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No true Free Will exists if Ex Nihilo creation is true

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  • No true Free Will exists if Ex Nihilo creation is true

    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Well, I copied our posts to another thread. I'd honestly rather take the time to do one video per thread honestly. Let's just stop with this thread and the other one and start with video #1, deal?

    OK

    Ex Nihilo is criticized in Video 1 by first describing the concept and then entering the discussion of Free Will and how it cannot exist in a real sense under Ex Nihilo creation theology. While the video is 13:34 minutes long, really it is just the first 10 minutes to deal with.

    So, the first video introduces the series of videos and introduces the Free will discussion:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWsQiyc832k

    Video 1B goes into a more detailed deconstruction of free will in the Ex Nihilo framework and is also only 10 minutes of material:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxOiYvKDack

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    It is best to start with the first video just so we have the ground work laid out, however, you may want to at least watch both before getting into it.

    Now, also keep this in mind, that in the second video, I only use "randomness" as a representation of someone making a free will choice from various options. In fact, I specifically say that it is only meant to be "representative" of free will choices in the video. I repeat, I am not saying that randomness and free will are necessarily the same thing. Even when randomness and free will choices are not considered the same thing, the logic of my argumentation still holds.

    Enjoy.

    -7up

  • #2
    Just another example of how unbiblical notions of free will get us into trouble.

    Comment


    • #3
      Your video fails horribly.

      Even in the video, your hypothetical God has to decide to create person A or person B, depending on what choices that person will make that aligns with his plans. In other words, they have free choice and God chose which one to create. If they had no free will, then God would not have to decide which person to create, because anyone he created would do exactly what he made them do.

      If I have a maze with two end points, and two mice, and I know that mouse one will choose to go to point A, and mouse two will choose to go to point B, that doesn't mean that the mice don't freely choose their path. They clearly do. So if I want a mouse to go to point A, I would put mouse 1 into the maze. He would still use his free will choice to go to point A and it would align with my desired plan. I did not destroy his free will, I just took advantage of my knowledge of what it would be to accomplish my plan.

      Comment


      • #4
        Oh good, there's another new thread. It's only been 5 minutes since someone created a new thread where 7up singlehandedly takes on CP, Bill, Sparko and anyone else who cares to join. I mean, we wouldn't want you to get bored or anything, 7up. It's too bad, though, that you have to bring up your philosophical and moral objections to "traditional" Christianity again, because as you know that sort of thing bores me to tears. Debate...God's moral perfection...people's relationships with God...totally not my thing.

        I guess I should look on the bright side, though. At least I won't be tempted to spend hours posting, only to worry that you'll get overwhelmed with the sheer number of posts and/or Sierra Mist (i.e. your better half ) will get ticked off and hide your computer in the dryer and all my effort will have gone to naught. Nope, no problem here at all. My house will be totally spic and span and I'll have done all my reading for my church classes because I won't even be tempted to start posting again.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by RBerman View Post
          Just another example of how unbiblical notions of free will get us into trouble.
          It is always refreshing to see atheists and Calvinists in essential agreement with each other on certain points. Neo-atheism's biological determinism is the counterpart to Reformed-Calvinism's exhaustive divine determinism (EDD).1 Neither allow for anything resembling libertarian human freedom, with or without a God (or god, if one prefers).

          From my perspective, however, if Scripture provides support for creatio ex nihilo and indeterministic (or nondeterministic) human freedom, I am content leaving philosophical enigmas aside and affirming both. For my part, I would personally be more inclined to warn others of "unbiblical notions" of divine sovereignty (as in EDD) and the nature of the world God has created rather than the purported dangers of libertarian freedom.


          Note

          1 While I recognize that the individual who started this thread is a Mormon and not an atheist, I find it an interesting observation nevertheless.
          Last edited by The Remonstrant; 05-06-2014, 10:46 AM.
          For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Even in the video, your hypothetical God has to decide to create person A or person B, depending on what choices that person will make that aligns with his plans. In other words, they have free choice and God chose which one to create. If they had no free will, then God would not have to decide which person to create, because anyone he created would do exactly what he made them do.
            Let's separate the two arguments, because you are correct that I am taking this on from 2 different angles.

