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Moroni a demon? Do you really want to go there?

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  • Moroni a demon? Do you really want to go there?

    Every once in a while when I encounter some guy in a chat room that claims that the Moroni was a demon that appeared to Joseph Smith. It happened just last night (4/30/14) in a paltalk chat room. I find the claim to be very interesting coming from a christian who pounds the Bible at me like the person last night. It is one thing to say Joseph Smith just made it up or he imagined something but to say that Moroni was a demon is at least an admission that Joseph actually saw something real. Sometimes they cite 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 for some reason that I don't get. Anyway I find the the whole claim to be very problematic for them. First they apparently don't understand what an angel of light is.

    Is Satan an "Angel of Light"?

    2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (KJV): "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (NASB): For such men are (A)false apostles, (B)deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even (C)Satan disguises himself as an (D)angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, (E)whose end will be according to their deeds.

    2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (Amplified Bible): "For such men are false apostles [spurious, counterfeits], deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles (special messengers) of Christ (the Messiah). And it is no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light; So it is not surprising if his servants also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. [But] their end will correspond with their deeds."

    Paul speaks of men who are are false apostles who have "transformed" or "disguising" or "masquerading" as the true apostles of Christ in verse 13. These men are pretending to be something that they are not. From www.dictionary.com

    masquerade (v): 5 to go about under false pretenses or a false character; assume the character of; give oneself out to be: to masquerade as a former Russian count. 6. to disguise oneself.

    disguise (v): 1 to change the appearance or guise of so as to conceal identity or mislead, as by means of deceptive garb: The king was disguised as a peasant. 2. to conceal or cover up the truth or actual character of by a counterfeit form or appearance; misrepresent: to disguise one's intentions.

    Verse 14 says Satan also "transforms, disguises, or masquerades" himself as an angel of light. Not that Satan is actually an angel of light. If Satan was by definition an angel of light, he would not have to "transforms, disguises, or masquerade" himself as an angel of light. That would be as silly as a human being transforming or masquerading themselves as a human being. Satan has to pretend to be something that he actually not which is an angel of light.

    Paul is comparing what these false apostles are doing to what Satan can do. They are pretending to be something in order to deceive. True apostles and true angels of light do not transform or pretend to be true apostles or angels of light. Paul says these false apostles might disguise or transform themselves to appear as ministers of righteousness but God knows who they are and they will they will eventually be punished for their works or deeds. They can deceive many men but they can not deceive God. God knows who the true angels of light and true apostles are from the false ones that are counterfeits.



    What really is an angel of light?

    Angel: Greek aggelos ( http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/l...32&Version=kjv ) and means "a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God"

    Light: Greek phos ( http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/l...57&Version=kjv ) and means

    1) light

    a) the light

    1) emitted by a lamp

    2) a heavenly light such as surrounds angels when they appear on earth

    b) anything emitting light

    1) a star

    2) fire because it is light and sheds light

    3) a lamp or torch

    c) light, i.e brightness

    1) of a lamp

    2) metaph.

    a) God is light because light has the extremely delicate, subtle, pure, brilliant quality

    b) of truth and its knowledge, together with the spiritual purity associated with it

    c) that which is exposed to the view of all, openly, publicly

    d) reason, mind

    1) the power of understanding esp. moral and spiritual truth

    The bold definitions appear to have the closest relation to what the angel would be associated with. A heavenly light or an angel or messenger of heavenly light. An angel or messenger of truth, or an angel or messenger of God since God is light.
    1 John 1:5: "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

    Angels or messengers of light simply are angels or messengers of God. Satan can "transform" or masquerade himself as angels of God to deceive people but the fact that Satan can do this does not make Satan any more of a valid "angel of light" than it does for those false apostles who masquerade as true apostles as valid apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    I really don't understand why some people use 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 in relation to Moroni or anything with the LDS faith or doctrine.

