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  • #16
    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
    That may be the case, but Cerealman's response is still overly simplistic. After all, scriptures say that Jesus was God himself, who of all beings should have the 100% accurate truth, and yet there was confusion and chaos in Christianity even in the early years.
    So, please tell me, what was it Jesus got wrong?
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      Are you even a theist?
      My personal beliefs are irrelevant to this discussion. Evidently you missed my point--Cerealman's OP was needlessly insulting and presented a strawman of a religion's doctrine, so to show him his error, I responded with an insulting strawman of a doctrine from his own religion. It's much easier to spot fallacies in other people's attacks on our own positions than in our attacks on other positions.

      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      So, please tell me, what was it Jesus got wrong?
      That's not what I claimed. I was simply pointing out that the apparent logic behind arguments declaring "Mormons shouldn't have any disagreements" could just as easily be used to claim that Christians shouldn't have any disagreements.
      Last edited by fm93; 05-03-2014, 10:03 PM.
      Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

      I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by square_peg View Post
        That's not what I claimed.
        Well, THAT's a relief, because what you SAID was "After all, scriptures say that Jesus was God himself, who of all beings should have the 100% accurate truth..." So you agree that Christ didn't get ANYTHING wrong --- any misunderstanding came from elsewhere.

        I was simply pointing out that the apparent logic behind arguments declaring "Mormons shouldn't have any disagreements"
        Who said THAT?

        could just as easily be used to claim that Christians shouldn't have any disagreements.
        No, the CONFUSION came from Smith himself, and was furthered by his followers and his successors. Not the same with Christ. Christ got NOTHING wrong, Smith got a LOT wrong.

        So, yeah, BIG difference.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Who said THAT?
          Man, this is getting confusing. Let's backtrack. I said that the position that Cerealman attacked wasn't a universal belief among Mormons. Cerealman responded by saying "...so are the other hundreds of questions asked of mormonism, and yet at times it's clear in the text that's exactly what they 'should' believe." I interpreted this to mean something like "Well, it SHOULD be a universal position because their scripture seems pretty clear to me on this point." In response, I said that he doesn't have the right to declare what another religious group "should" believe, especially since within his own religion, there's no definitive authority on every single dispute. You then joined in by saying "I think that the problem is that the Mormons claim that all other religions are apostate, and Smith was chosen by God to set things straight. One would expect a "clear trumpet", but right from the start there was confusion and chaos. Smith did, in FACT, claim that all other religions were wrong...." I interpreted that to mean "There should be no confusion about doctrine if a religion's founder was sent from God."
          Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

          I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by square_peg View Post
            You then joined in by saying "I think that the problem is that the Mormons claim that all other religions are apostate, and Smith was chosen by God to set things straight. One would expect a "clear trumpet", but right from the start there was confusion and chaos. Smith did, in FACT, claim that all other religions were wrong...."
            So good so far....

            I interpreted that to mean "There should be no confusion about doctrine if a religion's founder was sent from God."
            No -- the religion's founder needs to sound a certain trumpet -- Smith did not. He said whatever he needed to say to get what he wanted. When he wanted other men's wives, he had a convenient "revelation" making it part of the religion. When his own faithful wife protested, he had a "revelation" that she would be DESTROYED if she opposed him in this.

            Smith frequently gave mixed messages, even telling his followers to abstain from alcohol, but he himself installed a bar in a hotel he owned. He founded his own bank, made himself Grand Poobah of the local Masonic Lodge, made himself a General of the militia....

