Originally posted by Cow Poke
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Look! It's a bird, no it's a plane, no it's a bicycle built for two!
This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the LDS - Mormons. This forum is generally for theists only, and is generaly not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theists may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.
Due to the sensitive nature of the LDS Temple Ceremonies to our LDS posters, we do not allow posting exact text of the temple rituals, articles describing older versions of the ceremony, or links that provide the same information. However discussion of generalities of the ceremony are not off limits. If in doubt, PM the area mod or an Admin
Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Forum Rules: Here
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Christ in Ancient Americas - A Compelling Evidence of the BOM's Authenticity
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThanks for saving me a bit of work Dante.
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The Natural and Moral History of the Indies, the classic work of New World history originally published by José de Acosta in 1590
The published story of Viracocha long pre-dates the BOM. and it makes quite an interesting read.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI think he tried to cover that by claiming that this 'white man' then "walked North": "They say that this man went on towards the north, working these marvels along the way of the mountains; and that he never more returned so as to be seen".
I always get confused as to which ones were white and which ones were, as Brigham Young* put it, "black, uncouth, un-comely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind". It's encouraging to know, however, that they have the potential to become "a white and delightsome people".
I can certainly understand why TRB is trying so strenuously to confine us to his talking points.
*Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110. / Journal of Discourses 7:290-91 (October 9, 1859). source
Book_of_Mormon_Lands_and_Sites2.jpg
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post... Not to mention, the Book of Mormon was supposed to have happened in north and central America, not south.
Plus, the Nephites were white so why would they even notice a white man among them like you mention above as special enough to call out the color of his skin?
I can certainly understand why TRB is trying so strenuously to confine us to his talking points.
*Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110. / Journal of Discourses 7:290-91 (October 9, 1859). source
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Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostThe Book of Mormon has always been a stumbling block for many evangelical Christians. Many attempts have given over to some interesting theories of how this text came about. One of the main criticisms is that there is no archaeological evidence to substantiate any people, person, place, or event recorded in the Book of Mormon text.
https://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/...-of-Mormon.pdf
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostHowever, what if there existed an actual historical recording of the most singular and significant event that brings forth a close to the criticism? Not only a recording that lends credibility to this magnificent event, it correlates geographically to a specific place.
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostAccount in The Second part of the Chronicle of Peru
Account recorded in 3 Nephi 8 - 11
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostAccount in The Second part of the Chronicle of Peru
Book of Mormon - 3 Nephi 9 - 11 (contextually), focus on 3 Nephi 11:8-15
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostImage result for Lake Titicaca. This lake is the largest fresh water lake that borders on Peru and Bolivia.
And, Isla del Sol is said, by Inca legends and mythology, to be the birthplace of the Sun. What we notice in Pedro de Ceza de Leon's historical account is that the Indians describe the coming of a man with great power. His brightness caused the darkness to disappear - as in how the Sun rises.
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostNow, we know that the Sun rises in the East and sets in the west. The account here signifies that this man came from a Southern direction, from the Island of Titicaca.
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostPedro de Cieza de Leon's account is not as in depth as what the account in 3 Nephi describes.
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostWhat is worthy to note here, as well, is the description in 3 Nephi 11 that those who remained were gathered in the "land bountiful".
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostThese inhabitants witnessed the coming of Christ.
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostParallel this event with the recording of Pedro de Ceza de Leon, we notice there is striking similarities between the two accounts. These similarities are not contradictory. If anything, Pedro de Ceza de Leon's account is more of what we may consider a summation of what 3 Nephi 11 describes.
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostHowever, comparing these two accounts, we see that Pedro de Cieza de Leon is being told of a significant event that happened long before the Inca's came into power in that region of Peru.
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostHere is the parallel to both accounts:
- Both accounts describe darkness being over the land for a significant period of time
- Both accounts describe the inhabitants of the land in mourning, distress, and groaning, praying, and seeking God
- Both accounts describe that the darkness is gone and the inhabitants witness a bright light and a man coming toward them
- Both accounts describe this man having power and authority to cause mountains to flatten and other creative powers
- Both accounts describe that this man taught them certain teachings and healed as well as other miracles
- No amount of time specified in the Peruvian account with regards to how long the darkness lasted, in contrast to the account in the Book of Mormon that specified it to be three days, accompanied by many other fantastic events that, if true, would have been noted by the Peruvians as well.
- The Peruvians weren't seeking God; the account says "great prayers and vows were offered up to their gods" meaning that they were still pagan, as can be understood if only you read the rest of the account.
- The Peruvian account does not mention anything about a bright light, and in fact mentions that the man appeared from the south, in contrast to the Mormon account that "Christ" descended from heaven.
