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Pray to/worship the Lord Jesus or not?

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  • #31
    1. 1 Pete 3:12
    a. The Greek word used for "prayers" is deesis and it is defined by Thayer as "in the N.T. requests addressed by men to God". Next to 1 Peter 3:12 he cites James 5:16. This passage also refers to praying to God.
    b. The LDS teaches 1 Peter 3:12 is a prayer:
    We pray! It is everyone’s sure way to know; it is everyone’s lifeline to heaven. Said the Apostle Peter, “The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers.”18
    Footnote #18: 1 Peter 3:12
    https://www.lds.org/liahona/2010/05/...-09285_000_007

    Do you still maintain that 1 Peter 3:12 is not a prayer?


    2.2 Corinthians 12:8
    Here's my evidence that this prayer was directed to the Lord Jesus:
    a. NIDNTT: In this way the early church bears witness to the fact that it regards Jesus Christ as its Lord and living head, who, having conquered death, is alive for evermore. Consequently one can enter into living, personal contact with him, talking with him just as one did when he was on earth (cf. Acts 9:10-16; 2 Cor. 12:8f) (2:867, Prayer, H. Schonweiss).
    c. NIDNTT: Paul also mentions the word that the exalted Lord spoke to him: "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness" (v. 9) (3:315, Revelation, W. Mundle).
    b. TDNT: Paul tells us that three times he called on the risen Lord in vain for deliverance from the angel of Satan (5:794, parakalew, Schmitz).
    c. Danker: 8- In view of the context, v. 9, it is probable that Paul addressed these three petitions to Christ. If such is the case, it is a unique departure from Paul's custom, which is to address God as the one who is ultimately responsible for everything (cf. 5:18; Rom. 11:33-36). Paul's Jewish liturgical tradition is still firmly entrenched, but Christ is the natural object of his petition here, for it is in the proclamation of his service for all humanity that Paul is engaged. An answer coming from Christ will indeed be especially meaningful (Augsburg Commentary on the New Testament: 2 Corinthians, page 194).
    d. Vine: Prayer is properly addressed to God the Father, Matt. 6:6; John 16:23; Eph. 1:17; 3:14, and the Son, Acts 7:59; 2 Cor. 12:8 (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Prayer, page 872).
    e. Murray Harris: It is scarcely open to question that the person addressed in Paul's plea for relief from the battering of the messenger of Satan was the Lord Jesus (The New International Greek Testament Commentary, 2 Corinthians, Murray J. Harris, page 860).
    f. R.T. France: In 2 Corinthians 12:8, for instance, who was the 'Lord" to whom Paul prayed? Normally his prayers are addressed to God, but "my power" in the answer to Paul's prayer appears to be identified with 'the power of Christ' (verse 9). It seems then that for Paul, Jesus was already so much identified with God that the same language was naturally applicable to each ("The Worship of Jesus - A Neglected Factor In Christological Debate?", R.T. France, Vox Evangelica, 12, c. 1981, 19-33 -> This quote here appears on page 29).

    Not only do they affirm this prayer is to the Lord Jesus but they also point out the context teaches the same thing.
    Let's see your evidence that this prayer was not directed to the Lord Jesus.


    3. Acts 1:24
    This is part of what I previously wrote concerning this passage
    "Your point would be valid if there were no more prayers to the Lord Jesus after this event but that is not the case at all."
    The rest of the N.T. is against your position.


    4. Doxologies
    Is it ok to sing TO Jesus?


    5. John 5:23 - The level of their worship ought to be in equality. Terrible ploy by you attempting to sidetrack this.


    6. Acts 7:59
    The vision is said to have taken place inside the city while his martyrdom occurred outside of it.

    55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
    56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
    57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
    58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
    (Acts 7:55-58, KJV)
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...+7&version=KJV

    Prove your assertion that Stephen "was looking at Jesus in vision as he died."


    7. 1 Corinthians 1:2
    Thanks for your opinion about what to call upon the name of the Lord means. I'll stick with how the words of the Bible are properly defined.


    8. Not enough time to address 2 Nephi 25:29? It took me 4 times posting it but somehow you had time to address other things I had written about.
    The Old Testament understanding of what is written is said to refer to prayer. That's how the Jews understood it as well as the Lord Jesus.