            Smith was a fraud -- Christ was sinless. No contest.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by square_peg View Post
              Man, this is getting confusing. Let's backtrack. I said that the position that Cerealman attacked wasn't a universal belief among Mormons. Cerealman responded by saying "...so are the other hundreds of questions asked of mormonism, and yet at times it's clear in the text that's exactly what they 'should' believe." I interpreted this to mean something like "Well, it SHOULD be a universal position because their scripture seems pretty clear to me on this point." In response, I said that he doesn't have the right to declare what another religious group "should" believe, especially since within his own religion, there's no definitive authority on every single dispute. You then joined in by saying "I think that the problem is that the Mormons claim that all other religions are apostate, and Smith was chosen by God to set things straight. One would expect a "clear trumpet", but right from the start there was confusion and chaos. Smith did, in FACT, claim that all other religions were wrong...." I interpreted that to mean "There should be no confusion about doctrine if a religion's founder was sent from God."
              When I said the whole "should" I didn't mean it to mean that should be/is their universal belief but at the same time I've never seen a mormon believe my original post.
              That's also true for many thing Joseph Smith originally wrote down, they don't agree with it or tell you "this what he actually meant" or "he wasn't arrogant" stuff along those lines.
              Last edited by Cerealman; 05-03-2014, 11:55 PM.
              "Kahahaha! Let's get lunatic!"-Add LP
              "And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin is pride that apes humility"-Samuel Taylor Coleridge
              Oh ye of little fiber. Do you not know what I've done for you? You will obey. ~Cerealman for Prez.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                My personal beliefs are irrelevant to this discussion. .
                No they really are not. The rules of this sub-forum state quite clearly that you must be a theist to participate in threads in this area. Unless you have moderator approval (in other words, MY permission), you are not allowed to post here. So, this is an official moderator request. Are you a theist or not? If you post here again without answering my question, you will receive infraction points.
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                - Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                  My personal beliefs are irrelevant to this discussion.
                  Actually they are entirely relevant.

                  So we know who we are talking to and how to respond to you in debate.

                  Are you ashamed of your personal beliefs? If so, then please don't post on tweb. It is for open discussion about theology and beliefs. We don't have room for people who just want to troll and are not willing to even share their own beliefs.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                    My personal beliefs are irrelevant to this discussion. Evidently you missed my point--Cerealman's OP was needlessly insulting and presented a strawman of a religion's doctrine, so to show him his error, I responded with an insulting strawman of a doctrine from his own religion. It's much easier to spot fallacies in other people's attacks on our own positions than in our attacks on other positions.


                    That's not what I claimed. I was simply pointing out that the apparent logic behind arguments declaring "Mormons shouldn't have any disagreements" could just as easily be used to claim that Christians shouldn't have any disagreements.
                    Actually, due to the rules of this forum your beliefs are important, as they decide which areas you can, and cannot post in. I believe that atheist/agnostic/non-theists are not allowed to post here.

                    ETA: Ninja'd.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      So, this is an official moderator request. Are you a theist or not?
                      Well, I don't consider myself an atheist, so I guess I am. Although I really don't see how my personal worldview affects the validity or invalidity of the points I made.
                      Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                      I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                        I'm not a Mormon, and your question was most certainly not serious--or at the very least, not at all thought-out well.

                        In any case, I'd appreciate it if you took the time to carefully reflect about how you felt about my post and pinpoint exactly what's wrong with it. Then you might begin to understand what was wrong with your post.
                        Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                        I don't need to "assume" anything--it was already pretty clear. Right from the get-go you presented your question in an absolutely incredulous tone of voice (i.e. "Seriously?"), as if the belief's falsity was the most obvious thing in the world and that Mormons were utterly stupid for holding to it. It comes off as subtle mocking, and is incredibly insulting and demeaning. Furthermore, your own religion is founded upon the belief that a dead man came back to life, which to outsiders doesn't sound any less ridiculous than the Mormon doctrine sounds to you.
                        Originally posted by square_peg View Post

                        Very well then, but I'm just saying that your wording and perceived tone were almost identical to that of the typical YouTube atheist.
                        I am 100% in agreement with square_peg here.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                          Well, I don't consider myself an atheist, so I guess I am. Although I really don't see how my personal worldview affects the validity or invalidity of the points I made.
                          Not at all. It just affects your posting locations.
                          I am Punkinhead.

                          "I have missed you, Oh Grand High Priestess of the Order of the Stirring Pot"

                          ~ Cow Poke aka CP aka Creacher aka ke7ejx's apprentice....

