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Pray to/worship the Lord Jesus or not?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    OK thank you. So I then understand that the LDS believe it was/is ok to pray to the Lord Jesus as long as he was/is not out of their physical presence.

    Is this correct?
    -----------------------------------
    It is an extraordinary circumstance, and outside what Jesus taught when it comes to prayer, however, yes, Jesus did not forbid them in those circumstances. So, it appears to be o.k. However, I don't think that it is wise to base your practice of worship on the exceptions to the rule. I will go over the scriptures you cited in the next post.

    Now, you did not answer my question.

    Can you give the LDS a good reason why we should NOT pray in the way that Jesus taught us to pray?


    -7up

    Comment


    • #17
      1. To insist that all these prayers to the Lord Jesus are "exceptions" would make your rule "die the death of a thousand qualifications".
      2. I already answered your question in my previous post:
      a. Mark Byrd already pointed out that the Lord's Prayer does NOT cover everything concerning prayer.
      We need to look at what ALL the passages of the Bible teach concerning prayer in order to formulate our doctrine.
      b. Luke (and others) record prayers that were properly directed to the Lord Jesus elsewhere.
      3. Returning to the command to worship the Lord Jesus with all of one's might, mind, strength and all of one's soul (cf. 2 Nephi 25:29) this is to be understood in the context of prayer:
      Richard N. Longenecker: There is no commandment in the Jewish Scriptures that says simply "Thou shalt pray!" Rather, what one finds is a verse like Deut 11:13, which calls on Israel "to love the Lord your God and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul." The rabbis of the Talmud asked about this verse: "What kind of service is it that takes place in the heart"? And they answered their own question: "It is prayer!" (b. Ta' anith 2a). (Studies in Paul, Exegetical and Theological, page 33).
      Last edited by foudroyant; 04-22-2014, 08:50 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
        Cited:
        b. We also see that the Lord's Prayer is recorded by Luke (11:2 f.) and we know that Luke records several prayers to the Lord Jesus so it does not mean that prayers are not to be rendered unto the Lord Jesus (Acts 1:24-25; 7:59-60; 9:14, 21; 22:16).
        c. Paul taught that the Lord Jesus is to be prayed to (1 Corinthians 1:2; Romans 10:13; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Thessalonians 3:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 3:16; 2 Timothy 2:22; 2 Timothy 4:18).
        d. Peter taught that the Lord Jesus is to be prayed to (1 Peter 3:12; 2 Peter 3:18).
        e. John taught that the Lord Jesus is to be prayed to (John 5:23; Revelation 1:5-6).
        Let's start with these last two examples you gave:

        John 5:23 (with some context) - "For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. "

        Revelation 1:5-6 (with some context) - 4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

        Based on these two scriptures, you posted the claim that, "John taught that the Lord Jesus is to be prayed to". They don't even come close to supporting that claim.

        But those are at the end of the list of Biblical citations you provided, and maybe the person who made the list just thought people would get tired of looking up scriptures by then. Let's do the next ones up.

        "For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil." (1 Peter 3:12)

        "But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen" (2 Peter 3:18)


        The second citation doesn't really address the issue, so there isn't much to say about that, other than the fact that it does not support your argument. The first scripture discusses "the Lord" and how his ears are open to prayers. For starters, the title of "Lord" can refer either to God the Father or to Jesus Christ (or sometimes it just refers to Deity in general). However, let's be very charitable to your position and assume that in this case it must be referring specifically to Jesus, because many, many times the title "Lord" does refer to Jesus. So, I am willing to humor you a little here, because we can learn something about the relationship that we have with Deity.

        When we pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus, Jesus Christ is known as the "mediator". He is involved with the divine response to prayer and acts within that role. When you ask whether or not LDS worship Jesus, the answer is yes. However, there is a difference between the relationship that we have with God the Father and the relationship we have with the Savior. This is described in 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus." Also see Romans 8:34, which teaches that Jesus Christ "is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us”.

        So, the idea that Jesus is attentive to our prayers does not necessarily indicate that we are being asked to pray directly to Jesus. Indeed, to "call on the Lord" means that we are praying to God (the Father) "in the name" of the Lord (Jesus), so that Jesus may "intercede" in our behalf. Indeed, the early Christians would say that they "call on the Lord", which is short for "call on the name of the Lord". All of these teachings are consistent with the way that we as Mormons pray, in the name of Jesus Christ.

        Keeping that in mind, let's see a couple more of the scriptures cited:

        "Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart." - 2 Timothy 2:22
        "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours." - 1 Corinthians 1:2
        "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." - Romans 10:13


        Now, you will find some examples like Paul asking to have his infirmity removed, and he says, "Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me." (2 Corinthians 12:8)

        What is going on here? Again, if the Lord refers to Jesus specifically, Paul is asking Jesus to "intercede". So, even when addressing "the Lord", Paul would be asking Jesus to "mediate" to the Father for Paul (on Paul's behalf). The Father remains the focal point of prayer.

        Many of the examples given on that list, like this one, are not word for word prayers, but instead a summary of what was prayed about and you have to make assumptions about the actual wording.

        Again, I don't possibly see how you think that these examples are a contradiction or substitute for Christ's clear teachings concerning how we should pray, which is to the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ..

        -7up

        Comment


        • #19
          A. John 5:23
          1. One of the ways the Lord Jesus honored the Father (John 8:49) was by praying to Him (Matthew 11:25). Just as the Father is honored by our prayers to Him the Son is honored by our prayers to Him. Refusal to pray to the Son dishonors the Father.
          2. Both Danker and Thayer cite John 1:23 and Acts 15:8 with John 5:23 demonstrating that the Greek word "kathws" (even as) means equally in John 5:23 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, kathws, page 493), (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, kathws, page 314).

          B. Revelation 1:5-6 is a doxology and a doxology is a prayer of praise to God. The same holds true with 2 Peter 3:18 as well as 2 Timothy 4:18.

          C. 1 Peter 3:12 - This is a citation from Psalm 34:15-16b. Just as it refers to praying to the Father in the OT it refers to praying to the Lord Jesus in the New Testament.
          Are you saying it doesn't refer to praying to the Father in the Old Testament?

          D. To call upon the name of the Lord always refers to praying to the Lord. In the New Testament calling on the name of the Lord is used in reference to the Lord Jesus and it means praying to Him.
          http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...the-Lord-Jesus

          E. Your response concerning 2 Corinthians 12:8 won't work. By asking Jesus to intercede Paul is praying to Jesus. If as you say Paul isn't praying to Jesus then what do you call it?

