more and nothing less than the very actions that God himself imagined them to fulfill before God even decided to bring those beings into reality. Thus it is God's own mind which determined every action that has ever been acted out.
So, God has no choice but to create any kind of being that enters God's imagination?
7UP: You wish that were the case, but you fail to admit that there is a fundamental difference between the implications from your theology and the LDS view.
Joseph F. Smith said in that quote, "there is something called intelligence which always existed. It is the real eternal part of man, which was not created or made".
(Is God a slave to entities of free will?)
7UP: Again, I will point out your contradictory arguments. Here is what you are attempting: The rapist demands to rape, and God has no choice but to allow it. He can command the rapist not to rape, but the rapist can deny the command. Thus: God is a slave to the rapist.
Griffin: Second, there might be some eternal, uncreated, necessary principles (beyond purely logical truths) about the way these actualities can be ordered which limit the sorts of situations that are really possible. - Griffin
7UP: "Principles" have no will. They have no personal relationship with others (ie are not interpersonal). Furthermore, that is like arguing against Christians who say that God cannot overcome logical contradictions. Are logical contradictions, or is logic in general, more powerful than the evangelical God?
According to your theology there are not, but there might be.
7UP: Therefore, God could logically and lawfully create a rational and moral being of free will out of nothing.
You are trying to but "that being" BEFORE God, but in your theology God created that being based on what God imagined that being to be BEFORE God even created that being. Indeed, God created that being to be what that being is, in Ex Nihilo theology.
7UP: If God's nature limits God to creating imperfect creatures from God's own imagination, then that is an indictment against God's nature or abilities.
You have no good explanation.
7UP: Griffith is merely bringing up the same kinds of points and concept that I have explained.
You have not demonstrated that in the slightest.
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7UP: Wrong. AND you added mockery in order to make an even bigger fool of yourself. Nice.
And in this life or the next, you will be very sorry that you did mock. Let's hope it is in this life.
7UP: I am only raising the possibility that free will can be part of the process. Free will choices does not necessarily "trump God's sovereignty". You know that. It is becoming abundantly clear that you like to speak out of both sides of your mouth. Sorry Bill. I won't let you get away with it. I will point it out every time you attempt it.
He did not say that they weren't. He only said that the details are not specifically defined. This possibility, and many others, exist.
7UP: As you can see, the burden falls on your theology and on your God, because that entity did not exist AT ALL, before God decided how, if, and when to create it. Then why actively create from nothing those that God knows won't choose Him, or with characteristics which God knows will lead those individuals not to choose Him.
7UP: As we have discussed, merely being irrational will lead to sinful choices. Is God not capable of creating rational beings?
Therefore, in your theology, God is capable of creating rational beings out of nothing, but God chooses to create an inferior/irrational being instead. But then God punishes that being because of the results that occur due to the irrationality of that being, which is an irrationality that God purposefully created.
7UP: In my theology, irrationality may be an eternally inherent characteristic.
However, with Ex Nihilo, the irrational being was created by God. That being is what God created it to be, nothing more and nothing less. This pertains to the second argument in the Free Will videos. Creating a rational being out of nothing, and then praising it for being rational OR creating an irrational being and punishing the being for being irrational ... is not a sensible point of view. I equated it to God creating Helium and rewarding Helium for rising in air or creating Lead and punishing it for sinking in water.
7UP: There isn't the same control. There are eternal non divine realities in LDS theology that are outside of God's control.
No. The very fact that these intelligences exist, is outside of God's control. The characteristics that may exist within this eternal part of man are outside of God's control.
7UP: Your mind is not flexible enough to comprehend this concept, OR you are being purposefully obtuse.
Orthodox Christians just claim that they believe in free will, without understanding exactly how their theological framework denies the possibility. They are living in denial and ignorance.
7UP: Surely you can see the difference between
1) God allowing an eternal free agent, who has certain characteristics, to make choices
2) God creating the creature, and every single characteristic that the creature possesses, from God's own imagination
And we are going through the details now.
-7up
You are missing the point of the analogy. I am comparing the concept of how there are characteristics of our physical offspring that are out of control , to the concept that there are characteristics of God's spiritual offspring that are out of God's control.
7UP: Can you choose the child's personality traits?
You mean by force?
Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
Do you think that this scripture teaches that God will change people against their will?
7UP: What if the generation of all of the spirits has to occur all at once and some that are procreated are good and others are bad?
