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JWs coming to visit

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  • JWs coming to visit

    A couple JWs stopped by my house this last Saturday, and they said they'll be back Thursday morning. Their opening tack was about the purpose of Biblical prophecy, but we ended up focusing on the Eucharist. I'm in no sense afraid of them, but I'm more than a bit rusty with respect to apologetics, and I'm wondering what thoughts or tips y'all might have.
    Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
    A couple JWs stopped by my house this last Saturday, and they said they'll be back Thursday morning. Their opening tack was about the purpose of Biblical prophecy, but we ended up focusing on the Eucharist. I'm in no sense afraid of them, but I'm more than a bit rusty with respect to apologetics, and I'm wondering what thoughts or tips y'all might have.
    Curious, did they or did you bring up the issue of the Eucharist?

    Are you familiar with Catholic Answers? [Catholic.com.]
    If I was of the Catholic Faith would use them as a resource.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Curious, did they or did you bring up the issue of the Eucharist?

      Are you familiar with Catholic Answers? [Catholic.com.]
      If I was of the Catholic Faith would use them as a resource.
      I brought it up; off-hand, I could recall more stuff about the Eucharist than any other potential topic.

      Catholic Answers is where I got my start in apologetics. I was planning to look at their stuff to refresh my memory, but i was also wondering if anyone here had any other thoughts or tips.
      Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

      Comment


      • #4
        Two major errors to note regarding the Watchtower teachings. Of course the deity of Christ, and the bodily resurrection. That the resurrected Jesus is now an immortal man (see 1 Timothy 2:5). I would also note that this man Jesus is our sole access to God (John 14:6).
        . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
          A couple JWs stopped by my house this last Saturday, and they said they'll be back Thursday morning. Their opening tack was about the purpose of Biblical prophecy, but we ended up focusing on the Eucharist. I'm in no sense afraid of them, but I'm more than a bit rusty with respect to apologetics, and I'm wondering what thoughts or tips y'all might have.
          There are many good threads started by foudroyant in this section. He cites great scholars, and I personally found the citations effective in my dialogue with various JW's.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
            A couple JWs stopped by my house this last Saturday, and they said they'll be back Thursday morning. Their opening tack was about the purpose of Biblical prophecy, but we ended up focusing on the Eucharist. I'm in no sense afraid of them, but I'm more than a bit rusty with respect to apologetics, and I'm wondering what thoughts or tips y'all might have.
            I just noticed your post, but if it isn't too late...

            Next time they come suggest to them that you'd really like to acquire a copy of "Reasoning from the Scriptures". I had a copy but can't find it!. It was/is a little book they used/use to prepare topics before they go door knocking, or if they are a newbie, draw upon to answer questions that stump them. They may avoid meeting your request. No problem the WB&TS have something of an online version. It is a great little book that is generally useful. Keep in mind that JWs do teach a central Christian message but they do have some ideas not held by most Christians or rejected by mainstream Christianity.

            One word of warning: Don't waste energy or time trying to prove Jesus is God the Son from the typical evangelical list of scriptures...

            Except for 2 Peter 1:1 there isn't a single scripture that isn't disputed grammatically by the experts in Koine Greek. 2 Peter 1:1 is disputed textually. A smart JW will just point you to the KJV and/or the ASV (the seminarian bible) where the rendering distinguishes between God and the Savior. Then they'd have you read vs2 which without question distinguishes between God and Jesus our Lord. Then they will point out that repetatively 2 Peter refers to Jesus as "our/the Lord and Saviour" 2 Peter 1:11; 2:20; 3:2,18. 2 Peter without dispute distinguishes between God and Jesus at 2 Peter 1:2,16-17 (disputedly at 2 Peter 1:1). Without dispute 1 Peter repetatively distinguishes between God and Jesus at 1 Peter 1:2,3,21; 2:5; 3:18,21-22; 4:11,14; 5:10. As with A.Paul's epistles, 1 Peter uses "God" exclusively of the Father of Jesus Christ.

