7UP: Why do you think that talking to God or having the golden plates would automatically impart to Joseph all aspects of theological knowledge all at once? ... Are you asking whether or not Joseph Smith received from God every concept (related to the nature of the Godhead) all at once at the very beginning?
You were complaining that the Lectures on Faith did not represent God the Father as having a body of flesh and bone.
That is a specific theological concept concerning the nature of the embodiment of a specific member of the Godhead.
You wrote:
Yes, but the Father was anthropomorphic. This also shows two distinct and separate members of the Godhead, each of whom is embodied. I explained:
7UP: Sidney Rigdon wrote most of the Lectures on Faith. We see here that he understood God the Father as being the same way that Jesus was described in the Book of Mormon, as an embodied spirit with hands, eyes, head, etc. Why didn't Joseph correct the "personage of spirit" phrasing? Because Joseph Smith didn't know that yet. Why would he? It is not like he had an opportunity to touch God the Father's physical body. That detail had to be revealed specifically to Joseph.
As I said, the Lectures on Faith do not teach Trinitarianism or Modalism. Teachings all the way back to the Book of Mormon teach that we are LITERALLY created in the image and likeness of God and that there was a separation between the Father and Son. That is not found in any Trinitarian creed, therefore, you cannot make the claim that LDS meant the same thing in the early church if they said "Trinity".
DO MORMONS BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY?
Mormons most commonly use the term “Godhead” to refer to the Trinity. The first article of faith for the Latter-day Saints reads: “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” Latter-day Saints believe God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one in will and purpose but are not literally the same being or substance, as conceptions of the Holy Trinity commonly imply.
That is correct. We usually use the term "Godhead" because there are too many conceptions of the Trinity which imply that they are literally the "same being" or the "same substance". So, it DOES depends entirely what is meant by "Trinity". The LDS (the English speaking) mostly avoid the use of that term because of what is implied by that word as defined by the creeds.
Nevertheless, earlier on this thread, I explained that the LDS view is closest to the view of "Social Trinitarianism". I named the title of this thread "Mormon Trinity". Just look at any Spanish translation of LDS literature. They say, "Trinidad". We understand the Father , Son and Holy Spirit to have "Three centers of consciousness", although they have a special spiritual communication between the members of the Godhead which unites them. Where we LDS part ways from the Social Trinitarian view, is that the members of the Trinity in that view are claimed to have a "single essence". There is no scriptural support for such a claim. I already demonstrated that the Bible says that Jesus is the "image/copy" of the Father's substance. It does NOT say that they are a "single" substance or that they are the "same" essence.
Keep in mind that LDS do not argue that Christ is a mere reflection of the Father. Look closely at the original Greek, which indicates an "exact copy". The root word of provides imagery of a "carved" or "stamped out" reproduction of the original. The LDS view fits perfectly with that idea. The "fullness of Deity" dwells within Christ "bodily". A reflection would not be the "fullness of Deity".
Source: The Evening And Morning Star, Vol. I, INDEPENDENCE, MO. JULY, 1832. No. 2. page 12
the eternal purposes and decrees of God, THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY, the incarnation of the Son of God, and the manner of the operation of the Spirit of God upon the souls of men,
The Doctrine of the Trinity obviously was not the "single substance" concept. And it certainly did not envision God the Father as omnipresent essence.
-The Book of Mormon discusses a physical separation and embodiment (shape, position and form) of members of the Godhead (See: 3 Nephi 11:, 1 Nephi 11:1-11, Ether 3:14-18.)
In 1830, Joseph explained the meaning of Genesis 1:26 as:
And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so....And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them. (Moses 2:26-27.)
Again, "in mine own image" to refer to a physical likeness and/or appearance, rather than some kind of a moral or intellectual similarities.
The explanation of Genesis 5:1-2 reads: In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; in the image of his own body, male and female, created he them (Moses 6:8-9; emphasis added).
- "the different denominations are very much opposed to us.... The Methodists also come, and they rage, for they worship a God without body or parts, and they know that our faith comes in contact with this principle." (Lucy Mack Smith - 1830)
- "The Prophet Joseph said: 'Brethren, now you are prepared to be the apostles of Jesus Christ, for you have seen both the Father and the Son and know that They exist and that They are two separate personages.' (Joseph Smith 1832-33)
How about a non-Mormon witness:
- [The Mormons] contend that the God worshipped by the Presbyterians and all other sectarians is no better than a wooden god. They believe that the true God is a material being, composed of body and parts; and that when the Creator formed Adam in his own image, he made him about the size and shape of God himself. (Truman Coe, a Presbyterian minister, who lived in Kirtland for four years (1832–1836).