            1) God knows what characteristics of an individual would lead to certain choices in certain circumstances. God is creating every single characteristic (every aspect) of a person's being, purely from God's own mind. Therefore, the person who God creates will do exactly what God created that individual to do, in every circumstance.

            2) God knows what "choices" a person is going to make before God even decides to create that person from God's own imagination. There are an infinite number of possible persons that God could create. Different possible persons would do different things in different circumstances. By deciding which person to create, knowing the outcome, God determines all outcomes.


            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            If I have a maze with two end points, and two mice, and I know that mouse one will choose to go to point A, and mouse two will choose to go to point B, that doesn't mean that the mice don't freely choose their path. They clearly do.
            You have to look a little closer at the Ex Nihilo doctrine, before you realize that they don't.

            1) If a mouse decides to make a right turn, where did that decision come from? Why did the mouse turn right? The choices we make, and the behaviors we have are a reflection of our internal characteristics. Where do those internal characteristics come from? Who created them?


            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            So, if I want a mouse to go to point A, I would put mouse 1 into the maze. He would still use his free will choice to go to point A and it would align with my desired plan. I did not destroy his free will, I just took advantage of my knowledge of what it would be to accomplish my plan.
            You are only working from the false premise that free will exists in Ex Nihilo to begin with (see argument 1). The problem is, as my video shows in detail, that if God decides to create mouse A from God's own mind, then God had already predestined where the mouse will end up, as well as every step along the way.

            Would God place mouse 2 into the maze, if God did not want mouse 2 to go to point B?

            Oh, and let's say that point A is Heaven and eternal bliss / happiness ... and point B is Hell, eternal damnation with endless suffering and misery.
            - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --

            And thus this discussion of free will is an introduction to the video series, which eventually leads into the bigger problem of evil and suffering which is a devastating argument against the Ex Nihilo framework.

            -7up

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seven7up View Post
              Let's separate the two arguments, because you are correct that I am taking this on from 2 different angles.

              1) God knows what characteristics of an individual would lead to certain choices in certain circumstances. God is creating every single characteristic (every aspect) of a person's being, purely from God's own mind. Therefore, the person who God creates will do exactly what God created that individual to do, in every circumstance.
              OK you seem to be confusing Ex Nihilo with Ominscience. You are using a classical argument against God knowing the future. I will go into that in a minute but first:

              There is no difference between God creating out of existing material, or creating the material and then creating the universe. Nothing except what he starts with. Once the universe is created, it is the same universe in both cases. Even starting with existing material, your LDS God, if he was omniscient, could use that material to create anything he wanted to and have absolute control over everything down to which way each molecule will move around.



              2) God knows what "choices" a person is going to make before God even decides to create that person from God's own imagination. There are an infinite number of possible persons that God could create. Different possible persons would do different things in different circumstances. By deciding which person to create, knowing the outcome, God determines all outcomes.
              OK now on to Omniscience. If God knows what someone is going to choose that does not mean that God is making them choose it. It just means he KNOWS what they will choose because he can see the future. If they were to decide to do something else, God would know that too. If I tape a baseball game where team A wins against Team B, then could somehow send that video back in time a week and give it to you, then you would know which team would win. You are not influencing their decisions, you just know them. If by chance Team B won, then you would know that too. If I never sent you the video, the outcome would still be the same even though you didn't know about it. Knowing the future free will choices of someone doesn't take away their free will choices.

              Again that has nothing to do with Ex Nihilo.

              Ex Nihilo never says that God creates every instant in the universe from start to finish as a fixed thing. It doesn't even mean that he creates YOU specifically. Your mom and dad created you. God might or might not influence which sperm meets which egg, and various circumstances in your life that form you into who you are today. But that would be the case in the LDS version of God or a God who created Ex Nihilo (out of nothing). Ex Nihilo just refers to HOW God creates and specifically to the initial creation.

              If I could create ex nihilo and you could not, and we each wanted to make a statue, I would just snap my finger and the statue would appear. You would take a large rock and carve out the statue, but when we are done, the statues are the same. From that point forward there is no difference in what happens with that statue. They are identical.



              1) If a mouse decides to make a right turn, where did that decision come from? Why did the mouse turn right? The choices we make, and the behaviors we have are a reflection of our internal characteristics. Where do those internal characteristics come from? Who created them?
              The mouse has a mind and likes and dislikes. It is a unique individual mouse that likes what is at its end of the maze. So it explored the maze, found the reward and memorized it. Now it can go there any time it wants that treat. It learned. It made free will choices.