    9. No it is not a doxology to the Lord Jesus by McConkie because Mormons have a false Christ. One of the reasons why is that they do not pray to Him. This is their official yet contradictory teaching. (See Post #23 I #4)
    It also runs against how the words of the Bible are properly defined (See #1 and #7 above).


    10. Don't forget about the prayers to the Lord Jesus that I cited in Post #29.
    Last edited by foudroyant; 04-26-2014, 06:32 AM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
      Don't forget these prayers to the Lord Jesus as well:

      1 Thessalonians 3:11...

      All you are doing is quoting people who broaden the definition of "prayer" to include other kinds of praise and worship; like "doxologies" and so forth. In fact, if you are going to include these kinds of worship as "prayer", then Mormons do that all of the time. And then by using that kind of definition I would say that LDS do "pray" to Jesus.

      However, Jesus was speaking of a more specific type of communication between God and man when He taught:

      Mat 6:9 Pray, then, in this way: Our Father who is in heaven…”

      John 15:16 “…whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”

      John 16:23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

      Luke 11:12 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven,


      LDS can tell the difference. It is too bad that you cannot. And again carbon dioxide was correct when he said you are merely manufacturing a debate by ignoring what LDS actually mean when we speak of prayer, which was the same that Jesus meant in the 4 scriptures cited above.


      -7up

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
        1. 1 Pete 3:12
        a. The Greek word used for "prayers" is deesis and it is defined by Thayer as "in the N.T. requests addressed by men to God". Next to 1 Peter 3:12 he cites James 5:16. This passage also refers to praying to God.
        b. The LDS teaches 1 Peter 3:12 is a prayer:
        We pray! It is everyone’s sure way to know; it is everyone’s lifeline to heaven. Said the Apostle Peter, “The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers.”18
        Footnote #18: 1 Peter 3:12
        https://www.lds.org/liahona/2010/05/...-09285_000_007

        Do you still maintain that 1 Peter 3:12 is not a prayer?
        That is correct. It is a teaching ABOUT prayer. These words themselves are not a prayer. Nice try though. This is just another example of you loosening the definition of prayer in attempt to make an argument. Now, suddenly, any mention of prayer is pretended by you to be part of an actual prayer.


        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
        2.2 Corinthians 12:8
        Here's my evidence that this prayer was directed to the Lord Jesus:

        c. Danker: 8- In view of the context, v. 9, it is probable that Paul addressed these three petitions to Christ. If such is the case, it is a unique departure from Paul's custom, which is to address God as the one who is ultimately responsible for everything (cf. 5:18; Rom. 11:33-36).
        f. R.T. France: In 2 Corinthians 12:8, for instance, who was the 'Lord" to whom Paul prayed? Normally his prayers are addressed to God, but "my power" in the answer to Paul's prayer appears to be identified with 'the power of Christ' (verse 9).

        Not only do they affirm this prayer is to the Lord Jesus but they also point out the context teaches the same thing.
        Let's see your evidence that this prayer was not directed to the Lord Jesus.

        I placed in bold the portions which support the LDS position on the matter. 1) you have to make assumptions 2) directing prayer to Jesus is not considered the norm

        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
        4. Doxologies
        Is it ok to sing TO Jesus?
        I can't think of any reason why I would sing ONLY to Jesus, and purposely leave out or exclude God the Father.


        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
        5. John 5:23 - The level of their worship ought to be in equality. Terrible ploy by you attempting to sidetrack this.
        It isn't a side track. It is very important to the LDS position that we have one kind of relationship with God that Father and another kind of relationship with Jesus Christ, because they are not the same person.


        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
        6. Acts 7:59
        The vision is said to have taken place inside the city while his martyrdom occurred outside of it.
        That is probably true, but it is STILL an extraordinary circumstance, having just seen the Savior in vision. The prayer is outside of the norm. He was being stoned to death, and I think we can forgive improper etiquette in such a circumstance.


        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
        8. Not enough time to address 2 Nephi 25:29?
        I did address it. In fact, I addressed it BEYOND what was necessary. Along with all of your other silly arguments and word games.


        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
        9. No it is not a doxology to the Lord Jesus by McConkie
        Yes it is. Based on broadening the definition of prayer to ANY kind of praise of Jesus, it would be considered a doxology and according to you, a "prayer."