-7up
Originally posted by Cow Poke
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That is a specific theological concept concerning the nature of the embodiment of a specific member of the Godhead.
You wrote:
Originally posted by Cow Poke
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7UP: Sidney Rigdon wrote most of the Lectures on Faith. We see here that he understood God the Father as being the same way that Jesus was described in the Book of Mormon, as an embodied spirit with hands, eyes, head, etc. Why didn't Joseph correct the "personage of spirit" phrasing? Because Joseph Smith didn't know that yet. Why would he? It is not like he had an opportunity to touch God the Father's physical body. That detail had to be revealed specifically to Joseph.
As I said, the Lectures on Faith do not teach Trinitarianism or Modalism. Teachings all the way back to the Book of Mormon teach that we are LITERALLY created in the image and likeness of God and that there was a separation between the Father and Son. That is not found in any Trinitarian creed, therefore, you cannot make the claim that LDS meant the same thing in the early church if they said "Trinity".
Originally posted by Cow Poke
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Mormons most commonly use the term “Godhead” to refer to the Trinity. The first article of faith for the Latter-day Saints reads: “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” Latter-day Saints believe God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one in will and purpose but are not literally the same being or substance, as conceptions of the Holy Trinity commonly imply.
That is correct. We usually use the term "Godhead" because there are too many conceptions of the Trinity which imply that they are literally the "same being" or the "same substance". So, it DOES depends entirely what is meant by "Trinity". The LDS (the English speaking) mostly avoid the use of that term because of what is implied by that word as defined by the creeds.
Nevertheless, earlier on this thread, I explained that the LDS view is closest to the view of "Social Trinitarianism". I named the title of this thread "Mormon Trinity". Just look at any Spanish translation of LDS literature. They say, "Trinidad". We understand the Father , Son and Holy Spirit to have "Three centers of consciousness", although they have a special spiritual communication between the members of the Godhead which unites them. Where we LDS part ways from the Social Trinitarian view, is that the members of the Trinity in that view are claimed to have a "single essence". There is no scriptural support for such a claim. I already demonstrated that the Bible says that Jesus is the "image/copy" of the Father's substance. It does NOT say that they are a "single" substance or that they are the "same" essence.
Keep in mind that LDS do not argue that Christ is a mere reflection of the Father. Look closely at the original Greek, which indicates an "exact copy". The root word of provides imagery of a "carved" or "stamped out" reproduction of the original. The LDS view fits perfectly with that idea. The "fullness of Deity" dwells within Christ "bodily". A reflection would not be the "fullness of Deity".
Originally posted by Cow Poke
View Post
the eternal purposes and decrees of God, THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY, the incarnation of the Son of God, and the manner of the operation of the Spirit of God upon the souls of men,
The Doctrine of the Trinity obviously was not the "single substance" concept. And it certainly did not envision God the Father as omnipresent essence.
-The Book of Mormon discusses a physical separation and embodiment (shape, position and form) of members of the Godhead (See: 3 Nephi 11:, 1 Nephi 11:1-11, Ether 3:14-18.)
In 1830, Joseph explained the meaning of Genesis 1:26 as:
And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so....And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them. (Moses 2:26-27.)
Again, "in mine own image" to refer to a physical likeness and/or appearance, rather than some kind of a moral or intellectual similarities.
The explanation of Genesis 5:1-2 reads: In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; in the image of his own body, male and female, created he them (Moses 6:8-9; emphasis added).
- "the different denominations are very much opposed to us.... The Methodists also come, and they rage, for they worship a God without body or parts, and they know that our faith comes in contact with this principle." (Lucy Mack Smith - 1830)
- "The Prophet Joseph said: 'Brethren, now you are prepared to be the apostles of Jesus Christ, for you have seen both the Father and the Son and know that They exist and that They are two separate personages.' (Joseph Smith 1832-33)
How about a non-Mormon witness:
- [The Mormons] contend that the God worshipped by the Presbyterians and all other sectarians is no better than a wooden god. They believe that the true God is a material being, composed of body and parts; and that when the Creator formed Adam in his own image, he made him about the size and shape of God himself. (Truman Coe, a Presbyterian minister, who lived in Kirtland for four years (1832–1836).
-7up
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