It is true that there are many possibilities, and we don't know the details. I was just providing one of the possibilities for you. I don't see how you think that helps your argument against me.
7UP: The point is that there are non-divine realities that God must deal with in LDS theology.
That is not the case in Ex Nihilo theology, because God was the only thing in existence before God decided to create.
Then God created beings who would fulfill nothing more and nothing less than the very actions that God himself imagined them to fulfill before God even decided to bring those beings into reality. Thus it is God's own mind which determined every action that has ever been acted out.
So, God has no choice but to create any kind of being that enters God's imagination?
7UP: You wish that were the case, but you fail to admit that there is a fundamental difference between the implications from your theology and the LDS view.
Joseph F. Smith said in that quote, "there is something called intelligence which always existed. It is the real eternal part of man, which was not created or made".
(Is God a slave to entities of free will?)
7UP: Again, I will point out your contradictory arguments. Here is what you are attempting: The rapist demands to rape, and God has no choice but to allow it. He can command the rapist not to rape, but the rapist can deny the command. Thus: God is a slave to the rapist.
Griffin: Second, there might be some eternal, uncreated, necessary principles (beyond purely logical truths) about the way these actualities can be ordered which limit the sorts of situations that are really possible. - Griffin
7UP: "Principles" have no will. They have no personal relationship with others (ie are not interpersonal). Furthermore, that is like arguing against Christians who say that God cannot overcome logical contradictions. Are logical contradictions, or is logic in general, more powerful than the evangelical God?
According to your theology there are not, but there might be.
7UP: Therefore, God could logically and lawfully create a rational and moral being of free will out of nothing.
You are trying to but "that being" BEFORE God, but in your theology God created that being based on what God imagined that being to be BEFORE God even created that being. Indeed, God created that being to be what that being is, in Ex Nihilo theology.
7UP: If God's nature limits God to creating imperfect creatures from God's own imagination, then that is an indictment against God's nature or abilities.
You have no good explanation.
7UP: Griffith is merely bringing up the same kinds of points and concept that I have explained.
You have not demonstrated that in the slightest.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - -- - -
7UP: Wrong. AND you added mockery in order to make an even bigger fool of yourself. Nice.
And in this life or the next, you will be very sorry that you did mock. Let's hope it is in this life.
7UP: I am only raising the possibility that free will can be part of the process. Free will choices does not necessarily "trump God's sovereignty". You know that. It is becoming abundantly clear that you like to speak out of both sides of your mouth. Sorry Bill. I won't let you get away with it. I will point it out every time you attempt it.
He did not say that they weren't. He only said that the details are not specifically defined. This possibility, and many others, exist.
7UP: As you can see, the burden falls on your theology and on your God, because that entity did not exist AT ALL, before God decided how, if, and when to create it. Then why actively create from nothing those that God knows won't choose Him, or with characteristics which God knows will lead those individuals not to choose Him.
7UP: As we have discussed, merely being irrational will lead to sinful choices. Is God not capable of creating rational beings?
Therefore, in your theology, God is capable of creating rational beings out of nothing, but God chooses to create an inferior/irrational being instead. But then God punishes that being because of the results that occur due to the irrationality of that being, which is an irrationality that God purposefully created.
7UP: In my theology, irrationality may be an eternally inherent characteristic.
However, with Ex Nihilo, the irrational being was created by God. That being is what God created it to be, nothing more and nothing less. This pertains to the second argument in the Free Will videos. Creating a rational being out of nothing, and then praising it for being rational OR creating an irrational being and punishing the being for being irrational ... is not a sensible point of view. I equated it to God creating Helium and rewarding Helium for rising in air or creating Lead and punishing it for sinking in water.
7UP: There isn't the same control. There are eternal non divine realities in LDS theology that are outside of God's control.
No. The very fact that these intelligences exist, is outside of God's control. The characteristics that may exist within this eternal part of man are outside of God's control.
7UP: Your mind is not flexible enough to comprehend this concept, OR you are being purposefully obtuse.
Orthodox Christians just claim that they believe in free will, without understanding exactly how their theological framework denies the possibility. They are living in denial and ignorance.
7UP: Surely you can see the difference between
1) God allowing an eternal free agent, who has certain characteristics, to make choices
2) God creating the creature, and every single characteristic that the creature possesses, from God's own imagination
And we are going through the details now.
-7up
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