        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
        ... because Mormons have a false Christ. One of the reasons why is that they do not pray to Him. This is their official yet contradictory teaching.
        Funny how LDS follow Christ's teachings in the Bible better than you do, despite supposedly having a false Christ. How's that for contradiction?

        -7up
        Last edited by seven7up; 04-26-2014, 03:08 PM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by seven7up View Post
          It is very important to the LDS position that we have one kind of relationship with God that Father and another kind of relationship with Jesus Christ, because they are not the same person.
          Hey, 7! How ya doin?

          Does it bother you at all that, in the beginning, Smith pretty much taught the Trinity, and only subsequently came up with a more Modalistic version, then the "many gods" version?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Hey, 7! How ya doin?
            Great! How are you?

            I will respond on a different thread, as this appears to be an unrelated topic that you bring up.

            Likewise, if foudroyant would like to accuse LDS of having a "false Christ", I think he should start another thread, pick what he feels is the MOST powerful argument for such a position, and state his case.

            -7up

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by seven7up View Post
              Great! How are you?

              I will respond on a different thread, as this appears to be an unrelated topic that you bring up.

              Likewise, if foudroyant would like to accuse LDS of having a "false Christ", I think he should start another thread, pick what he feels is the MOST powerful argument for such a position, and state his case.

              -7up
              Fair enough!

              (And we're doing GREAT -- wife has just become a breast cancer survivor, and is doing super)
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #37
                1. So Psalm 34:15-16 and 1 Peter 3:12 is teaching about prayer but since it isn't a prayer being said we shouldn't cite it about directing the prayer to its proper recipient?

                2. 2 Corintians 12:8 - We have a probable from Danker and a yes from the others I cited but still the LDS insists that this passage does not teach prayer to the Lord Jesus. Incredible.

                3. You didn't answer my question concerning singing to Jesus. Let me rephrase it to help you.
                Is it ok to ever sing directly to Jesus?

                4. John 5:23
                You dodged this part: The level of their worship ought to be in equality.

                5. Acts 7:59
                So if people were aware they were just about to die is it ok for them to pray directly to the Lord Jesus?

                6. To "love the Lord your God and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul" does include praying to Him. This is not a word game but simply a dodge by you (See Post #17).