- The Mormon account does not contain any such description of having power and authority to cause mountains to flatten. In fact, the accounts are contradictory in that the Peruvians said that the white man who appeared performed those great feats after he appeared to them, in contrast to all the death and destruction that supposedly transpired in the three hours during the three days of darkness in the Mormon account.
- Both accounts differ on what has been taught them by the man who appeared to them.
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostThe evidence is beyond mere circumstances and does not appear to be sharing two different events.
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostIn fact, when you read Pedro de Cieza de Leon's, the story the Inca's told of another great "apostle" like man coming to the inhabitants. There does not seem to be a time line in, the Chronicler's account. However, we read further beyond Third Nephi that about 200 years passed when men came to the people and were taken captive by them.
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostImage result for Lake Titicaca
This information is important because if the Book of Mormon truly is a fraud, how does it come to describe, in perfect detail, a historical event that is also recorded in another source?
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostFurthermore, how would Joseph Smith, or any other person (if he borrowed this from the Spaulding or View of the Hebrews manuscript) know about this single most important event when the Second part of the Chronicle of Peru was not translated and published until 1883 by the Haklyut Society? This is 53 years after the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostThe Book of Mormon is claimed to be another testament of Jesus Christ. It substantiates the notion that this text is more sacred and authentic than modern Evangelical Critics claim. Whatever their claims against this set of scripture, many are unable to provide an adequate rebuttal to the evidence presented here.
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostI have asked many Christian Pastors, Evangelical Christians, and Critics of Mormonism, and others, who lay claim that there is no archaeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon - as to how such a momentous event not only shows proof that Jesus Christ did visit the inhabitants of the ancient America's - has a recorded historic account that mirrors and summarizes the actual event itself in 3 Nephi.
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostThis challenge has been given to many people in the past 15 years since I have initially discovered the account written by Pedro de Cieza de Leon.
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From what I can tell of the Chronicles of Peru, they were written by a conquistador in the 1500's. Assuming your translation above it correct (you give no link to the translated materials or reference to the book, chapter, etc) why should we believe anything it says about the Incas or about their history? Not to mention, the Book of Mormon was supposed to have happened in north and central America, not south. Plus, the Nephites were white so why would they even notice a white man among them like you mention above as special enough to call out the color of his skin?
Joseph Smiith liked to take events in the bible and exaggerate them. When Jesus died on the cross the bible says there was 3 hours of darkness, so Smith writes of an event with 3 DAYS of darkness. Gotta impress the yokels right?
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostActually, you'd need to back up and start with the author. The fact that he was a man of incredibly questionable character is the first problem. The "gold plates"? Who else saw them? How they were supposedly transcribed? Where are they now?
Many attempts have been made to try to explain how Joseph Smith came up with it in the first place.
Naw, I disagree. None of that matters if Joseph Smith was a fraud.
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Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostI never said that lacking archaeological evidences is the main objection against the Book of Mormon. I stated clearly that one of the objections to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon is the lacking of archaeological evidence.
Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostOne of the main criticisms is that there is no archaeological evidence to substantiate any people, person, place, or event recorded in the Book of Mormon text.
That's disappointing.
Hey, if you want to set up a formal debate, as I said, we have a venue for that called "The Arena".
Maybe you can find somebody to play your games there!
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Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostThen you are not willing to engage in a rational discussion on this because of biased and presumptious opinion.
We DO have a formal debate area where can lay out the terms of discussion, but that's not how it works here. You seem to want to blog, and you actually do a better job of laying out your case - such as it is - on your blog.
This tells me any additional discussions you attempt to engage me with will not be answered as I will not be obligated to engage in any further discussion with you on this or any other topic.
This is based on the evidence you are not willing to produce any evidence contrary to what I presented and are unwilling to abide by proper rules of rational discussion.
Have a good day.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI am under no obligation to accept your premise, knowing what I know of Joseph Smith and his life of deception and fraud. You seem to believe that a main objection to the Book of Mormon is "that there is no archaeological evidence to substantiate any people, person, place, or event recorded in the Book of Mormon text".
I have never heard a single person use that as the reason they reject the Book of Mormon. So all your "evidence" is useless. You're trying to answer a question that's not being asked.
Now, since you are not willing to engage in a rational discussion on this because of biased and presumptious opinion. This tells me any additional discussions you attempt to engage me with will not be answered as I will not be obligated to engage in any further discussion with you on this or any other topic.
This is based on the evidence you are not willing to produce any evidence contrary to what I presented and are unwilling to abide by proper rules of rational discussion. Have a good day.Last edited by TimothyRB; 02-18-2019, 10:55 PM.
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Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostYour first mistake is not dealing with the original argument, and evidence, I am presenting.
I have never heard a single person use that as the reason they reject the Book of Mormon. So all your "evidence" is useless. You're trying to answer a question that's not being asked.
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