          F. I'd like to see the evidence that Acts 1:24-25 is a prayer to the Father.
          http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...the-Lord-Jesus

          Comment


          • #20
            John 5:23 (with some context) - "For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. "

            Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
            A. John 5:23
            1. One of the ways the Lord Jesus honored the Father (John 8:49) was by praying to Him (Matthew 11:25). Just as the Father is honored by our prayers to Him the Son is honored by our prayers to Him. Refusal to pray to the Son dishonors the Father.
            Don't you realize how much you have to stretch to get there? You have to quote an entirely unrelated scripture, and avoid that Christ's example of praying to the Father was also a teaching of how we are supposed to worship. How can following Christ's specific instructions and example when it comes to prayer be a form of dishonor? That is nonsense. I call following Christ's instructions "obedience", not dishonor.

            Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
            2. Both Danker and Thayer cite John 1:23 and Acts 15:8 with John 5:23 demonstrating that the Greek word "kathws" (even as) means equally in John 5:23 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, kathws, page 493), (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, kathws, page 314).
            Tongue in Cheek:
            ----- Great. Then you agree that the disciples are "one" with Jesus "even as" Jesus is "one" with the Father. Does that mean they are gods? (See John chapter 17.) Are you now going to agree with Catholics that you can pray to the saints? ----


            John 5:23 is not teaching about prayer. This portion of the chapter is talking about the resurrection. So, many LDS will agree with the idea that the Father and the Son are equal in that sense.

            Revelation 1:5-6 (with some context) - 4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

            Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
            B. Revelation 1:5-6 is a doxology and a doxology is a prayer of praise to God. The same holds true with 2 Peter 3:18 as well as 2 Timothy 4:18.
            That doesn't help your argument in the slightest.

            -7up

            Comment


            • #21
              1. John 5:23
              Robertson: Jesus claims here the same right to worship from men that the Father has. Dishonoring Jesus is dishonoring the Father who sent him (8:49; 12:26; 15:23; 1 John 2:23). See also Luke 10:16. There is small comfort here for those who praise Jesus as teacher and yet deny his claims to worship.
              http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?bk=42&ch=5

              The Father is to be prayed to in worship and the Lord Jesus is to be prayed to in worship.


              2. 2 Timothy 4:18; 2 Peter 3:18 and Revelation 1:5-6 are doxologies to the Lord Jesus. Thus He is prayed to.

              3. You ignored 1 Peter 3:12. You dodged my question. Here it is again:
              This is a citation from Psalm 34:15-16b. Just as it refers to praying to the Father in the OT it refers to praying to the Lord Jesus in the New Testament.
              Are you saying it doesn't refer to praying to the Father in the Old Testament?

              4. You ignored 2 Corinthians 12:8. You dodged my question again. Here it is again:
              By asking Jesus to intercede Paul is praying to Jesus. If as you say Paul isn't praying to Jesus then what do you call it?

              5. You ignored Acts 1:24-25. This is what I wanted to know:
              I'd like to see the evidence that Acts 1:24-25 is a prayer to the Father.
              http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...the-Lord-Jesus

              6. You ignored "calling on the name of the Lord".
              http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...the-Lord-Jesus

              7. You ignored this as well from post #17:
              Returning to the command to worship the Lord Jesus with all of one's might, mind, strength and all of one's soul (cf. 2 Nephi 25:29) this is to be understood in the context of prayer:
              Richard N. Longenecker: There is no commandment in the Jewish Scriptures that says simply "Thou shalt pray!" Rather, what one finds is a verse like Deut 11:13, which calls on Israel "to love the Lord your God and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul." The rabbis of the Talmud asked about this verse: "What kind of service is it that takes place in the heart"? And they answered their own question: "It is prayer!" (b. Ta' anith 2a). (Studies in Paul, Exegetical and Theological, page 33).
              How then does this passage from the Book of Mormon not teach the Lord Jesus is to be prayed to? I supplied evidence that it does so please supply evidence that affirms your position.
              Last edited by foudroyant; 04-23-2014, 02:31 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                "For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil." (1 Peter 3:12)

                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                C. 1 Peter 3:12 - This is a citation from Psalm 34:15-16b. Just as it refers to praying to the Father in the OT it refers to praying to the Lord Jesus in the New Testament. Are you saying it doesn't refer to praying to the Father in the Old Testament?
                Psalms doesn't specify whether it was referring to the Father or the Son. The Son "inherited" the Father's name, and is a perfect representative of the Father (see Heb 1). Our relationship with Deity did not come into clarity until the New Testament. I actually DO suspect that the Angel of the Lord's presence and Jehovah/Yahweh of the Old Testament ARE Jesus Christ pre-incarnate. So, when the Psalms say, "The eyes of the LORD are toward the righteous, And His ears are open to their cry," it is likely referring to Jesus before mortality. If you think about it, mankind was alienated from God the Father after the Fall of Adam. Who then were the people directly interacting with? Answer: Jehovah, who was the pre-mortal Jesus Christ. However, with the atonement of the Savior, we then had access to the Father , through Jesus Christ. Make sense?

                Basing your teachings on the understanding of God and worship under the Mosaic law or Old Testament interactions with Yahweh/Jehovah does not help you very much in this discussion. Why deny the fact that Jesus taught us how to pray to the Father and in the name of Jesus Christ in the New Testament? With this teaching provided by the Savior, I think the LDS have a consistent way of communicating with God, and from a reliable source ... Jesus himself.

                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                D. To call upon the name of the Lord always refers to praying to the Lord. In the New Testament calling on the name of the Lord is used in reference to the Lord Jesus and it means praying to Him.
                So, let's say that we have person A and person B. You think that it makes sense to pray to person B in the name of that same person (i.e. person B). You say that we must pray to Jesus in the name of Jesus? Hmmm. That contradicts all the other passages where Jesus Christ explained how to pray.

                So look, Praying to Jesus directly isn't how Jesus taught us to pray, but if that is how you want to do it, then go for it. I won't stop you.

                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                E. Your response concerning 2 Corinthians 12:8 won't work. By asking Jesus to intercede Paul is praying to Jesus. If as you say Paul isn't praying to Jesus then what do you call it?
                Intercede to whom? Jesus is going to respect the authority of whom? And fulfill the will of whom? Paul certainly understood that to address the Father through Christ’s name is essentially the same as calling upon Christ because it is Jesus who will enact the will of the Father. Paul clearly knew that Christ serves as the mediator between God and man (2 Tim 2:5). I don’t think Paul was describing any formula for prayer which was contradictory to what Jesus explained, and we don't even see what his actual words were in his actual prayer. To suggest that Paul was teaching a formula for prayer which was to supercede Christ's specific instructions on this matter seems to be stretching the text way too far.