                7. If LDS follow Christ's teachings in the Bible they would not forbid praying to the Him because Paul prayed to the Lord Jesus did in these passages (which of course you continually dodge).
                1 Thessalonians 3:11-13
                Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you; so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. (1 Thessalonians 3:11-13. NASB).
                1. Hogg and Vine: This verse is of much importance because of the doctrine of the Deity of Christ therein implied. The Epistle, it will be remembered, is one of the earliest Christian documents, and as such supplies most valuable testimony to primitive Apostolic teaching. From this verse then it is evident that the Thessalonians had been taught to think of the Lord Jesus as One with God, for: -
                a, Prayer is addressed to the Lord Jesus cojointly with the Father. It is equally important to notice that the Lord Jesus is united with the Father in respect of His Godhead, He is distinguished from the Father in respect of His personality:
                b, The Lord Jesus is associated with God the Father as controller of the ways of men:
                c, the Greek verb translated "direct" is in the singular number notwithstanding that two names form its subject. Thus the simple grammatical law, that a verb must agree with its subject in number, is set aside in order that the unique relationship existing between the Persons may be indicated:
                d, the sentence may be translated thus: But God Himself, even our Father and our Lord Jesus, direct our way unto you.
                (Galatians and Thessalonians, page 103).
                2. Robertson: Our God and Father himself (αυτος ο τεος και πατηρ ημων — autos ho theos kai patēr hēmōn). Note one article with both substantives for one person.
                And our Lord Jesus (και ο Κυριος ημων Ιησους — kai ho Kurios hēmōn Iēsous). Separate article here with Ιησους — Iēsous In Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1 only one article (not two) treating “our God and Saviour Jesus Christ” as one just like “our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” in 2 Peter 1:11; 2 Peter 2:20; 2 Peter 3:18.
                Direct our way (κατευτυναι την οδον ημων — kateuthunai tēn hodon hēmōn). First aorist optative (acute accent on penult, not circumflex first aorist active infinitive) of κατευτυνω — kateuthunō old verb to make straight path. Singular verb also, though both God and Christ mentioned as subject (unity in the Godhead). Apart from μη γενοιτο — mē genoito (may it not come to pass) the optative in a wish of the third person is found in N.T. only in 1 Thessalonians 3:11, 1 Thessalonians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:17; 2 Thessalonians 3:5, 2 Thessalonians 3:16; Romans 15:5, Romans 15:13.
                On verse 12: The Lord (ο Κυριος — ho Kurios). The Lord Jesus. Paul prays to Christ.
                http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?bk=51&ch=3
                3. Gordon Fee: The present prayer is certain evidence that what Paul says in this next letter is already well in place by the time he writes these earlier letters to the Thessalonian believers. That he does this in such a matter-of-fact way, and without explanation or argumentation, is at the same time sure evidence that he must have previously instructed them not only on the saving work of Christ, but also on who the divine Saviour actually was. So while the opening prayer (v.11) is directed primarily to God the Father, as the emphatic "himself" makes clear, the remarkable inclusion of the Son as the compound subject of the singular verb seems to exist in anticipation of the rest of the prayer, which is directed solely to Christ.
                Two further matters need to be noted, both christological. First, one should observe (a) that Paul can pray to both God the Father and the Lord Jesus together as one (v.11), (b) that he can pray to both together but single out one as the object (grammatical subject) of the concerns of prayer at a given time (vv. 12-13), and (c) that in these earliest two letters he can pray to either separately (for the Father see 1 Thess 1:2-3; 5:23; for Christ see 2 Thess 3:5 and 16).
                Second, even though the first emphasis in this case is on God the Father, the final focus of the prayer is altogether on the Lord Jesus, which makes the singular verb and compound subject in verse 11 seem to be more than Paul's simply taking over "conventional liturgical language to which [he] and his readers were accustomed." (15) Indeed, this same phenomenon happens in reverse in 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17, where Christ is mentioned first (including with the quotes [himself"]) while the pickup, exactly as in the present case, is with prayer addressed to the second divine person mentioned at the outset, namely God the Father. So one simply cannot be dismissive about the role of Christ in the present prayer. Here is a strict monotheist praying with ease to both the Father and the Son, focusing first on the one and then the other, and without a sense that his monotheism is being stretched or is in some kind of danger (The First and Second Letters to the Thessalonians, page 130-131).
                4. George Findlay: The association of “our Lord Jesus” with “God the Father” in acts of prayer and thanksgiving is a very noticeable feature of these two Letters; it affords impressive evidence, coming from the oldest N.T. writings, of the deity of Jesus Christ as this was conceived by the first Christians; the two are so identified that they count as one (cf. the words of Jesus in John 10:30, ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν), blending in the singular optative predicate, κατευθύναι: see also 2 Thessalonians 2:16 f., and note. The petition of 1 Thessalonians 3:12 is addressed to “the Lord” solely. (Cambridge Greek Testament for School's and Colleges)
                http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=51&ch=3

                2 Thessalonians 2:16-17
                Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17, NASB).
                1. Hogg and Vine: For the inference as to the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ see note on "direct" at 3:11 (Galatians and Thessalonians, page 279).
                2. Barnes: Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself - This expression is equivalent to this: “I pray our Lord Jesus, and our Father, to comfort you.” It is really a prayer offered to the Saviour - a recognition of Christ as the source of consolation as well as the Father, and a union of his name with that of the Father in invoking important blessings. It is such language as could be used only by one who regarded the Lord Jesus as divine.
                And God even our Father - Greek: “And God, and ( και kai) our Father;” though not incorrectly rendered “even our Father.” If it should be contended that the use of the word “and” - “our Lord Jesus Christ, and God,” proves that the Lord Jesus is a different being from God - the use of the same word “and” would prove that the “Father” is a different being from God. But the truth is, the apostle meant to speak of the Father and the Son as the common Source of the blessing for which he prayed.
                http://www.studylight.org/com/bnb/view.cgi?bk=52&ch=2

