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Is Kolob a star or a planet?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    Thank you. I am once again reminded of the book by the late Walter Martin entitled: "The Maze of Mormonism".

    I tell my wife Mormonism is the most convoluted belief system that I have ever encountered.
    I think, honestly, Smith just made it up as he went along, and it got so convoluted that he, and subsequent "prophets" forgot they already said something OPPOSITE of their new "revelation". But that's OK, cause Mormons teach a very liberal version of "continuing revelation" which allows subsequent "prophets" to say, in effect, "ooooops, that's not what we meant, NOW we mean......"

    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      I've noticed you're on this "double standard" kick lately. And, no, it doesn't bother me in the least that you PRETEND to "see right through me".

      This is a thread, which is essentially mocking the concept that God could dwell on a world. Whether that world is called Earth or Kolob or Frankenberry doesn't matter.

      Most of the Christian world believes that Jesus Christ, who has the "fulness of Deity in bodily form", will reign on a planet.

      If you cannot see the double standard here, then there is not much hope for you.

      -7up

      Comment


      • #33
        No. It the idea that a man could become God. And life on other planets looking just like us... does the year 1938 ring a bell? Life on other planets just makes us think about sci-fi stories! God becoming a human, no biggie.
        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by seven7up View Post
          This is a thread, which is essentially mocking the concept that God could dwell on a world. Whether that world is called Earth or Kolob or Frankenberry doesn't matter.

          Most of the Christian world believes that Jesus Christ, who has the "fulness of Deity in bodily form", will reign on a planet.

          If you cannot see the double standard here, then there is not much hope for you.

          -7up
          No, 7

          It's about your nutty "prophets" who got carried away with saying stupid stuff like there are people living on the moon dressed as Quakers, people living on the SUN, man can become GOD, God and His wife are endlessly producing "spirit children", eternal sealings that are not eternal at all, etc.

          If you can't see how goofy that is, it's on you.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            how can God be omnipresent if he is limited to a flesh and bone body?
            Don't bother to notice that I already answered that question ... on this very thread.

            "God is present with all his creations through his influence, through his government, spirit and power, ..."

            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            And when they say he knows "all things" you have to ask yourself what they mean by that. Does that include the future, for example? 7-up has been arguing against Omniscience in his thread on Ex Nihilo.
            My argument on the other thread does not discount God's foreknowledge. You make the same mistake Bill did. Trust me, this is not similar to other conversations that you have had in the past. You are going to have to grapple with all those assumptions that you hold.

            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Which brings us to Omnipotent. The LDS God cannot created matter, he can only re-arrange it. So how is that omnipotent?
            I don't even have to address whether or not God can or cannot. The question is whether or not God did or didn't or whether or not it is necessary. I argue that no true interpersonal relationships exist within the Ex Nihilo creation theory. If that is true, and it is not necessary then God would have no reason to create Ex Nihilo, even if He could.

            Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
            Thank you. I am once again reminded of the book by the late Walter Martin entitled: "The Maze of Mormonism".
            I tell my wife Mormonism is the most convoluted belief system that I have ever encountered.
            Martin's caricature of Mormonism does not correspond to Mormon beliefs. He attacks an imaginary system instead of the real thing. It is like the example we saw recently about Christians performing "ritualistic cannibalism" on a weekly basis and call it the Lord's Supper.

            Tell me foudroyant, Do you believe that God had his own son killed in order to pay Himself off?

            Those are the kinds of tactics that Walter Martin used. Similar tactics are used by anti-mormons even today.

            -7up

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Ah, the "Christians" in quotation marks!
              That's right. Such an honored title does not apply to you and your ilk, who attempt to bash the faith of others, and unwittingly undermine the pillars of your own faith in the process.

              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              The Mormon idea of "God" is pretty much just a man with superpowers.
              Yeah. And they say that this "man" could "walk on water" , could "ascend into heaven" , could "appear suddenly in a closed room" , could "calm a violent storm by the power of his word" , etc. Stupid mormons right?

              One huge difference between you all and LDS is this. We believe that Colossians 2:9 is true. And you do not.


              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              No, 7

              It's about your nutty "prophets" who got carried away with saying stupid stuff...

              Is it stupid or "nutty" to think that ancient people thought that "evil spirits" are what made people sick? Do you suspect that Moses or Noah knew about microorganisms and their role in pathology?

              Your flawed concept of who and what a prophet was constantly clouds your judgement.

              Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
              Life on other planets just makes us think about sci-fi stories!
              How geocentrist of you. To think that this entire Universe was created only to serve our small little planet. Everything revolves around us right? Don't you even consider the possibility that this is a baseless assumption?


              -7up

              Comment


              • #37
                Why haven't we found any of these inhabited worlds? Shouldn't they have space travel capabilities? Shouldn't the universe be packed with civilizations? Shouldn't astronomers find evidence of alien life if it is so prevalent?
                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                  Why haven't we found any of these inhabited worlds? Shouldn't they have space travel capabilities? Shouldn't the universe be packed with civilizations? Shouldn't astronomers find evidence of alien life if it is so prevalent?

                  You are right.

                  If we haven't seen it, then it doesn't exist.

                  Good point.

                  -7up

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I just think that mormon thought should have some kind of evidence. What about the fact that native Americans do not share a common ancestor with the Jews?
                    http://www.equip.org/articles/dna-sc...s-lds-history/
                    equip.org: ""

                    This article first appeared in the News Watch column of the Christian Research Journal, volume 27, number 1 (2004). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org

                    DNA evidence is offering a serious challenge to the Mormon claim that Native Americans are descended from Hebrew colonizers who came to the Americas around the time Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians hundreds of years before Christ.

                    Mormonism’s founder, Joseph Smith, claimed that an angel named Moroni appeared to him when he was 17 and told him of golden plates buried in a stone box near his family’s home in Palmyra, New York. The angel also told Smith that the plates contained an “account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang.” Smith retrieved the plates, and his translation of them was published in 1830 and titled the Book of Mormon.

                    The title page of the Book of Mormon states it is “an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites — written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel.” The main theme of the book revolves around the descendents of a prophet named Lehi, who was a descendent of the biblical Manasseh, according to Alma 10:3. Nephi and Laman, two of Lehi’s sons, play principal roles at the beginning of the book. Nephi is described as the righteous son of Lehi while Laman is described as wicked. As a result of his evil behavior, Laman and those who followed him were cursed with dark skin. Many Mormons believe Native Americans are the dark-skinned descendents of the Lamanites.

                    Several anthropologists, biologists, and geneticists have challenged this assumption, but probably none have gained more notoriety in recent months than Thomas Murphy, chairman of the Department of Anthropology at Edmonds Community College in Lynnwood, Washington. What makes his claims so intriguing is that he is a member of the Mormon Church.

                    Murphy insists that the Book of Mormon, touted by fellow members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) as the “most correct book on earth,” is incorrect when it claims that Native Americans are of Jewish descent. In a 2002 essay titled “Lamanite Genesis, Genealogy, and Genetics,” he stated, “So far, DNA research lends no support to traditional Mormon beliefs about the origins of Native Americans.”

                    Murphy notes that “DNA research has substantiated the archaeological, cultural, linguistic, and biological evidence that also points overwhelmingly to an Asian origin for Native Americans.” Speaking at a Sunstone Symposium (an annual gathering of more liberal-minded Mormon scholars) in Salt Lake City in August 2002, Murphy asked, “Now what do we as Mormons do? We’ve got a problem. Our beliefs are not validated by the science.” Such a conclusion led to his being summoned by Mormon authorities to a disciplinary hearing. Due to a public outcry, however, his December 8, 2002, appointment with them was postponed indefinitely.
                    Closer to home, eh?http://www.godandscience.org/cults/dna.html
                    Though that doesn't have to do with this topic. If something is supposed to be occurring right now in this universe, there should be some kind of evidence. The Christian God is completely outside the space-time continuum. I'm in agreement with God in the flesh/becoming man, not the other way around. And y'all don't still think it has a revolution of a 1000 years do you?
                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Or I'll keep implying that the inhabitants on some of those planets are the same types from fiction. Still don't get what species I'm referring to? They only have superpowers in certain conditions....
                      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Let's do some math, assuming that 1,000 people on each god's planet a good enough to become gods themselves.
                        gen 0: 1 god
                        gen 1: 1001 gods
                        gen 2: 1^6 more gods
                        gen 3: 1^9 more gods
                        gen 4: 1^12
                        5: 1^15
                        6:1^18
                        so, y= 1000^x, where y=number of new gods and x= generation number, or multiply gen number by three to get the scientific notation exponent.
                        So, after 100 generations of man becoming god, you have 10^300 gods. There are 10^24 stars, so we would only need 8 generations to use up the stars. Not all of them have planets, and not all the planets are inhabitable. What happens when you reach the 9th generation?
                        Maybe only 2 become new gods? You still have exponential growth to deal with. But you could have 80 generations to get to 1.2x10^24. Or only one person gets to become god. Then you could have as many generations as you want. Say a generation lasts 5 billion years(estimation of solar system age according to sceintists),
                        If you have 1000 new gods, that would be about 40 billion years.
                        2 gods would be 400 billion years
                        1 at a time could be 2^30 years, still not eternity. Unless you want to posit an infinite number of stars, with an infinity of beings.
                        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                          Let's do some math, ... Unless you want to posit an infinite number of stars, with an infinity of beings.