              You are only working from the false premise that free will exists in Ex Nihilo to begin with (see argument 1). The problem is, as my video shows in detail, that if God decides to create mouse A from God's own mind, then God had already predestined where the mouse will end up, as well as every step along the way.
              But nothing in Ex Nihilo says God creates people Ex Nihilo out of his own mind. It refers to creating the universe. Do you regularly notice anyone popping into existence out of nothing? I don't.


              Would God place mouse 2 into the maze, if God did not want mouse 2 to go to point B?
              If God knows which mouse would accomplish his goals, then that is the mouse he would use to accomplish his goals. Why did God use Moses instead of someone else? Because God knew that Moses would accomplish his plan. Moses still had free will and God even had to correct him a few times along the way. So we do have free will, and God CAN override that free will if he wants to by forcing us to do something if he needs us to (like Jonah).

              Comment


              • #8
                This turns into a big whine on God "should have been able to" only create those who would choose salvation.
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                  Would God place mouse 2 into the maze, if God did not want mouse 2 to go to point B?
                  Yes.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    OK you seem to be confusing Ex Nihilo with Ominscience. You are using a classical argument against God knowing the future. I will go into that in a minute but first:

                    There is no difference between God creating out of existing material, or creating the material and then creating the universe. Nothing except what he starts with. Once the universe is created, it is the same universe in both cases. Even starting with existing material, your LDS God, if he was omniscient, could use that material to create anything he wanted to and have absolute control over everything down to which way each molecule will move around.
                    In LDS doctrine, we are not just "molecules". Let me give you a few quotes here to help you understand where Mormons are coming from here. First, let's Joseph Smith who spoke about this:

                    "The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-eternal with God himself. . . . Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end."

                    "[T]he mind of man—the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; . . . We say that God himself is a self-existent being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles."


                    Here is an Ensign article that discusses this as well:

                    The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation

                    Eternal life is also possible, in part, because an element of every human being is divine and eternal. Joseph Smith used several different terms to refer to that eternal essence—spirit, soul, mind, and intelligence. He received the knowledge that “man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.” (D&C 93:29.) He taught that “the mind of man is as immortal as God himself” and that “the Spirit of Man [meaning intelligence] is not a created being.”

                    He did not define, however, this element’s form and substance, nor did he identify its attributes, other than its eternal nature. This eternal element of intelligence or light of truth is something other than the spirit bodies God created later; these later entities were “the intelligences that were organized” and were the spirits that Abraham saw. ... In our own primeval births, the eternal intelligence part of us was “organized”.



                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    OK now on to Omniscience. If God knows what someone is going to choose that does not mean that God is making them choose it.
                    I agree with you. God's foreknowledge, in and of itself, does not determine outcomes. It is the combination of Ex Nihilo, Omniscience and Omonipotence. In the video, I make the inference that foreknowledge alone is not the problem. Start at 4:00 , where I give the Ex Nihilo view. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxOiYvKDack

                    Then at 6:50, I give a contrasting view, whereby God is not creating Ex Nihilo, but instead for entities of free will that already exist.

                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Again that has nothing to do with Ex Nihilo.
                    My argument has to do with Ex Nihilo. You are arguing against the concept that you wish I were making, rather than the argument I am actually making. You are going to have to pay closer attention than that.

                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Ex Nihilo never says that God creates every instant in the universe from start to finish as a fixed thing. It doesn't even mean that he creates YOU specifically. Your mom and dad created you. God might or might not influence which sperm meets which egg, and various circumstances in your life that form you into who you are today. But that would be the case in the LDS version of God or a God who created Ex Nihilo (out of nothing). Ex Nihilo just refers to HOW God creates and specifically to the initial creation.
                    In mainstream Christian theology, where does your spirit come from? When does your spirit come into existence?

                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    If I could create ex nihilo and you could not, and we each wanted to make a statue, I would just snap my finger and the statue would appear. You would take a large rock and carve out the statue, but when we are done, the statues are the same. From that point forward there is no difference in what happens with that statue. They are identical.
                    No, because IF you wanted to make a statue out of superior characteristics, ex nihilo, let's say out of gold for example, .... I would be stuck with working on sandstone, or whatever material I had available to work with.