                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                F. I'd like to see the evidence that Acts 1:24-25 is a prayer to the Father.
                I don't think it is a proper prayer at all. In fact, instead of seeking guidance from the Holy Spirit, they were about to revert back to an Old Testament type of practice and ended up asking Jehovah to resolve something by drawing "lots" to see who should be the replacement for Judas.

                "And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen 25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles."

                I don't believe this is a good example for your position, because it does not appear that they were following Christ's instructions. Drawing lots in this situation seems a little out of place, because at this point they should be beyond this method of communication and relation with Deity. And it is not clear whether or not they got their answer from God. Many argue that this was a "rogue" moment for the Apostles because God actually had Paul in mind for the position. This may or may not be the case, nevertheless, as with many things that Jesus taught, (sometimes over and over again), Jesus' words were often forgotten or ignored. It was not until later that they "remembered" His words and were able to make sense of them and then after the Pentecost became more effective instruments.

                So, bottom line on Acts 1:24-25 is this:
                Just because someone did something or said something in the text of scripture, it does not necessarily mean that it is the right thing to do or say. Unless of course, it was Jesus himself who is speaking.

                That takes me back to this very simple question. If Jesus specifically taught that we should pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, can you give me a good reason why LDS should pray in some other way?

                -7up

                Comment


                • #23
                  A. So you believe that Psalm 34:15-16 refers to the Lord Jesus. Then this passage refers to the Lord Jesus being the recipient of prayer.
                  You wrote "I actually DO suspect that the Angel of the Lord's presence and Jehovah/Yahweh of the Old Testament ARE Jesus Christ pre-incarnate."
                  Then Genesis 48:16 would be another prayer to the Lord Jesus:
                  http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...esis-48-15-16)

                  B. Calling on the name of the Lord
                  If you want to make up your own definitions to what this phrase means that is your choice but I refuse to play make believe.

                  C. 2 Corinthians 12:8
                  Paul appealed to the Lord Jesus and by doing so he was praying to Him.

                  D. Acts 1:24-25
                  1. David Peterson: It is important to observe that there are no further examples of such decision making in the NT. As those who were about to enjoy the benefits of the New Covenant, the apostles were using a practice that was sanctioned by God but belonged to the old era. It took place before Pentecost, when the Spirit was poured out in a way that signified a new kind of relationship between God and his people. From Luke's emphasis on the Spirit's role in giving wisdom, guidance, and direction, it would appear that the apostolic example on this occasion is not to be followed by Christians today (106)
                  Footnote #106: There is no basis for the claim that the apostles were wrong to select Matthias and that they should have awaited God's choice of Paul to fill the vacancy. (Pillar New Testament Commentary, Acts, page 128-129).
                  Matthias as an apostle
                  1. God never condemned his apostleship.
                  2. Addressed by the Jews after Peter's proclamation of the gospel (Acts 2:37).
                  3. The Jews who got saved were "continually devoting themselves" to his teaching and fellowship (Acts 2:42).
                  4. He was able to perform signs and wonders (Acts 2:43).
                  5. He was put in jail by the High Priest and Sadducees (Acts 5:18).
                  6. He was flogged for his faith by these officials (Acts 5:40).
                  7. He summoned the disciples to resolve the complaint by the Hellenistic Jews (Acts 6:2).
                  8. He laid hands on the men that were put in charge of this task (Acts 6:6).
                  9. He sent Peter and John to Samaria (Acts 8:14).
                  10. He was there when Barnabas introduced Paul (Acts 9:27).
                  11. His decision was authoritative at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15:6, 22, 23).

                  In fact, the selection of Matthias is even mentioned favorably according to the LDS as found here:
                  The proceeding throughout is deeply significant and instructive. The Eleven fully realized that on them lay the responsibility, and in them was vested the authority, to organize and develop the Church of Christ; that the council or quorum of the apostles was limited to a membership of twelve; and that the new apostle, like themselves, must be competent to testify in special and personal witness concerning the earthly ministry, death, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus. The selection of Matthias was accomplished in a general assembly of the Primitive Church; and while the nominations were made by the apostles, all present appear by implication to have had a voice in the matter of installation. The principle of authoritative administration through common consent of the membership, so impressively exemplified in the choosing of Matthias, was followed, a few weeks later, by the selection of “seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom,” who having been sustained by the vote of the Church, were set apart to a special ministry by the laying-on of the apostles’ hands.
                  https://www.lds.org/manual/jesus-the...query=Matthias

                  and here:
                  Note: If students ask if Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus, will be among the Twelve Apostles who judge the twelve tribes, point out that Matthias was chosen to take Judas Iscariot’s place among the Twelve (see Acts 1:21–26).
                  https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testa...query=Matthias

                  as well as here:
                  The New Testament shows that this Church organization was intended to continue. For example, the death of Judas left only eleven Apostles. Soon after Jesus had ascended into heaven, the eleven Apostles met together to choose someone to take the place of Judas. Through revelation from the Holy Ghost, they chose Matthias. (See Acts 1:23–26.) Jesus had set a pattern for twelve Apostles to govern the Church. It seemed clear that the organization was to continue as He had established it.
                  https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-pr...query=Matthias

                  Acts 1:24-25 destroys the belief that the Lord Jesus is not to be prayed to.

                  E. I have already answered your question twice. This will be the third time. Please pay attention.
                  See Post #17
                  #2

                  F. You ignored this from my Post #21:
                  2 Timothy 4:18; 2 Peter 3:18 and Revelation 1:5-6 are doxologies to the Lord Jesus. Thus He is prayed to.

                  G. You also ignored this from my Post #21:
                  Returning to the command to worship the Lord Jesus with all of one's might, mind, strength and all of one's soul (cf. 2 Nephi 25:29) this is to be understood in the context of prayer:
                  Richard N. Longenecker: There is no commandment in the Jewish Scriptures that says simply "Thou shalt pray!" Rather, what one finds is a verse like Deut 11:13, which calls on Israel "to love the Lord your God and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul." The rabbis of the Talmud asked about this verse: "What kind of service is it that takes place in the heart"? And they answered their own question: "It is prayer!" (b. Ta' anith 2a). (Studies in Paul, Exegetical and Theological, page 33).
                  How then does this passage from the Book of Mormon not teach the Lord Jesus is to be prayed to? I supplied evidence that it does so please supply evidence that affirms your position.

                  H. You also ignored this from my Post #21 as well:
                  John 5:23
                  Robertson: Jesus claims here the same right to worship from men that the Father has. Dishonoring Jesus is dishonoring the Father who sent him (8:49; 12:26; 15:23; 1 John 2:23). See also Luke 10:16. There is small comfort here for those who praise Jesus as teacher and yet deny his claims to worship.
                  http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?bk=42&ch=5

                  The Father is to be prayed to in worship and the Lord Jesus is to be prayed to in worship.