                2 Thessalonians 3:16
                Now may the Lord of peace Himself continually grant you peace in every circumstance. The Lord be with you all! (2 Thessalonians 3:16, NASB)
                1. NIDNTT: Concerning Jesus: He is the kyrios of peace and gives peace (2 Thess. 3:16), mercy (2 Tim. 1:16), and insight (2 Tim. 2:7) (2:517, Lord, H. Bietenhard).
                2. NIDNTT: 1 Thess. 3:10-13; 2 Thess 2:16 and 2 Thess. 3:16 are listed under "Intercessory prayer for others, including blessings and cursings" (2:874, Prayer, H. Schonweiss, C, Brown).
                3. Hogg and Vine: as the title "God of peace" refers to the Father, so "Lord of peace" is best understood of the Son. (Galatians and Thessalonians, page 292)
                4. Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown: Lord of peace — Jesus Christ. The same title is given to Him as to the Father, “the God of peace” (Romans 15:33; Romans 16:20; 2 Corinthians 13:11). An appropriate title in the prayer here, where the harmony of the Christian community was liable to interruption from the “disorderly.” The Greek article requires the translation, “Give you the peace” which it is “His to give.” “Peace” outward and inward, here and hereafter (Romans 14:17). always — unbroken, not changing with outward circumstances.
                by all means — Greek, “in every way.” Most of the oldest manuscripts read, “in every place”; thus he prays for their peace in all times (“always”) and places.
                Lord be with you all — May He bless you not only with peace, but also with His presence (Matthew 28:20). Even the disorderly brethren (compare 2 Thessalonians 3:15, “a brother”) are included in this prayer.
                http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?bk=52&ch=3
                5. George Findlay: “The Lord of peace” is surely Christ, as in the whole context (see note on κύριος, 2 Thessalonians 3:1 above), and regularly with St Paul. The previous context—2 Thessalonians 3:14 especially—suggests this prayer; the “peace” desired has reference to the Church troubles of the hour. (Cambridge Greek Testament for School's and Colleges)
                http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=52&ch=3


                8. Not only did you dodge the above passages you change what to "call upon the name of the Lord" means. The reason for this is because it proves that the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer (Post #28).
                Last edited by foudroyant; 04-26-2014, 07:18 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  1. So Psalm 34:15-16 and 1 Peter 3:12 is teaching about prayer but since it isn't a prayer being said we shouldn't cite it about directing the prayer to its proper recipient?
                  You can cite it all you want. Just don't pretend that it is, itself, a prayer. Nor is the verse intended to teach a formula for prayer that would supersede what Christ personally taught. The Lord DOES hear and respond to our prayers, according to the will of God the Father.

                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  2. 2 Corintians 12:8 - We have a probable from Danker and a yes from the others I cited but still the LDS insists that this passage does not teach prayer to the Lord Jesus. Incredible.
                  c. Danker: it is probable that Paul addressed these three petitions to Christ. If such is the case, it is a unique departure from Paul's custom, which is to address God as the one who is ultimately responsible for everything (cf. 5:18; Rom. 11:33-36).
                  f. R.T. France: In 2 Corinthians 12:8, for instance, who was the 'Lord" to whom Paul prayed? Normally his prayers are addressed to God, but "my power" in the answer to Paul's prayer appears to be identified with 'the power of Christ' (verse 9).


                  I'll tell you what is "incredible"; that you think that a "probable departure" from the custom of prayer should constitute as a reason to disregard Christ's teachings on how we should pray. It is incredible that even though Paul's prayers are "normally" addressed to God, you think that we should do it some other way. And the argument that 'the power of Christ' is involved does not indicate that the exact wording of the prayer (which we are not given) was specifically directed to the Son while excluding the Father.

                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  3. You didn't answer my question concerning singing to Jesus. Let me rephrase it to help you.
                  Is it ok to ever sing directly to Jesus?
                  Sure. There are probably times/situations where it is o.k. I just can't think of any example off the top of my head where the God the Father would be excluded.

                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  4. John 5:23
                  You dodged this part: The level of their worship ought to be in equality.
                  It is annoying when I address scriptural verses that you post over and over and then you claim that I "dodged" it. First, I quoted the verse in context:

                  John 5:23 (with some context) - "For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. "

                  Then I explained how this verse says that we should "honor" the Father AND the Son, which is true. However, it does not even approach the issue of prayer in the way that you imply it does. Not even close. Then you tried to bring in Mathew 11:25, as if it supported your baseless assertion/implication for John 5:23, to which I responded:

                  "Don't you realize how much you have to stretch to get there? You have to quote an entirely unrelated scripture, and avoid that Christ's example of praying to the Father was also a teaching of how we are supposed to worship. How can following Christ's specific instructions and example when it comes to prayer be a form of dishonor? That is nonsense. I call following Christ's instructions "obedience", not dishonor."