                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    The mouse has a mind and likes and dislikes. It is a unique individual mouse that likes what is at its end of the maze.
                    Who created the mouse's mind, and therefore ultimately created the mouse's likes and dislikes?

                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    But nothing in Ex Nihilo says God creates people Ex Nihilo out of his own mind. It refers to creating the universe. Do you regularly notice anyone popping into existence out of nothing? I don't.
                    People are included as part of the the Ex Nihilo creation in your theology. Consider this quote from Ravi Zacharias and Norman Geisler:

                    "The only place the world "existed" before God made it was as an idea in God's mind."

                    You can replace the word "world" with anything that God imagined before creation. The only place that "you" existed before God created the Universe was as an idea in God's mind. The only place that "Hitler" existed before God created the Universe was as an idea in God's mind. The only place that "rape" existed before God created the Universe was as an idea in God's mind.

                    You get the idea.

                    -7up

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Quote Originally Posted by seven7up
                      Would God place mouse 2 into the maze, if God did not want mouse 2 to go to point B?



                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      Yes.

                      You nailed it Bill. That is exactly the Calvinist perspective, which is the logical conclusion from Ex Nihilo doctrine. God creates people to go to hell. In fact, in that theology, God created all of us from God's own mind in such a way that the grand majority of us would end up in misery and damnation forever. ... and puts the blame squarely on the creations which God conjured up purely from His own imagination.

                      When really, if God knew someone would go to hell, and didn't want that person to end up in hell, then God could have simply NOT created that person in the first place.


                      God created me to be Mormon Bill. If you have a problem with it, take it up with Him. I don't have a say in the matter ... right?


                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      This turns into a big whine on God "should have been able to" only create those who would choose salvation.
                      No. I don't have to whine about a false and invented theology. I just point out the problems that exist inside the framework of that false and invented theology.


                      -7up
                      Last edited by seven7up; 05-07-2014, 11:08 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                        In LDS doctrine, we are not just "molecules". Let me give you a few quotes here to help you understand where Mormons are coming from here. First, let's Joseph Smith who spoke about this:

                        "The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-eternal with God himself. . . . Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end."

                        "[T]he mind of man—the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; . . . We say that God himself is a self-existent being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles."


                        Here is an Ensign article that discusses this as well:

                        The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation

                        Eternal life is also possible, in part, because an element of every human being is divine and eternal. Joseph Smith used several different terms to refer to that eternal essence—spirit, soul, mind, and intelligence. He received the knowledge that “man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.” (D&C 93:29.) He taught that “the mind of man is as immortal as God himself” and that “the Spirit of Man [meaning intelligence] is not a created being.”

                        He did not define, however, this element’s form and substance, nor did he identify its attributes, other than its eternal nature. This eternal element of intelligence or light of truth is something other than the spirit bodies God created later; these later entities were “the intelligences that were organized” and were the spirits that Abraham saw. ... In our own primeval births, the eternal intelligence part of us was “organized”.





                        I agree with you. God's foreknowledge, in and of itself, does not determine outcomes. It is the combination of Ex Nihilo, Omniscience and Omonipotence. In the video, I make the inference that foreknowledge alone is not the problem. Start at 4:00 , where I give the Ex Nihilo view. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxOiYvKDack

                        Then at 6:50, I give a contrasting view, whereby God is not creating Ex Nihilo, but instead for entities of free will that already exist.
                        You are still making the assumption that God could not create our spirits with free will and end up with the exact same spirit as if it existed forever as in the LDS scenario. He could. That is what omnipotence is.






                        My argument has to do with Ex Nihilo. You are arguing against the concept that you wish I were making, rather than the argument I am actually making. You are going to have to pay closer attention than that.



                        In mainstream Christian theology, where does your spirit come from? When does your spirit come into existence?
                        It is created during conception. I don't believe that God chooses to personally make your spirit. I believe it is all part of the process of being conceived. Just like God didn't choose your parents and your genetic makeup. He KNEW you would be born, but I don't think he forced your entire lineage just to create you personally. Other than extreme calvinists, I don't think any Christian thinks that.