                  I. Acts 7:59
                  1. Vincent: An unquestionable prayer to Christ.
                  http://www.godrules.net/library/vincent/vincentact7.htm
                  2. Danker: Just as Israel was to understand her role as one of obedience to the God who saved her, so the Christian is to see the moral and ethical implications of this recognition of Christ's claim to ownership expressed so often in such a phrase as "Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus." Out of such conviction the iron of steadfast confession was smelted. As the stones came flying at Stephen, he prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (Acts 7:59) (Creeds in the Bible, page 45, c. 1966).
                  3. Mounce: Jesus is the addressee when epikalew is used in the sense of praying (Acts 7:59) (Mounce's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Call, page 93).
                  4. And this from the LDS:
                  The stones painfully cut and bruised Stephen’s body, and he knew he was going to die. But he was not afraid, for he knew he would be with Jesus again. Courageously Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Acts 7:59.)
                  https://www.lds.org/liahona/1987/05/...artyr?lang=eng

                  Was Stephen praying to the Lord Jesus?
                  Last edited by foudroyant; 04-26-2014, 04:57 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    foudroyant--I think that it is clear that there are situations where calling upon Jesus (praying) however one wants to call it that are appropriate. The question I have is do you think Jesus really cares if people do not address their prayers to him but only to the Father? Do you think He gets offended? We know that Jesus always placed His Father ahead of himself. It would seem to me that he would desire us to do the same as well. Jesus always does the will of the Father so even if one prays to Jesus, if Jesus answers the prayer is is always in line with the will of the Father. Jesus never goes around the Father or does an under the table deal.

                    It is not that LDS believe that there are no situations ever where one should call upon Jesus in a prayer. But as a general rule, we should go to the Father in prayer. Appealing to exceptions in the scriptures does not make a rule or the norm. I think you are trying to manufacture a problem that really does not exist. Seems to me that addressing the Father in the name of Jesus Christ covers the bases. It is almost you think its ok to pray to Jesus and purposely wanting to leave the Father out of it. I am not aware of any instruction where we are to pray to Jesus in the name of the Father.
                    Last edited by carbon dioxide; 04-23-2014, 11:39 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      If as you say "there are situations where calling upon Jesus (praying) however one wants to call it that are appropriate" then is 'The Ensign' in error when it reads, "...some misguided members of the Church may 'begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed' with him. This is wrong, said Elder McConkie. We should pray directly to the Father..." (The Ensign, June 1998, page 59)?

                      In answer to your question I will point out that the Mormon Church claims to be the only true church. If they are the only true church then why are they wrong in their view of not praying to the Lord Jesus?
                      Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 1:2 teaches that all who are Christians pray to (at least once) the Lord Jesus Christ.
                      Whedon: Call upon-So that there is a mutual call; Jesus Christ calls them, and they call upon Jesus Christ. By call upon, is meant, praying to. So Stephen, in Acts 7:59; and so Acts 9:14, and Romans 10:13. This last text, in particular, shows that the phrase means prayer in its highest sense as to God, and is a very conclusive proof that the very mark of a Christian, in Paul's view, was truly praying to Christ, as that of a Jew was blaspheming him, and that of a Gentile was worshipping idols.
                      http://www.studylight.org/com/whe/view.cgi?bk=45&ch=1
                      R.T. France: It is striking first to note the 'definition' of Christians in 1 Corinthians 1:2 as 'those who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ'. Not only does the phrase itself indicate that prayer to Jesus was a normal and distinguishing characteristic of Christians in the 50's, but 'to call on the name of the Lord' is a regular OT formula for worship and prayer offered to God (Gen. 4:26, 13:4; Ps. 105:1; Jer. 10:25; Joel 2:32, etc.) ("The Worship of Jesus - A Neglected Factor In Christological Debate?", R.T. France, Vox Evangelica 12, c.1981, pages 19-33 -> The quote here appears on page 28 under 3. "The Letters of Paul").

                      I have cited plenty of passages that demonstrate that the Bible does not teach prayer to the Lord Jesus was an "exception".

                      I also pray to the Father (Acts 4:24-40; Galatians 1:5; James 3:9; etc.).
                      Last edited by foudroyant; 04-24-2014, 07:41 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                        A. So you believe that Psalm 34:15-16 refers to the Lord Jesus. Then this passage refers to the Lord Jesus being the recipient of prayer.
                        You wrote "I actually DO suspect that the Angel of the Lord's presence and Jehovah/Yahweh of the Old Testament ARE Jesus Christ pre-incarnate."
                        Then Genesis 48:16 would be another prayer to the Lord Jesus:
                        I think that the Old Testament is FULL of prayer to Jehovah/Yahweh, who is Jesus pre-incarnate. The atonement had not been performed yet, and people did not have access to the Father. Nor was it even very clear to most, in that time period, that there was a distinction between what we now know are members of the Godhead.

                        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                        B. Calling on the name of the Lord
                        If you want to make up your own definitions to what this phrase means that is your choice but I refuse to play make believe.
                        It is not a stretch to say that praying to the Father "in the name of Jesus Christ", who is usually the one referred to as "Lord", is the same as "calling on the name of the Lord". Again, I find it strange that you think we should be praying to the Lord Jesus, on the name of the Lord Jesus. Isn't that redundant? The simple formula that Christ gave is to pray to the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ.

                        I don't see why that is so difficult for you.


                        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                        C. 2 Corinthians 12:8
                        Paul appealed to the Lord Jesus and by doing so he was praying to Him.
                        The theology is more complicated than that. Again, when we pray, we appeal to the intercession through Jesus Christ to God the Father. So, in that sense, we do appeal to Jesus Christ, however, the appeal is for Christ to mediate to the Father on our behalf.

                        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                        D. Acts 1:24-25
                        1. David Peterson: It is important to observe that there are no further examples of such decision making in the NT. As those who were about to enjoy the benefits of the New Covenant, the apostles were using a practice that was sanctioned by God but belonged to the old era. It took place before Pentecost, when the Spirit was poured out in a way that signified a new kind of relationship between God and his people. From Luke's emphasis on the Spirit's role in giving wisdom, guidance, and direction, it would appear that the apostolic example on this occasion is not to be followed by Christians today (106)
                        Footnote #106: There is no basis for the claim that the apostles were wrong to select Matthias and that they should have awaited God's choice of Paul to fill the vacancy. (Pillar New Testament Commentary, Acts, page 128-129).

                        ...the selection of Matthias is even mentioned favorably according to the LDS as found here:...
                        I am not saying that the vacancy in the apostleship shouldn't have been filled. I am saying that we shouldn't use THE METHOD that they used as a guideline for how we worship, pray, or practice. Specifically, I don't see that we should be casting lots like Old Testament times in order to make decisions, and I don't see that their Old Testament style prayer method should supercede the very clear instructions given by Jesus Christ on how to pray.