                  Then you quoted, "Both Danker and Thayer cite John 1:23 and Acts 15:8 with John 5:23 demonstrating that the Greek word "kathws" (even as) means equally in John 5:23 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, kathws, page 493), (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, kathws, page 314)."

                  To which I gave the "tongue in cheek" response - Great. Then you agree that the disciples are "one" with Jesus "even as" Jesus is "one" with the Father. Does that mean they are gods? (See John chapter 17.) Are you now going to agree with Catholics that you can pray to the saints? ----

                  And I went on to explain more of the context of John 5:23: "{This verse} is not teaching about prayer. This portion of the chapter is talking about the resurrection. So, many LDS will agree with the idea that the Father and the Son are equal in that sense."

                  I answered again and again that Christ IS to be worshiped. However, when LDS approach God in prayer, we do so according to the way that Jesus taught. He did not teach "pray directly to me." No. He said, "When you pray, do it in this way, ... pray to the Father, in my name."

                  You are kicking against the pricks foudroyant, and I have not "dodged" anything.

                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  5. Acts 7:59
                  So if people were aware they were just about to die is it ok for them to pray directly to the Lord Jesus?
                  For starters, we don't know everything that Stephen said in that event. However, even if we assume that these were the only words that Stephen said, when a person is being stoned to death, it is understandable if he/she forgets or is unable to perform some of the formal aspects of prayer and worship. Again, this is not an example which should negate what Jesus Christ taught about how we should approach God in prayer. None of your citations are good examples.

                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  6. To "love the Lord your God and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul" does include praying to Him. This is not a word game but simply a dodge by you (See Post #17).
                  You are kidding right? It is a game with you. You are implying that Mormons cannot love and serve Jesus because when we pray, we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus. What an utterly foolish argument you make. Furthermore, I did not "dodge" the question, I answered this very same issue in post 11 in reference to 2 Nephi 25:29. I said:

                  For starters, Nephi is coming from a perspective (along with his audience) which had somewhat of an Old Testament understanding of Deity under the Law of Moses.

                  Remember that McConkie said, "be it remembered that most scriptures that speak of God or of the Lord do not even bother to distinguish the Father from the Son..." This is especially true before the New Testament church. Then I continued:

                  Either way, it was understood, as is found in the general definition of worship, that Jesus is to be adored, revered, respected, and followed. "The feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity" is absolutely included with this. The teachings that we live by are provided by Christ, the Holy One of Israel.


                  Then I quoted McConkie again:

                  "The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship." Later McConkie writes, "It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son"

                  So, let's get this clear in your head, foudroyant. Simply because we follow Christ's instructions to pray to Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ, does not mean that we do not worship Jesus. it does not mean that we do not adore Jesus. It does not mean that we do not love or serve Jesus. We certainly do all of those things. In fact, we do it to such an extent, that we follow his instructions when he taught, repeatedly, concerning how we should pray.

                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  7. If LDS follow Christ's teachings in the Bible they would not forbid praying to the Him because Paul prayed to the Lord Jesus did in these passages (which of course you continually dodge). ... 1 Thessalonians 3:11-13
                  Concerning those scriptures which are not directed to any individual person, and which are not actual prayers according to the meaning that we are discussing. I wrote:

                  All you are doing is quoting people who broaden the definition of "prayer" to include other kinds of praise and worship; like "doxologies" and so forth. In fact, if you are going to include these kinds of worship as "prayer", then Mormons do that all of the time. And then by using that kind of definition, I would say that LDS do "pray" to Jesus.

                  However, Jesus was speaking of a more specific type of communication between God and man when He taught:


                  Mat 6:9 Pray, then, in this way: Our Father who is in heaven…”

                  John 15:16 “…whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”

                  John 16:23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

                  Luke 11:12 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven,


                  "...you are merely manufacturing a debate by ignoring what LDS actually mean when we speak of prayer, which was the same that Jesus meant in the 4 scriptures cited above."