                        Let me ask you a question. When your God creates spirit babies, who decides which intelligences will inhabit them out of the infinite number of intelligences out there? How was the intelligence of Jesus chosen from among those intelligences and put into a spirit baby? Did the Father decide, or did he just get really lucky that his very first son was so good and perfect, better than any other intelligence out there?

                        No, because IF you wanted to make a statue out of superior characteristics, ex nihilo, let's say out of gold for example, .... I would be stuck with working on sandstone, or whatever material I had available to work with.
                        I was using an example of coming up with the same statue by two different means: You doing it by carving, me doing it by fiat. In that scenario, the statues would be identical at the end. There is nothing to stop an all powerful God from creating people with free will just because he created the universe out of nothing. Whether he started with nothing or a pile of sand, the universe once created could be the same universe.

                        Who created the mouse's mind, and therefore ultimately created the mouse's likes and dislikes?
                        The mouse's parents, and his environment.

                        People are included as part of the the Ex Nihilo creation in your theology. Consider this quote from Ravi Zacharias and Norman Geisler:

                        "The only place the world "existed" before God made it was as an idea in God's mind."

                        You can replace the word "world" with anything that God imagined before creation. The only place that "you" existed before God created the Universe was as an idea in God's mind. The only place that "Hitler" existed before God created the Universe was as an idea in God's mind. The only place that "rape" existed before God created the Universe was as an idea in God's mind.

                        You get the idea.

                        -7up
                        Your own God had to create a universe from his own mind too. He just used existing material to shape the universe and the real God created the material and the universe. No difference in free will.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                          Quote Originally Posted by seven7up
                          Would God place mouse 2 into the maze, if God did not want mouse 2 to go to point B?






                          You nailed it Bill. That is exactly the Calvinist perspective, which is the logical conclusion from Ex Nihilo doctrine.
                          So, God places the mouse in the maze, despite not wanting it to go to point B, and you think that is Calvinism??? The Calvinist believes in the absolute sovereignty of God and His ability to have everything He desires occur. If God places the mouse in the maze, it will only go exactly where God wanted it to go. You don't even understand that basic concept...

                          God creates people to go to hell. In fact, in that theology, God created all of us from God's own mind in such a way that the grand majority of us would end up in misery and damnation forever. ... and puts the blame squarely on the creations which God conjured up purely from His own imagination.
                          That's Calvinism for you. Which is why I do not proscribe to it.

                          When really, if God knew someone would go to hell, and didn't want that person to end up in hell, then God could have simply NOT created that person in the first place.
                          Again, here is your real whine. COULD and SHOULD are different concepts. COULD He have? Absolutely. SHOULD He have? That's the real beef you have with Ex Nihilo. You think you know better than God on what He SHOULD do than He does.


                          God created me to be Mormon Bill. If you have a problem with it, take it up with Him. I don't have a say in the matter ... right?
                          From a Calvinist argument, you are correct. But since I am not a Calvinist, I will rely on God's wisdom for creating you the way He chose to and follow His command to preach the Gospel to you, since I do not know God's intent for you.


                          No. I don't have to whine about a false and invented theology. I just point out the problems that exist inside the framework of that false and invented theology.
                          Absolutely false. Sparko has also explained this to you how your complaints are based solely on how YOU prefer that God SHOULD have behaved, not how He CHOSE to do so. Who do you think you are to tell God what He should do? Does He seek YOUR counsel before doing things? Do you not trust His ability to make decisions that conflict with yours?

                          As I said, it is nothing more than a whiny complaint.
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                            God created me to be Mormon Bill. If you have a problem with it, take it up with Him. I don't have a say in the matter ... right?
                            God created you to start Mormon. Just like God created Saul/Paul to start as a persecutor of Christians, until God directly intervened to radically change the direction of his thinking. God created me and Bill to call you to Christ, through whose life and death and resurrection you can be reckoned right before God through faith, not through various efforts to keep God's commands. I pray that God will open your heart to his love.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              That's Calvinism for you. Which is why I do not proscribe to it.
                              "Proscribe" means "forbid." I would be delighted to hear that you do not proscribe Calvinism, but I suspect you meant that you do not subscribe to it.

                              Back to the original idea of this thread: If God is omnipotent, then he is still "on the hook" in some sense for the way the universe is, ex nihilo creation or not.

                              Comment

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