    Now to the meat of the issue. Could have Moroni have been a demon? According the the New Testament. and specifically 1 John 4:2-3 the answer is no.
    1 John 4:2-3: "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God"

    The question is did Moroni confess that Jesus came in the flesh or not by word or deed? Moroni played a critical role in the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in the restoration. The Book of Mormon all about Jesus Christ and his coming in the flesh to take upon him the sins of the world. There are many passages that state in one way or another that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
    Mosiah 7:27-28 "And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth—And now, because he said this, they did put him to death; and many more things did they do which brought down the wrath of God upon them. Therefore, who wondereth that they are in bondage, and that they are smitten with sore afflictions?"

    Ether 3:14-16: "Behold, I am he who was aprepared from the foundation of the world to bredeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the cFather and the Son. In me shall all mankind have dlife, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my esons and my daughters. And never have I ashowed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man bbelieved in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own cimage? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image. Behold, this abody, which ye now bbehold, is the cbody of my dspirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. And now, as I, Moroni, said I could anot make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he bshowed himself unto the Nephites."

    3 Nephi 11:10-15: "Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world. And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning. And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth; for they remembered that it had been prophesied among them that Christ should show himself unto them after his ascension into heaven. And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying: Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world. And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and did feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come."


    There can be no question that the Book of Mormon and Moroni testified that Jesus came in the flesh. Back to the test found in 1 John 4:1-3 "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God..." If every spirit confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God, and Moroni and the Book of Mormon testify that Jesus came in the flesh, that means that either 1) Moroni and the Book of Mormon are from God and is not a demon or 2) 1 John 4:1-3 is a lie.

    The way I see it, if you don't believe the the LDS view, that is fine but its better to say that Moroni did not exist or Joseph Smith just imagined it. Saying Moroni actually existed but was a demon can be a problem if one accepts 1 John 4:1-3

  • #2
    Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post
    The way I see it, if you don't believe the the LDS view, that is fine but its better to say that Moroni did not exist or Joseph Smith just imagined it. Saying Moroni actually existed but was a demon can be a problem if one accepts 1 John 4:1-3
    I agree! Saying that Moroni was a demon implies that he (it?) actually existed, and suggests Smith didn't actually make the whole thing up!
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    • #3
      My personal take on it is that Smith was a conman who decided to take in a bunch of rubes by inventing a story and a religion. There never was any vision, no Moroni, no plates.

      That is not to say that Satan didn't use him or the LDS church. I think Satan loves the LDS church. It detracts from the real church and leads so many astray, especially with it's teaching that men can become Gods of their own planets. It plays to pure arrogance and greed, exactly what Satan likes to see.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post

        Now to the meat of the issue. Could have Moroni have been a demon? According the the New Testament. and specifically 1 John 4:2-3 the answer is no.
        1 John 4:2-3: "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God"

        The question is did Moroni confess that Jesus came in the flesh or not by word or deed? Moroni played a critical role in the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in the restoration. The Book of Mormon all about Jesus Christ and his coming in the flesh to take upon him the sins of the world. There are many passages that state in one way or another that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
        <snip>
        The way I see it, if you don't believe the the LDS view, that is fine but its better to say that Moroni did not exist or Joseph Smith just imagined it. Saying Moroni actually existed but was a demon can be a problem if one accepts 1 John 4:1-3
        I see you've merrily ripped 1 John 4:1-3 out of context. You're not alone in that, but a polemic against docetists is inapplicable when dealing with other situations.

        Let's look at this from the flip-side. You (Mormons) allege that the church became apostate within the first couple centuries of its existence. However, the church has consistently believed that "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" and is thus, per your interpretation, of God. How can something which is "of God" be apostate?
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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        • #5
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          I see you've merrily ripped 1 John 4:1-3 out of context. You're not alone in that, but a polemic against docetists is inapplicable when dealing with other situations.

          Let's look at this from the flip-side. You (Mormons) allege that the church became apostate within the first couple centuries of its existence. However, the church has consistently believed that "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" and is thus, per your interpretation, of God. How can something which is "of God" be apostate?
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          Stephen R. Donaldson

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          • #6
            Am I the only one that finds the name Moroni really silly?