                          How about an infinite number of Universes (ie Multiverse)?

                          - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


                          Here is an interesting excerpt from an interview with Joseph Silk, Head of Astrophysics, Department of Physics, University of Oxford

                          Joseph Silk:

                          "We do not know whether the Universe is finite or not. To give you an example, imagine the geometry of the Universe in two dimensions as a plane. It is flat, and a plane is normally infinite. ... (Flat is just a two-dimensional analogy. What is meant is that the Universe is 'Euclidean', meaning that parallel lines always run parallel)... But you can take a sheet of paper [an 'infinite' sheet of paper] and you can roll it up and make a cylinder, and you can roll the cylinder again and make a torus [like the shape of a doughnut]. The surface of the torus is also spatially flat, but it is finite. So you have two possibilities for a flat Universe: one infinite, like a plane, and one finite, like a torus, which is also flat. ... Even if with our Cosmic Microwave Background data we can prove that the Universe is flat, we still won't know whether it's finite or infinite.

                          Question: Then how are we going to know whether the Universe is infinite?
                          Joseph Silk:

                          "With great difficulty! We may never know it. ..."

                          - -- - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - -- - - -

                          5 Reasons We May Live in a Multiverse - The universe we live in may not be the only one out there. In fact, our universe could be just one of an infinite number of universes making up a "multiverse." Though the concept may stretch credulity, there's good physics behind it. And there's not just one way to get to a multiverse — numerous physics theories independently point to such a conclusion. In fact, some experts think the existence of hidden universes is more likely than not. Here are the five most plausible scientific theories suggesting we live in a multiverse: ....http://www.space.com/18811-multiple-...-theories.html
                          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                          Evidence of the existence of 'multiverse' revealed for the first time by cosmic map: "The first 'hard evidence' that other universes exist has been found by scientists. Cosmologists studying a map of the universe from data gathered by the Planck spacecraft have concluded that it shows anomalies that can only have been caused by the gravitational pull of other universes. ..."

                          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...osmic-map.html

                          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

                          "SCIENTISTS believe they have found the first evidence that other universes exist.

                          The finding, based on data gathered by the European Space Agency’s Planck spacecraft, implies that our universe could be just one of billions — perhaps an infinite number.

                          Such theories have been discussed by cosmologists for decades — but until now they have lacked any evidence.

                          A few weeks ago, however, scientists published a spectacular new map of the cosmic microwave background — the “radiation” left behind after the Big Bang that created the universe 13.8bn years ago.

                          The map, based on Planck data, showed anomalies in the background radiation that, some cosmologists say, could only have been caused by the gravitational pull of other universes outside our own. ..."
                          http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/...cle1261602.ece


                          -7up

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                            I just think that mormon thought should have some kind of evidence. What about the fact that native Americans do not share a common ancestor with the Jews?
                            http://www.equip.org/articles/dna-sc...s-lds-history/
                            Quite off topic. But look ... I can give links also:

                            https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-m...udies?lang=eng

                            My link can beat up your link.

                            -7up

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                              That's right. Such an honored title does not apply to you and your ilk, who attempt to bash the faith of others, and unwittingly undermine the pillars of your own faith in the process.
                              Ah, so because I "try the spirits" and find them false with regards to Mormonism, then I am not a Christian, and I am of "that ilk". Fortunately, you don't get to decide who is a Christian and who is not, and it's awfully arrogant for you to take on that position.

                              Smith was a false prophet, and his followers are deceived.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                                Yeah. And they say that this "man" could "walk on water" , could "ascend into heaven" , could "appear suddenly in a closed room" , could "calm a violent storm by the power of his word" , etc. Stupid mormons right?
                                You really need to be more careful with your quotes. I think, in your rush to judgement, you have attributed a quote to me which I did not say. Your quote of me saying "The Mormon idea of "God" is pretty much just a man with superpowers." is something I did not say. When you click on the hyperlink which attributes that quote to me, it goes to something I said that is totally different.

                                An apology is in order.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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