                  In summary, the citations you are referring to do not fall into the category of worship that Jesus and LDS are referring to in the context of this conversation. I did not ignore them. My response was direct and clear. IF you are going to consider a "doxology" as a prayer, then sure, it is O.K. to "pray" about Jesus and LDS do that kind of "prayer" very often.

                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  8. Not only did you dodge the above passages you change what to "call upon the name of the Lord" means. The reason for this is because it proves that the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer (Post #28).
                  It "proves" no such thing. Again, I repeat:

                  - Remember "that most scriptures that speak of God or of the Lord do not even bother to distinguish the Father from the Son..." Therefore, you have to make "an assumption" that a general term such as "God" or "Lord" is referring to Jesus and Jesus alone.

                  - Even when LDS are specifically praying with the formula of directing prayer to God the Father and "in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ", this IS "calling upon the name of the Lord". LDS are doing everything, including ordinances, service, prayers, hymns, home teaching, etc. "in the name of Jesus Christ". So, "calling upon the Lord" more than just a formula for prayer, it is a way of living and acting. How can you possibly complain that doing everything in the name of Jesus Christ the Lord, including prayer, is not considered "calling on the name of the Lord"? Because we don't purposefully exclude God the Father? Is that really a reasonable argument from your perspective?

                  This invented issue that anti-Mormons have come up with (against the LDS praying in the way that Jesus taught) is a waste of time. And if you accuse me again of supposedly "dodging" your poorly constructed, repeat arguments, the conversation is over.

                  -7up
                  Last edited by seven7up; 04-27-2014, 01:42 AM. Reason: typo

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                  • #39
                    What a disastrous mess.

                    There is no way I am going to go through all of your confusion and correct it.

                    Numerous lexicons and dictionaries affirm that 1 Corinthians 1:2 teaches prayer to the Lord Jesus but the Mormons teach this is a no-no.

                    I noticed you didn't cite just one authority for your assertion which makes your opinion stink something awful.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by foudroyant View Post

                      I noticed you didn't cite just one authority for your assertion which makes your opinion stink something awful.
                      Not true,

                      I cited the authority that matters the most:

                      Mat 6:9 Pray, then, in this way: Our Father who is in heaven…”

                      John 15:16 “…whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”

                      John 16:23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

                      Luke 11:12 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven,




                      With those scriptures in mind, I have a question for you to ask in your prayers tonight. Feel free to ask Jesus directly if you want. Ask him this:

                      Should Christian believers be taught, as a general practice, to exclude God the Father when praying?




                      Good luck with that. Just a heads up.


                      -7up

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Anyone can cite passages. The question is do they teach what you are claiming and the answer is no.
                        1 Corinthians 1:2 disproves your claim. Plenty of lexicons concerning this passage overthrow what the Mormons teach but hey they want to play fairy tale word games instead.

                        Your question presents a false dichotomy because I also pray to the Father.
                        From my Post #25:
                        I also pray to the Father (Acts 4:24-40; Galatians 1:5; James 3:9; etc.).
                        Last edited by foudroyant; 04-27-2014, 02:12 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                          Plenty of lexicons concerning this passage overthrow what the Mormons teach ....
                          Mormons simply teach what Christ taught: to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. Why would you want to overthrow the teachings of Jesus?


                          -7up
                          Last edited by seven7up; 04-29-2014, 09:10 PM. Reason: grammar

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            1 Corinthians 1:2 belongs in the Bible as well does it not?

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                            • #44
                              Um, if Jesus is YHWH in the OT like the Mormons claim, then...

                              1. He not only accepted prayer, he commanded it!
                              2. When Jesus was on earth, the Jews still worshiped and prayed to YHWH. So when Jesus told them to pray to God, he was telling them to pray to himself. And he was calling himself the Father! (foot, shot again)

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Um, if Jesus is YHWH in the OT like the Mormons claim, then...

                                ...
                                2. When Jesus was on earth, the Jews still worshiped and prayed to YHWH. So when Jesus told them to pray to God, he was telling them to pray to himself. And he was calling himself the Father! (foot, shot again)


                                You are a modalist then?

                                Yeah, you are shooting yourself in the foot there.

                                --7up

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