            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              Am I the only one that finds the name Moroni really silly?
              Nope. I immediately remove the "i" at the end.

              ETA: In my mind that is.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                Am I the only one that finds the name Moroni really silly?
                It was the name of the capital of the Cumora Islands, where Joseph Smith's fascination with Captain Kidd would have instructed him that Kidd frequented the island in the late 1700s and early 1800s.

                P. Tucker (Vogel vol 3, pp. 93-94):

                "Joseph ... had learned to read comprehensively ... [reading] works of fiction and records of criminality, such for instance as would be classed with the 'dime novels' of the present day. The stories of Stephen Buroughs and Captain Kidd, and the like, presented the highest charms for his expanding mental perceptions."

                Pomeroy Tucker knew personal details about the Smiths while they lived in Palmyra--even Richard L. Anderson admits this (Vogel vol 3, p. 87).


                Originally posted by http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bom1830/changes.shtml#CAMORA

                Critics have often pointed out that there is a suspicious link between the hill Cumorah and the angel Moroni, and the Comoros Islands off the eastern coast of Mozambique, the capital of which is Moroni, and has been since before the Book of Mormon. Defenders of the Book of Mormon claim that this is only a coincidence, and that 'Comoros' in fact has very little correspondence with 'Cumorah'. The fact of the matter is that prior to the French occupation of the late 1860's, Comoros was known by its Arabic name, Camora (sometimes also spelled Comora). It is thus more than a little suspicious to note that the 1830 Book of Mormon uniformly spells 'Cumorah' as 'Camorah'. See, for example, the original text of Mormon 6:2:

                And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Camorah, by the hill which was called Camorah, and there we would give them battle.

                As proof of the above assertion, I offer this section of an 1808 map of Africa.



                This is part of the Mozambique channel. Madagascar is the island at the bottom right, and Mozambique is at the left. Roughly in the middle is Camora.

                Although this parallel is compelling, it is not enough to establish a definite link between the Book of Mormon and the Comoro Islands. It has been suggested that "Camorah" in the 1830 version is simply a spelling mistake, caused by Oliver Cowdery's less than perfect handwriting. While plausible, it is hard to see how such a mistake could be so consistently made.
                Last edited by Bill the Cat; 05-02-2014, 11:13 AM.
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                Stephen R. Donaldson

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                  It was the name of the capital of the Cumora Islands, where Joseph Smith's fascination with Captain Kidd would have instructed him that Kidd frequented the island in the late 1700s and early 1800s.
                  Ah, that makes more sense!

                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                    Nope. I immediately remove the "i" at the end.

                    ETA: In my mind that is.
                    Me, too!

                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      It was the name of the capital of the Cumora Islands, where Joseph Smith's fascination with Captain Kidd would have instructed him that Kidd frequented the island in the late 1700s and early 1800s.

                      P. Tucker (Vogel vol 3, pp. 93-94):

                      "Joseph ... had learned to read comprehensively ... [reading] works of fiction and records of criminality, such for instance as would be classed with the 'dime novels' of the present day. The stories of Stephen Buroughs and Captain Kidd, and the like, presented the highest charms for his expanding mental perceptions."

                      Pomeroy Tucker knew personal details about the Smiths while they lived in Palmyra--even Richard L. Anderson admits this (Vogel vol 3, p. 87).
                      Always interesting to see where people get there ideas. I was just reading in Leonard Cohen's biography about how he got his lines from Camus and Lorca. "Inspiration" is mostly homage!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        Am I the only one that finds the name Moroni really silly?
                        His first name was Mac.


                        ~~~ stuck a feather in his cap and called it MacMoroni ~~~~
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          His first name was Mac.


                          ~~~ stuck a feather in his cap and called it MacMoroni ~~~~

                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            His first name was Mac.


                            ~~~ stuck a feather in his cap and called it MacMoroni ~~~~

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              His first name was Mac.


                              ~~~ stuck a feather in his cap and called it MacMoroni ~~~~
                              This makes me wish we still could give amens to posts, hand out pearls, and had the old Post of the Day.

                              Well played sir. Well played.

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