                        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                        H. You also ignored this from my Post #21 as well:
                        John 5:23
                        Robertson: Jesus claims here the same right to worship from men that the Father has. Dishonoring Jesus is dishonoring the Father who sent him (8:49; 12:26; 15:23; 1 John 2:23). See also Luke 10:16. There is small comfort here for those who praise Jesus as teacher and yet deny his claims to worship.
                        I didn't ignore it. It is just so absolutely and utterly ridiculous to think that following Christ's simple instructions is equal to dishonoring him. In fact, it is pretty logical to argue that dishonoring Him consists of not doing things the way that Christ asked us to do them.

                        I also didn't ignore your citation of Revelation 1:5-6. I did all I needed to do, which was to quote the verses. That is all that any reasonable person needs in order to see that your appeal to that scripture does not help your argument. I will post the other two scriptures you mention as well, which are instructions to believers to follow the Savior and by doing so, glorify the Father and the Son.


                        2 Peter 3:18 "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

                        2 Timothy 1 - I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; ...
                        I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. 17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. 18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen

                        Revelation 1:1 ;4-6 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him ... 4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom of priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.



                        -7up
                        Last edited by seven7up; 04-25-2014, 03:12 AM. Reason: small addition

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                          In answer to your question I will point out that the Mormon Church claims to be the only true church. If they are the only true church then why are they wrong in their view of not praying to the Lord Jesus?
                          Only in Crazyland is it "wrong" to do what Jesus asked us to do, and then do it in the way that Jesus asked us to do it.

                          Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                          Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 1:2 teaches that all who are Christians pray to (at least once) the Lord Jesus Christ.
                          Wow again. Let's look at the verse:

                          1Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: 3Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

                          Now you seem to be arguing that this verse is teaching that one cannot be a Christian, unless you pray directly to Jesus. Is that the foolishness that I am getting from you now?

                          This is simply another example where the ultimate object of worship is implied and understood because it had been taught to these Christians and it is taught to us in the New Testament, including being taught by Jesus Himself. We are calling to God the Father, and everything we do is done in Christ's name. You cannot convince anybody that calling "on the name of the Lord" is contradictory to praying to God the Father "in the name of Jesus Christ". It is the same mode of worship and prayer, because the theological doctrine of Christ's mediation/intercession on our behalf is clearly understood.

                          Carbone Dioxide put this in layman's terms quite well, "Jesus always does the will of the Father so even if one prays to Jesus, if Jesus answers the prayer is is always in line with the will of the Father. Jesus never goes around the Father or does an under the table deal."

                          Thank you CarbDio. This was precisely my point when I said, "Intercede to whom? Jesus is going to respect the authority of whom? And fulfill the will of whom? Paul certainly understood that to address the Father through Christ’s name is essentially the same as calling upon Christ because it is Jesus who will enact the will of the Father. Paul clearly knew that Christ serves as the mediator between God and man (2 Tim 2:5). I don’t think Paul was describing (or prescribing) any formula for prayer which was contradictory to what Jesus explained,..."

                          LDS aren't even particularly legalistic when it comes to the wording of personal prayers. You will hear Mormons start with, "Father in Heaven .... " "Heavenly Father ..." "Eternal Father ..." etc. Then it can end with something like, "in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen." Or "on the name of thy Beloved Son..." Or, "this we ask, in Christ's name, Amen.." etc.

                          It is true that the general formula of directing the prayer to the Father is taught in the LDS church, but there is a good reason for this. Namely, when Christ was teaching how to pray, he instructed us to direct the prayer to the Father, and to do it in the name of Jesus Christ. The fact that people attempt to have take exception to this says much more about them than it says about Mormons.

                          Again, CarbonDioxide describes part of the problem here, "Appealing to exceptions in the scriptures does not make a rule or the norm. I think you are trying to manufacture a problem that really does not exist."

                          Those who want to exclude God the Father from the equation like to provide examples which include Thomas, who was in the middle of the shock and awe of being presented with the resurrected body of Christ and exclaimed, "My Lord and my God!" Or Stephen, who was in the middle of being stoned to death! Then they try to deny that these are exceptional circumstances. Incredible.

                          Off the top of my head, I can think of 4 pretty good citations which justify how LDS are taught to pray:

                          Mat 6:9 Pray, then, in this way: Our Father who is in heaven…”

                          John 15:16 “…whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”

                          John 16:23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

                          Luke 11:12 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven,


                          There you have it. Christ gives clear, unambiguous instructions about the formula for prayer. Need He say more?

                          -7up

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            1. So Psalm 34:15-16 is a prayer to the Lord Jesus but when it is cited in 1 Peter 3:12 it is not a prayer to the Lord Jesus? Strange.
                            2. 2 Corinthians 12:8 - Paul wasn't appealing through the Lord Jesus but to the Lord Jesus.
                            3. Act 1:24-25 - This prayer to the Lord Jesus took place before they cast lots. Once the Holy Spirit indwelt the Church casting lots was no longer necessary. Your point would be valid if there were no more prayers to the Lord Jesus after this event but that is not the case at all.
                            4. 2 Timothy 4:18; 2 Peter 3:18 and Revelation 1:5-6 are doxologies.
                            Vincent: Trench remarks upon the prominence of the doxological element in the highest worship of the Church as contrasted with the very subordinate place which it often occupies in ours. “We can perhaps make our requests known unto God, and this is well, for it is prayer; but to give glory to God, quite apart from anything to be directly gotten by ourselves in return, this is better, for it is adoration.”
                            http://www.studylight.org/com/vnt/view.cgi?bk=65&ch=1
                            There is NO worship that the Father receives that Christ should not receive. This accords well with John 5:23.
                            5. When Stephen was being stoned to death he prayed to the Lord Jesus is not an exceptional case. It proves that the early believers were in the habit of doing this.