            John 1:1c & John 8:40 with Genesis 18 and John 1:18 have the most potential. JWs acknowledge that "the angel of Jehovah" that appeared to Moses was the preincarnate Jesus, but Genesis 18 has Jehovah himself supping with Abraham. Given "no man has seen God at anytime" who did Abraham chat with? Refer to John 8:40.

            Concerning John 1:1c, JWs use to have an elaborate argument against Colwell's rule which is now redundant. The typical rendering of John 1:1c "the Word was God" is disputed by most grammarians as it doesn't fit the Greek (Harner proved this conclusively. Wallace, Mantey etc concured). Most modern grammarians hold that John 1:1c is qualitative and the NEB gives the best understanding "what God was the Word was". This fits with the testimony of the gospel at John 12:45; 14:9. If you can get your visitors to acknowledge this fact then you have a lead in to discussing the consubstantiality (homoousios) of the Son with the Father. You won't get them to accept the Trinity at this stage but Binitarianism is almost there ;-)

            __________

            My ex-wife was a fanatical JW, so I had to tolerate her persecution of me and my RCC ideas for a good 18 years (the elders and others in her congregation were great to me! I really liked most of them). I haven't had much (anything) to do with them since the early 1990s, and as I now live in what is increasingly a Muslim area I rarely see them (they sold their local hall), but from the last visit I had a couple of years ago, nothing much has changed in their beliefs in the last twenty five or so years...
            Last edited by apostoli; 09-16-2015, 09:41 AM.

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            • #7
              Did they come back? Any updates?
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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              • #8
                [QUOTE=37818;242487] That the resurrected Jesus is now an immortal man (see 1 Timothy 2:5).

                That is so not true!!!
                BU

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                • #9
                  [QUOTE=Bibleuser;501117]
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  That the resurrected Jesus is now an immortal man (see 1 Timothy 2:5).

                  That is so not true!!!
                  BU
                  Quick refresher. Don't JWs deny that Jesus was God? So, couldn't you still consider Him an immortal man? Or does soul sleep not count as immortality? Do you also deny the Resurrection?
                  If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    [QUOTE=Christianbookworm;501231]
                    Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post

                    Quick refresher. Don't JWs deny that Jesus was God? So, couldn't you still consider Him an immortal man? Or does soul sleep not count as immortality? Do you also deny the Resurrection?
                    Soul sleep refers to the intermediate state, so one's view on that doesn't really affect what one believes about actual immortality.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      That the resurrected Jesus is now an immortal man (see 1 Timothy 2:5).
                      That is so not true!!!
                      BU
                      What is not true? That Jesus is now a man (1 Timothy 2:5, ". . . the man Jesus Christ; . . ."). Or that He was raised immortal (1 Corinthians 15:53, ". . . this mortal must put on immortality. . . ." Luke 24:39, ". . . Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me, . . .").
                      . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        What is not true? That Jesus is now a man (1 Timothy 2:5, ". . . the man Jesus Christ; . . ."). Or that He was raised immortal (1 Corinthians 15:53, ". . . this mortal must put on immortality. . . ." Luke 24:39, ". . . Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me, . . .").
                        JWs believe that Jesus was resurrected spiritually, and his body preserved mystically somewhere/somehow.
                        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Isn't a spiritual resurrection a contradiction? Like having a square circle.
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                            Isn't a spiritual resurrection a contradiction? Like having a square circle.
                            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                              JWs believe that Jesus was resurrected spiritually, and his body preserved mystically somewhere/somehow.
                              A man is flesh and bone. In which is how Jesus did appear (Luke 24:39). BU said what I has wrote in post #4 is not true. I wanted him to clarify. Jesus being now a man (1 Timothy 2:5) or my statment that He is now immortal being a man (Hebrews 13:8).. Or both things.

                              BU cited,
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              That the resurrected Jesus is now an immortal man (see 1 Timothy 2:5).
                              And remarked,
                              Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                              That is so not true!!!
                              BU
                              Last edited by 37818; 12-21-2017, 06:51 PM.
                              . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                              Comment

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