Announcement

Collapse

LDS - Mormonism Guidelines

Theists only.

Look! It's a bird, no it's a plane, no it's a bicycle built for two!

This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the LDS - Mormons. This forum is generally for theists only, and is generaly not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theists may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.

Due to the sensitive nature of the LDS Temple Ceremonies to our LDS posters, we do not allow posting exact text of the temple rituals, articles describing older versions of the ceremony, or links that provide the same information. However discussion of generalities of the ceremony are not off limits. If in doubt, PM the area mod or an Admin


Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Pre-mortal existence and the war in Heaven

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by onefour1 View Post
    Sorry if you thought I was being snitty. What I meant was that not everything is spelled out in scripture in a way that a two year child could understand it. I think some verse require a lot of contemplation, prayer, and study but the meaning is there.
    Yes, the meaning is there, but not what you're claiming.

    Regarding those who came before Christ's Atonement, are they not also saved by the blood of the Lamb?
    Their faith is counted as righteousness. Talking about humans, not angels.

    We believe that all those who have lived on the earth were in need of the atonement even if they were born before the coming of Christ.
    Yes, we do. But we don't get baptized in a misguided attempt to apply that baptism to THEM. Their faith is counted as righteousness. (Romans 4)
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by onefour1 View Post
      Did this occur in heaven?
      Absolutely. Scripture tells us that the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord. This is done in the heavenly realm, not on earth, as also noted in 1 Enoch.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      - Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by onefour1 View Post
        Regarding those who came before Christ's Atonement, are they not also saved by the blood of the Lamb? We believe that all those who have lived on the earth were in need of the atonement even if they were born before the coming of Christ.
        But the casting out of satan happened, according to you, BEFORE the fall of man, so, this statement is irrelivant.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #34
          Ok, 141, when did this happen?


          Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
          Rev 12:2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            Absolutely. Scripture tells us that the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord. This is done in the heavenly realm, not on earth, as also noted in 1 Enoch.
            Hello Bill! Good to see you again. LDS believe that the "sons of God" are those who are true believers of God. And "sons of men" refers to those who are not. So when the sons of God married the daughters of men, they were marrying outside their faith which would cause them to be led astray at times by their spouses. We don't believe it refers to beings in heaven.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              But the casting out of satan happened, according to you, BEFORE the fall of man, so, this statement is irrelivant.
              I'm not making the connection on this one. We believe that the atonement of Christ was instituted before the foundation of the earth:

              1 Peter 1:19-20

              19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

              20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

              We believe that in the pre-mortal existence, Christ was foreordained to be the Savior of all men who would come down upon the earth and take upon them mortality and receive a body. So all those from the days of Adam to the end of the world need to find their salvation in Christ Jesus. Revelations is stating that the brethren came down, whom I believe were Michael and his angels, who were accused before God day and night and overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb and by their testimony and loved not their lives unto the death. Not sure what your point is?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                Ok, 141, when did this happen?


                Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
                Rev 12:2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
                We believe that a great sign in the heaven appeared unto John the Revelator. He saw a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars which represents the Kingdom of God on the earth and the crown represents his twelve tribes of Israel/and also the 12 apostles. The woman was with child and was in pain to give birth which represents the Savior of mankind to come forth out of the Kingdom of God.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                  But the casting out of satan happened, according to you, BEFORE the fall of man, so, this statement is irrelivant.
                  Originally posted by onefour1 View Post
                  I'm not making the connection on this one.
                  Originally posted by onefour1 View Post
                  We believe that a great sign in the heaven appeared unto John the Revelator. He saw a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars which represents the Kingdom of God on the earth and the crown represents his twelve tribes of Israel/and also the 12 apostles. The woman was with child and was in pain to give birth which represents the Savior of mankind to come forth out of the Kingdom of God.
                  I'm confused, are you saying that the Woman gave birth to Jesus in the 1st century, and agreeing that Michael fought Satan after that?

                  Or are you saying that the Woman gave birth to Jesus before the foundations of this earth, and Michael fought Satan back then, casting him to the Garden, long before the 1st century? The latter is what you seem to say here:

                  Originally posted by onefour1 View Post
                  We believe that we were among the angels who were on the side of Michael before the foundations of this earth. Satan was at one time a son of God but rebelled against the Father and was cast down into the earth. He is fallen from heaven but still is trying to capture followers out of hatred for the Father.
                  Originally posted by onefour1 View Post
                  We know that Satan, Lucifer the devil was in the garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve. So we know that he had already been cast out of heaven into the earth. He certainly hasn't been back to heaven since, so when do you think he was cast out? The book of Abraham does not contradict any statement I have made and Satan most certainly could have been cast out after the earth had been created.
                  I believe the Garden is in a heavenly dimension not an earthly dimension, where dimensions may exist together in the same locations such as near an earthly Eden, but where the heavenly dimension isn't accessible unless God allows it. Further as I said earlier I don't believe Satan was ever cast down to the Garden, I believe he was created as a cherub in the Garden to be one of the helpers to Adam in Genesis 2, and has access to it until Michael casts him out into the earth, as Adam was cast out of the Garden into the earth.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by onefour1 View Post
                    We believe that a great sign in the heaven appeared unto John the Revelator. He saw a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars which represents the Kingdom of God on the earth and the crown represents his twelve tribes of Israel/and also the 12 apostles. The woman was with child and was in pain to give birth which represents the Savior of mankind to come forth out of the Kingdom of God.
                    That does not answer WHEN you think it happened. You just restated WHAT happened with a bit of commentary on the meaning of a few of the signs. I'll ask again... WHEN did this happen?
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by onefour1 View Post
                      I'm not making the connection on this one.
                      Because Revelation says "the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Since this supposedly happened BEFORE the fall, there was nothing satan could accuse "the brethren" of before God. So, no sin, no accusation.


                      And "the brethren" could not have been Michael and the angels, since angels can not die.

                      Rev 12:11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death

                      How could one who could not die be faced with death?
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      - Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment

                      widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                      Working...
                      X