                            6. You need more help with 1 Corinthians 1:2:
                            1. Danker: Citing Acts 2:21; 7:59; 9:14, 21; Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 2 Timothy 2:22: to call upon deity for any purpose to call upon, call out (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, epikalew, page 373).
                            2. NIDNTT: categorizes 1 Corinthians 1:2 epikaluew (call upon) under (#10) "General prayer" (NIDNTT 2:874, Prayer, H. Schonweiss, C. Brown).
                            3. TDNT: What is said of the kurios in the OT is said of the Kurios Iesous Christos in the NT. In some verses the object of epikaleisthai is God the Father (Ac. 2:21; 1 Pt. 1:17; and 2 C. 1:23 is almost a prayer); but in other verses it is God the Son (Ac. 7:59; 9:14, 21; 22:16; R. 10:12-14; 1 C. 1:2; 2 Tm. 2:22) (3:500, epikalew, K.L. Schmidt).
                            4. Robertson and Plummer: This goes back to Joel 2.32, and involves the thought of faith, the common bond of all. See Rom. 10.12, 13. Here, as there, St. Paul significantly brings in the worship of Christ under the O.T. formula for worship addressed to the LORD God of Israel. To be a believer is to worship Christ (A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the First Epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians, page 3).
                            5. Thayer: Citing 1 Corinthians 1:2: epikaloumai to onoma tou kuriou,
                            I call upon (on my behalf) the name of the Lord, i.e. to invoke, adore, worship, the Lord, i.e. Christ (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, epikalew, page 239).
                            6. Vincent: Call upon the name (epikaloumenoiv to onoma). Compare Romans x. 12; Acts ii. 21. The formula is from the Septuagint. See Zech. xiii. 9; Gen. xii. 8; xiii. 4; Psalm cxv. 17. It is used of worship, and here implies prayer to Christ. The first christian prayer recorded as heard by Saul of Tarsus, was Stephen's prayer to Christ, Acts vii. 59. The name of Christ occurs nine times in the first nine verses of this epistle.
                            http://www.godrules.net/library/vinc...ncent1cor1.htm
                            7. R.T. France: It is striking first to note the 'definition' of Christians in 1 Corinthians 1:2 as 'those who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ'. Not only does the phrase itself indicate that prayer to Jesus was a normal and distinguishing characteristic of Christians in the 50's, but 'to call on the name of the Lord' is a regular OT formula for worship and prayer offered to God (Gen. 4:26, 13:4; Ps. 105:1; Jer. 10:25; Joel 2:32, etc.) ("The Worship of Jesus - A Neglected Factor In Christological Debate?", Vox Evangelica 12, c.1981, pages 19-33 -> The quote here appears on page 28 under 3. "The Letters of Paul").
                            8. Spicq: "Let every tongue proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord," that is, God. Such is the object of faith profession and worship: "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." Henceforth, Christians are those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that is, who worship his divine majesty and implore his sovereign protection (Theological Lexicon of the New Testament, Lord, 2:350).
                            9. Alford: The phrase "to call upon the name of the Lord," was one adopted from the Joel 2.32; the adjunct our Lord Jesus Christ, defines that Lord (Jehovah) on whom the Christians called, to be Jesus Christ, - and is a direct testimony to the divine worship of Jesus Christ, as universal in the Church (The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians, page 136).
                            10. Easton Illustrated Bible Dictionary: To cry for help, hence to pray (Genesis 4:26 ). Thus men are said to "call upon the name of the Lord" (Acts 2:21 ; 7:59 ; 9:14 ; Romans 10:12 ; 1 Corinthians 1:2 ).
                            http://www.studylight.org/dic/ebd/view.cgi?n=694
                            11. For a detailed read see Alexander MacLaren
                            http://www.preceptaustin.org/1_corin...n_1.htm#cotn52
                            12. Stephen J. Wellum: John Stott nicely summarizes this evidence when he writes: "Nobody can call himself a Christian who does not worship Jesus. To worship him, if he is not God, is idolatry; to withhold worship from him, if he is, is apostasy." In addition to the worship and devotion Jesus receives, he is also the addressee in prayer (Acts 1:24-25; 7:59-60; 9:10, 13; 22:17-19; 1 Cor. 1:2; 16:22; 2 Cor. 12:8; Rev. 22:20) and the object of saving faith (The Deity of Christ, page 142).

                            Yeah they are all wrong but somehow your Greek expertise supersedes all of them....not.

                            Christ not only gave clear instructions concerning prayer but He FURTHER said that the Holy Spirit would guide the apostles in all truth.....and this truth includes praying to the Ascended Lord.

                            ===================>Oh and by the way....you also ignored this from Post #17, Post #21 and Post #23. I hope you are able to "see" it this time here in Post #28.
                            Returning to the command to worship the Lord Jesus with all of one's might, mind, strength and all of one's soul (cf. 2 Nephi 25:29) this is to be understood in the context of prayer:
                            Richard N. Longenecker: There is no commandment in the Jewish Scriptures that says simply "Thou shalt pray!" Rather, what one finds is a verse like Deut 11:13, which calls on Israel "to love the Lord your God and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul." The rabbis of the Talmud asked about this verse: "What kind of service is it that takes place in the heart"? And they answered their own question: "It is prayer!" (b. Ta' anith 2a). (Studies in Paul, Exegetical and Theological, page 33).
                            How then does this passage from the Book of Mormon not teach the Lord Jesus is to be prayed to? I supplied evidence that it does so please supply evidence that affirms your position.
                            Last edited by foudroyant; 04-25-2014, 09:54 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Don't forget these prayers to the Lord Jesus as well:

                              1 Thessalonians 3:11
                              Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you; so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. (1 Thessalonians 3:11-13. NASB).
                              1. Hogg and Vine: This verse is of much importance because of the doctrine of the Deity of Christ therein implied. The Epistle, it will be remembered, is one of the earliest Christian documents, and as such supplies most valuable testimony to primitive Apostolic teaching. From this verse then it is evident that the Thessalonians had been taught to think of the Lord Jesus as One with God, for: -
                              a, Prayer is addressed to the Lord Jesus cojointly with the Father. It is equally important to notice that the Lord Jesus is united with the Father in respect of His Godhead, He is distinguished from the Father in respect of His personality:
                              b, The Lord Jesus is associated with God the Father as controller of the ways of men:
                              c, the Greek verb translated "direct" is in the singular number notwithstanding that two names form its subject. Thus the simple grammatical law, that a verb must agree with its subject in number, is set aside in order that the unique relationship existing between the Persons may be indicated:
                              d, the sentence may be translated thus: But God Himself, even our Father and our Lord Jesus, direct our way unto you.
                              (Galatians and Thessalonians, page 103).
                              2. Robertson: Our God and Father himself (αυτος ο τεος και πατηρ ημων — autos ho theos kai patēr hēmōn). Note one article with both substantives for one person.
                              And our Lord Jesus (και ο Κυριος ημων Ιησους — kai ho Kurios hēmōn Iēsous). Separate article here with Ιησους — Iēsous In Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1 only one article (not two) treating “our God and Saviour Jesus Christ” as one just like “our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” in 2 Peter 1:11; 2 Peter 2:20; 2 Peter 3:18.
                              Direct our way (κατευτυναι την οδον ημων — kateuthunai tēn hodon hēmōn). First aorist optative (acute accent on penult, not circumflex first aorist active infinitive) of κατευτυνω — kateuthunō old verb to make straight path. Singular verb also, though both God and Christ mentioned as subject (unity in the Godhead). Apart from μη γενοιτο — mē genoito (may it not come to pass) the optative in a wish of the third person is found in N.T. only in 1 Thessalonians 3:11, 1 Thessalonians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:17; 2 Thessalonians 3:5, 2 Thessalonians 3:16; Romans 15:5, Romans 15:13.
                              On verse 12: The Lord (ο Κυριος — ho Kurios). The Lord Jesus. Paul prays to Christ.
                              http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?bk=51&ch=3
                              3. Gordon Fee: The present prayer is certain evidence that what Paul says in this next letter is already well in place by the time he writes these earlier letters to the Thessalonian believers. That he does this in such a matter-of-fact way, and without explanation or argumentation, is at the same time sure evidence that he must have previously instructed them not only on the saving work of Christ, but also on who the divine Saviour actually was. So while the opening prayer (v.11) is directed primarily to God the Father, as the emphatic "himself" makes clear, the remarkable inclusion of the Son as the compound subject of the singular verb seems to exist in anticipation of the rest of the prayer, which is directed solely to Christ.
                              Two further matters need to be noted, both christological. First, one should observe (a) that Paul can pray to both God the Father and the Lord Jesus together as one (v.11), (b) that he can pray to both together but single out one as the object (grammatical subject) of the concerns of prayer at a given time (vv. 12-13), and (c) that in these earliest two letters he can pray to either separately (for the Father see 1 Thess 1:2-3; 5:23; for Christ see 2 Thess 3:5 and 16).
                              Second, even though the first emphasis in this case is on God the Father, the final focus of the prayer is altogether on the Lord Jesus, which makes the singular verb and compound subject in verse 11 seem to be more than Paul's simply taking over "conventional liturgical language to which [he] and his readers were accustomed." (15) Indeed, this same phenomenon happens in reverse in 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17, where Christ is mentioned first (including with the quotes [himself"]) while the pickup, exactly as in the present case, is with prayer addressed to the second divine person mentioned at the outset, namely God the Father. So one simply cannot be dismissive about the role of Christ in the present prayer. Here is a strict monotheist praying with ease to both the Father and the Son, focusing first on the one and then the other, and without a sense that his monotheism is being stretched or is in some kind of danger (The First and Second Letters to the Thessalonians, page 130-131).
                              4. George Findlay: The association of “our Lord Jesus” with “God the Father” in acts of prayer and thanksgiving is a very noticeable feature of these two Letters; it affords impressive evidence, coming from the oldest N.T. writings, of the deity of Jesus Christ as this was conceived by the first Christians; the two are so identified that they count as one (cf. the words of Jesus in John 10:30, ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν), blending in the singular optative predicate, κατευθύναι: see also 2 Thessalonians 2:16 f., and note. The petition of 1 Thessalonians 3:12 is addressed to “the Lord” solely. (Cambridge Greek Testament for School's and Colleges)
                              http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=51&ch=3

                              2 Thessalonians 2:16-17
                              Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17, NASB).
                              1. Hogg and Vine: For the inference as to the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ see note on "direct" at 3:11 (Galatians and Thessalonians, page 279).
                              2. Barnes: Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself - This expression is equivalent to this: “I pray our Lord Jesus, and our Father, to comfort you.” It is really a prayer offered to the Saviour - a recognition of Christ as the source of consolation as well as the Father, and a union of his name with that of the Father in invoking important blessings. It is such language as could be used only by one who regarded the Lord Jesus as divine.
                              And God even our Father - Greek: “And God, and ( και kai) our Father;” though not incorrectly rendered “even our Father.” If it should be contended that the use of the word “and” - “our Lord Jesus Christ, and God,” proves that the Lord Jesus is a different being from God - the use of the same word “and” would prove that the “Father” is a different being from God. But the truth is, the apostle meant to speak of the Father and the Son as the common Source of the blessing for which he prayed.
                              http://www.studylight.org/com/bnb/view.cgi?bk=52&ch=2

                              2 Thessalonians 3:16
                              Now may the Lord of peace Himself continually grant you peace in every circumstance. The Lord be with you all! (2 Thessalonians 3:16, NASB)
                              1. NIDNTT: Concerning Jesus: He is the kyrios of peace and gives peace (2 Thess. 3:16), mercy (2 Tim. 1:16), and insight (2 Tim. 2:7) (2:517, Lord, H. Bietenhard).
                              2. NIDNTT: 1 Thess. 3:10-13; 2 Thess 2:16 and 2 Thess. 3:16 are listed under "Intercessory prayer for others, including blessings and cursings" (2:874, Prayer, H. Schonweiss, C, Brown).
                              3. Hogg and Vine: as the title "God of peace" refers to the Father, so "Lord of peace" is best understood of the Son. (Galatians and Thessalonians, page 292)
                              4. Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown: Lord of peace — Jesus Christ. The same title is given to Him as to the Father, “the God of peace” (Romans 15:33; Romans 16:20; 2 Corinthians 13:11). An appropriate title in the prayer here, where the harmony of the Christian community was liable to interruption from the “disorderly.” The Greek article requires the translation, “Give you the peace” which it is “His to give.” “Peace” outward and inward, here and hereafter (Romans 14:17). always — unbroken, not changing with outward circumstances.
                              by all means — Greek, “in every way.” Most of the oldest manuscripts read, “in every place”; thus he prays for their peace in all times (“always”) and places.
                              Lord be with you all — May He bless you not only with peace, but also with His presence (Matthew 28:20). Even the disorderly brethren (compare 2 Thessalonians 3:15, “a brother”) are included in this prayer.
                              http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?bk=52&ch=3
                              5. George Findlay: “The Lord of peace” is surely Christ, as in the whole context (see note on κύριος, 2 Thessalonians 3:1 above), and regularly with St Paul. The previous context—2 Thessalonians 3:14 especially—suggests this prayer; the “peace” desired has reference to the Church troubles of the hour. (Cambridge Greek Testament for School's and Colleges)
                              http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=52&ch=3
                              Last edited by foudroyant; 04-25-2014, 08:59 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                                1. So Psalm 34:15-16 is a prayer to the Lord Jesus but when it is cited in 1 Peter 3:12 it is not a prayer to the Lord Jesus? Strange.
                                No. Neither example is a prayer. While the Psalm praises the Lord, it is addressed to a broader audience. The psalmist is not praying directly to God; the psalmist is teaching and preaching:

                                11 Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the Lord.
                                12 What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good?
                                13 Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.
                                14 Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.
                                15 The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.