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cerealman View Post
                            Become a God of a planet?
                            Seriously?You see no problem with that?
                            I'll bite.

                            My understanding of the speculative aspect of LDS theology, is that Jesus Christ would “inflate” a new universe through his “firstbegotten” and perfect spiritual son. Jesus would be “God the Father” of that universe and the exalted and resurrected from the previous universe would be the “hosts of heaven” in that universe and would have spiritual children who would then populate the “worlds without number” in that universe. That would not the same as each couple having, or being gods of, "their own planet". Jesus, as God the Father in the new universe, would be the "Most High God", the God above all other "gods", the "God of gods" and "Lord of lords". Thus, when the spiritual offspring on a world enter mortality, the Most High God will say to the other "gods" , "man has become as one of US, knowing good and evil". And the plan of salvation moves forward again in "one eternal round".

                            Remember that this topic, including what I just posted above, is considered “highly speculative”. Nevertheless, I have found agreement among members of the LDS faith on the following:

                            1) God the Father will always be our God and will always be our Father. Jesus will always be our Lord and Savior and we will serve under Him.
                            Nothing will ever change the relationship that we have with them. (See the Pattern of our Parentage - Ensign)
                            2) Exalted persons who God elevates as the hosts of heaven will have spiritual offspring (according to the LDS understanding of the “Abrahamic covenant”)
                            3) “Eternal Life” consists of “living the kind of life that God lives”.

                            Beyond these 3 things, I find Mormons holding varying theoretical opinions concerning how exaltation will work.

                            Hope that helps.

                            -7up

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Double Standards

                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              I think that the problem is that the Mormons claim that all other religions are apostate, and Smith was chosen by God to set things straight. One would expect a "clear trumpet", but right from the start there was confusion and chaos. Smith did, in FACT, claim that all other religions were wrong....

                              Was Paul chosen by God?

                              Didn't Paul describe that there was experience and knowledge about Heaven or the next life that he could not even describe?

                              You continue with the double standards. Also, consider article 9 of the LDS Articles of Faith:

                              "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."

                              So, we can all understand that Mormons don't pretend to know everything. I think that this would be especially true of Eternal Life, something that is likely to be, in many ways, incomprehensible to us while in mortality.

                              -7up

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                                I'll bite.

                                My understanding of the speculative aspect of LDS theology, is that Jesus Christ would “inflate” a new universe through his “firstbegotten” and perfect spiritual son. Jesus would be “God the Father” of that universe and the exalted and resurrected from the previous universe would be the “hosts of heaven” in that universe and would have spiritual children who would then populate the “worlds without number” in that universe. That would not the same as each couple having, or being gods of, "their own planet". Jesus, as God the Father in the new universe, would be the "Most High God", the God above all other "gods", the "God of gods" and "Lord of lords". Thus, when the spiritual offspring on a world enter mortality, the Most High God will say to the other "gods" , "man has become as one of US, knowing good and evil". And the plan of salvation moves forward again in "one eternal round".

                                Remember that this topic, including what I just posted above, is considered “highly speculative”. Nevertheless, I have found agreement among members of the LDS faith on the following:

                                1) God the Father will always be our God and will always be our Father. Jesus will always be our Lord and Savior and we will serve under Him.
                                Nothing will ever change the relationship that we have with them. (See the Pattern of our Parentage - Ensign)
                                2) Exalted persons who God elevates as the hosts of heaven will have spiritual offspring (according to the LDS understanding of the “Abrahamic covenant”)
                                3) “Eternal Life” consists of “living the kind of life that God lives”.

                                Beyond these 3 things, I find Mormons holding varying theoretical opinions concerning how exaltation will work.

                                Hope that helps.

                                -7up
                                But the LDS church (beginning with Smith) has taught that who we call God the Father, was only a man on a previous planet and he had a God the Father before him. And so on back to infinity. So your "new universe" idea doesn't cut it.

                                Comment

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