Dear Mormons

[seven7up]

2 separate beings can not possess "all power" as that would means that neither is more powerful than the other.

When it comes to power and authority, technically the Father has more authority than the Son.

So, despite their "willingness" to cooperate in situations, the potential for non-cooperation exists, and the conundrum shows.

Right, just like Jesus had the option of not fulfilling God the Father's will. However, Jesus DID fulfill the Father's will. "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."

The potential for non-cooperation existed.

If you want to talk about a logical contradiction, Bill, you should be paying attention to the implication of a single essence/Being having the potential for two different "wills". Or, are you one who would argue that Jesus Christ had no free will?

-7up

[Bill the Cat]

When it comes to power and authority, technically the Father has more authority than the Son.

Then the Son is not "all powerful", which makes my point. Two beings can not be "all powerful"

Right, just like Jesus had the option of not fulfilling God the Father's will. However, Jesus DID fulfill the Father's will. "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."

The potential for non-cooperation existed.

That has nothing to do with an act of power

If you want to talk about a logical contradiction, Bill, you should be paying attention to the implication of a single essence/Being having the potential for two different "wills". Or, are you one who would argue that Jesus Christ had no free will?

Sorry, but there is no contradiction. Just because you are too brainwashed by the polytheism of Mormonism, doesn't make the Trinity contradictory.

[seven7up]

7up: When it comes to power and authority, technically the Father has more authority than the Son.

Then the Son is not "all powerful", which makes my point. Two beings can not be "all powerful"

LDS agree with Paul on this.

1 Corinthians 1:
24 Then cometh the end, when (Jesus) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Father and Son are NOT ultimately "coequal". (Also note the undertones here, which imply that Jesus Christ subdues all in this kingdom, in the same way that God the Father had subdued all. )


Here is a verse which is often used to advance the idea that the are coequal:

John 10:30-31
"I and the Father are one."

The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.

However, the preceding verses demonstrate how this "coequal" concept is a misinterpretation.
John 10:27-29
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

Jesus explains, as the shepherd, he keeps the sheep so that no wolf or thief can snatch them. The next verse says that also the Father (who is greater than all) keeps the sheep so that no one can snatch them out of His hand. Therefore, the Son and the Father are one in the sense that they are both working to keep the sheep. This has nothing to do with metaphysical essence / substance or equality.

It is clear that the Father is greater than all because he gave the flock to the Son. Furthermore, we are to have the same sort of oneness that the Father shares with the Son:

John 17:20-22
"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Methrough their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one"

7UP: If you want to talk about a logical contradiction, Bill, you should be paying attention to the implication of a single essence/Being having the potential for two different "wills".

Sorry, but there is no contradiction. Just because you are too brainwashed ....

You did not address the contradiction. Instead you went into ad hominem attacks. If you don't think that there is a contradiction, then please explain how or why.

-7up

[Bill the Cat]

7up: When it comes to power and authority, technically the Father has more authority than the Son.

Then the Son is not "all powerful", which makes my point. Two beings can not be "all powerful"

LDS agree with Paul on this.

1 Corinthians 1:
24 Then cometh the end, when (Jesus) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Father and Son are NOT ultimately "coequal". (Also note the undertones here, which imply that Jesus Christ subdues all in this kingdom, in the same way that God the Father had subdued all. )


Here is a verse which is often used to advance the idea that the are coequal:

John 10:30-31
"I and the Father are one."

The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.

However, the preceding verses demonstrate how this "coequal" concept is a misinterpretation.
John 10:27-29
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

Jesus explains, as the shepherd, he keeps the sheep so that no wolf or thief can snatch them. The next verse says that also the Father (who is greater than all) keeps the sheep so that no one can snatch them out of His hand. Therefore, the Son and the Father are one in the sense that they are both working to keep the sheep. This has nothing to do with metaphysical essence / substance or equality.

It is clear that the Father is greater than all because he gave the flock to the Son. Furthermore, we are to have the same sort of oneness that the Father shares with the Son:

John 17:20-22
"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Methrough their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one"

You made a rather long winded reply that never addressed the point. If the Son is a completely separate self-existent being, and is not as powerful as the Father, then logically, He can not be said to be "all powerful". If, however, He is one being, but a different center of consciousness, then He can be both subservant and all powerful.

7UP: If you want to talk about a logical contradiction, Bill, you should be paying attention to the implication of a single essence/Being having the potential for two different "wills".


You did not address the contradiction. Instead you went into ad hominem attacks. If you don't think that there is a contradiction, then please explain how or why.

-7up

There is no contradiction. And there is no need to explain what is already stated. There is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6; Gal. 4:8-9) who exists simultaneously in three persons. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16) Each is coequal, copowerful, and coeternal with the other. Each person--Father, Son and Holy Spirit--is not the other. Without either there is no God; all comprise the one God.

[Cow Poke]

You made a rather long winded reply that never addressed the point.

That seems to be his "style".

[seven7up]

You made a rather long winded reply that never addressed the point. If the Son is a completely separate self-existent being, and is not as powerful as the Father, then logically, He can not be said to be "all powerful". If, however, He is one being, but a different center of consciousness, then He can be both subservant and all powerful.

There is no such thing as a single being with 3 different centers of consciousness, unless you are referring to some kind of schizophrenic with multiple personality disorders.

If we take the way you interpret scripture, or terms like "all powerful", and then apply your method elsewhere, you will run into all kinds of problems: "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." (Rev 21:7)


Those who unite with God, inherit everything.

And with Jesus Christ being "all powerful" means that he unites his will with God's will, and they (in harmony) act together. It isn't a competition.

-7up

[Cow Poke]

There is no such thing as a single being with 3 different centers of consciousness, unless you are referring to some kind of schizophrenic with multiple personality disorders.

If we take the way you interpret scripture, or terms like "all powerful", and then apply your method elsewhere, you will run into all kinds of problems: "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." (Rev 21:7)


Those who unite with God, inherit everything.

And with Jesus Christ being "all powerful" means that he unites his will with God's will, and they (in harmony) act together. It isn't a competition.

-7up

You strain at a gnat and swallow Mormonism.

[Bill the Cat]

There is no such thing as a single being with 3 different centers of consciousness, unless you are referring to some kind of schizophrenic with multiple personality disorders.

If we take the way you interpret scripture, or terms like "all powerful", and then apply your method elsewhere, you will run into all kinds of problems: "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." (Rev 21:7)


Those who unite with God, inherit everything.

And with Jesus Christ being "all powerful" means that he unites his will with God's will, and they (in harmony) act together. It isn't a competition.

-7up

Since the Father can grant "all power", is it possible for Him to take it away from Jesus? And can Jesus take the Father's "all power" away?

[seven7up]

Since the Father can grant "all power", is it possible for Him to take it away from Jesus? And can Jesus take the Father's "all power" away?

Those questions are just as useless as "Can God create a rock so big that he cannot lift it?"

-7up

[Bill the Cat]

Those questions are just as useless as "Can God create a rock so big that he cannot lift it?"

-7up

No they aren't. If power can be granted, it can be removed. Do you agree or not?

[Cerealman]

Didn't realize this thread was still alive.