                                Then Peter cited the psalm in order to teach and preach the same thing; namely that the Lord will protect the righteous, therefore believers should not "fear those who do evil".

                                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                                2. 2 Corinthians 12:8 - Paul wasn't appealing through the Lord Jesus but to the Lord Jesus.
                                Paul was explaining to the Corinthians that he "besought the Lord thrice" , but you don't know the exact wording of the prayer. He doesn't say how the prayer was directed. For all you know, the prayer was worded, "Father in Heaven, I ask thee to send the Savior to come to me and heal me of my infirmities, for I know that the Son of God has power to heal. I ask this in His name, Jesus Christ, Amen." I don't know the exact words he used either, but my point is that you are making assumptions. Another point I gave is this: while "Lord" often refers specifically to Jesus, we also find in scripture that it can refer to the Father, or even just "God" in a general sense.

                                So, we conclude again that you are making too many assumptions and leaping to baseless conclusions, foudroyant, and based on those assumptions you are teaching to do things in a way contrary to the specific way in which Jesus Christ taught. I don't think that it is wise of you.

                                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                                3. Act 1:24-25 - This prayer to the Lord Jesus took place before they cast lots.
                                This was an Old Testament type prayer associated with an Old Testament type practice. As I already explained, "the Lord" in the Old Testament was referring to "God", and they may not have had the clarity or had not yet developed the habit concerning addressing the distinct members of the Godhead that was provided to believers in the New Testament church. Based on the Old Testament style non-distinct wording, they asked "the Lord" to direct the results of the lots that they were about to cast. Again, this is hardly an example of how we, as believers, should worship or practice.

                                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                                4. 2 Timothy 4:18; 2 Peter 3:18 and Revelation 1:5-6 are doxologies.
                                Vincent: Trench remarks upon the prominence of the doxological element in the highest worship of the Church ...
                                I don't have to do anything more in order to make my point on these verses. All I have to do is post the verses, and it becomes apparent that this is not the same as "prayer" in the way that Jesus described it. You are describing a different aspect of worship. Here it is again, and I rest my case.

                                2 Peter 3:18 "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

                                2 Timothy 1 - I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; ...
                                I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. 17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. 18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen

                                Revelation 1:1 ;4-6 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him ... 4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom of priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.


                                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                                There is NO worship that the Father receives that Christ should not receive. This accords well with John 5:23.
                                So, should I worship God the Father because He Himself suffered for my sins on the cross in order to be my Savior? Are you a modalist? John 5:23 does not say that we should erase the distinctions between members of the Godhead.

                                If God the Father teaches me to do something, then I will honor Him by doing it in the way that He taught. Likewise, if Jesus teaches me to pray in a certain way, then I will honor Jesus by following those instructions.

                                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                                5. When Stephen was being stoned to death he prayed to the Lord Jesus is not an exceptional case.
                                I think it is just as exceptional as the Nephites who were standing in the presence of the resurrected Christ. Stephen had a vision of the Son of Man, and was looking at Jesus in vision as he died.

                                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                                It proves that the early believers were in the habit of doing this.
                                No, it does not prove that it was a habit at all. And even if it were a habit, it is a baseless assumption to think that it is the correct way of doing things.

                                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                                6. You need more help with 1 Corinthians 1:2:
                                I will post it here:

                                1 Corinthians 1:2-4 - To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ--their Lord and ours: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus.

                                When we "call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" , we are are accepting the atoning work of Jesus Christ for our sins in that act of grace, and we are recognizing Christ as our LORD, which means that we will follow His teachings. When we gather "in the name of Jesus Christ", it means that we are going to learn about His character, His Being, and His life, death, resurrection and exaltation; we are going to emulate Him and follow Him. It means that we give unto the Lord the glory due unto his name: 1 Chr. 16:29 . ( Ps. 29:2 ; Ps. 96:8.) If you are going to assert that the LDS Church is not a Christ centered religious institution, then you know nothing about us. Article of Faith "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ." Nevertheless, all of this kind of worship of Jesus, reverence towards Him, praising of Him, teaching about His life, are certain aspects of worship. Prayer is also an aspect of worship, and Jesus taught us to pray to the Father. Yet even when we pray to the Father in worship, we are worshiping Jesus as well, because we are doing it "on the the name of Jesus", which includes all of the concepts above.

                                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                                12. Stephen J. Wellum: John Stott nicely summarizes this evidence when he writes: "Nobody can call himself a Christian who does not worship Jesus. To worship him, if he is not God, is idolatry; to withhold worship from him, if he is, is apostasy."
                                As I said, LDS worship Jesus Christ. However, we caution against any attempt to circumvent or alter our relationship with Deity by the exclusion of or down playing the other members of the Godhead.

                                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                                Christ not only gave clear instructions concerning prayer but He FURTHER said that the Holy Spirit would guide the apostles in all truth.....and this truth includes praying to the Ascended Lord.
                                As I said, none of the examples you have provided give very good grounds for what you are trying to preach here. Certainly none of the scriptures you cite are enough to supersede Christ's very, very , very clear instructions concerning prayer.

                                Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                                ..you also ignored this from Post #17, Post #21 and Post #23. I hope you are able to "see" it this time here in Post #28.
                                Returning to the command to worship the Lord Jesus with all of one's might, mind, strength and all of one's soul (cf. 2 Nephi 25:29) this is to be understood in the context of prayer
                                There is not enough time in the day to refute every single fallacy that you promote. But since you insist, I will address it quickly. And to make it interesting, I will quote again, of all people, Bruce R. McConkie: "The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship. … No one can worship the Father without also worshiping the Son. … It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son. ‘Believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.’ (2 Ne 25:16, 29)"

                                The idea of directing our prayers to Heavenly Father does not mean that aren't worshiping Jesus Christ. Even McConkie taught that there are a variety of ways in which we must approach Jesus. And by definition, many fall under the concept of worship. Simply included in the discourse of his that you quoted previously he brings up, in reference to Jesus, worship in the following ways:

                                Awe
                                Reverence
                                Gratitude
                                Love
                                Service
                                Fellowship
                                Revealer and manifester of God the Father
                                The way to the Father
                                Praise his holy name
                                Ascribe unto Him honor, power, glory, might, and dominion
                                Treat Him as Lord, God, and King
                                Worshipful adoration

                                McConkie even said specifically of Jesus in that talk, "We do not have a fraction of the power we need to properly praise his holy name and ascribe unto him the honor and power and might and glory and dominion that is his. He is our Lord, our God, and our King."


                                -7up

                                P.S. Would you consider that last quote by McConkie a "doxology"?

                                Doxology (noun) : a usually liturgical expression of praise to God
                                Last edited by seven7up; 04-26-2014, 01:10 AM. Reason: P.S.

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