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The Omnipotence and Omniscience of Jesus

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  • foudroyant
    replied
    Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
    Are there anytimes when the greek word is used in connection with Yeshu Christos.
    Never specifically but by implication. (Some claim Revelation 1:8 refers to the Lord Jesus but I am not [yet?] convinced).
    Last edited by foudroyant; 06-15-2014, 05:21 AM.

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  • apostoli
    replied
    Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
    So you would prefer definitions in BAGD, even if they were crap. Thayer's was far ahead of its time.
    Imo, Thayer's renditions are a good starter for a novice. Even in his lifetime discoveries were made that contradicted prior propositions and since that time more manuscript discoveries of everyday life in ancient times have enhanced our understanding of the meaning of words in the ancient languages. I like to emphasize the commonality of teaching of John 1:1 with the general Jewish Aramaic language of the first century AD. Every Jew in the first century (as well as those prior to and after) who attended synagogue would have been familiar with the Aramaic Targums commonly preached to explain the reading of the Hebrew reading of the Torah (which apart from an elite no one understood) concerning the Memra of YHWH (the Word of God=the messenger of God=the angel of the Lord).
    Last edited by apostoli; 06-15-2014, 02:02 AM.

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  • apostoli
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    Critics don't trump what Thayer wrote in his lexicon.
    It is a great pity you have no comprehension concerning Thayer. Historically, despite his personal opinion he is reputed to be a great grammarian of the Greek, to the extent that he is reported as often supporting translations of texts that undermined his own position. Imo, for this alone he should be acclaimed. But still, it is commonly reported, he to the end of his life rejected the orthodox position. As with Philo, Thayer seems to have accepted that the Son was another God, but not God properly so called.

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  • Omniskeptical
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    As you are in error concerning the omnipotence of God so too you are in error concerning His omniscience.

    Concerning παντοκράτωρ
    a. NIDNTT: The term pantokratwr, the Almighty, the Lord of all, occurs both in connexion with OT quotations (2 Cor. 6:18; cf. Hos. 1:10; Isa. 43:6) and independently (Rev. 1:8; 4:8; 11:17; 15:3; 16:7, 14; 19:6, 15; 21:22). In both cases the title serves to describe the immense greatness of God. He has power over all men and all things (3:718, Strength, G. Braumann).
    b. Danker: Almighty, All-Powerful, Omnipotent (One) (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, pantokratwr, page 755).
    c. TDNT: His omnipotence, in which Christ shares as kurios (1 C. 8:6; Col. 1:16; Mt. 28:18), extends over the whole world, over heaven and earth (1:679, gee, Sasse).
    d. Louw/Nida: (a title for God, literally 'all powerful') - 'the Almighty, the One who has all power' (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains, 12.7, pantokratwr, page 139).
    e. Mounce: pantokratwr is a compound of the two Greek words meaning "all" and "power"-thus either "the Almighty" or "the all-powerful One" (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Almighty, page 15).
    f. Thayer: he holds sway over all things; the ruler of all; almighty (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, pantokratwr, page 476).


    So much for the God's omnipotence not being a demonstrable fact.
    -------------------------------
    Concerning knowing someone's heart your example doesn't even come close. God knows the TOTALITY of the hearts of ALL people.

    Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all (Psalm 139:4, NASB).
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is too high, I cannot attain to it (Psalm 139:6, NASB).

    Can you supply the name of any person who is able to attain this knowledge that David couldn't attain (Psalm 139:4, 6)?
    Are there anytimes when the greek word is used in connection with Yeshu Christos.

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  • Omniskeptical
    replied
    Thayer's understanding has been proved to be of little relevance
    So you would prefer definitions in BAGD, even if they were crap. Thayer's was far ahead of its time.

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  • foudroyant
    replied
    Critics don't trump what Thayer wrote in his lexicon.

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  • apostoli
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    Another assertion without proof. You still haven't proved your assertion that Thayer was a Unitarian (Post #35). At best it's inconclusive (Post #44).
    And yet the public record and all Thayer's trinitarian critics refute your stance! (ie: the majority scholarly and informed opinion simply consider you in denial). As I suggested to RBerman, it doesn't matter what Thayer's opinion was, as his Lexicon is now considered redundant (ie: As manuscript discoveries (secular and otherwise) of modern times have enlightened our understanding of the dead languages, Thayer's understanding has been proved to be of little relevance).

    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    I don't feel compelled to respond to questions coming from an individual who doesn't have a clue as to how to properly cite his sources (Post #37 and #49). In addition to that when so much counter evidence gets ignored this lets me know that they are simply cuckoo and not worth responding to.
    An interesting diversion which tells a lot. So you inadvertently admit you reject the testimony of Jesus Christ, the apostle Paul and the consensus of the Christian churches as admitted at the council of Nicea nearly 2000 years ago and has been supported ever since?
    Last edited by apostoli; 06-14-2014, 11:36 PM.

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  • foudroyant
    replied
    Another assertion without proof. You still haven't proved your assertion that Thayer was a Unitarian (Post #35). At best it's inconclusive (Post #44).

    I don't feel compelled to respond to questions coming from an individual who doesn't have a clue as to how to properly cite his sources (Post #37 and #49). In addition to that when so much counter evidence gets ignored this lets me know that they are simply cuckoo and not worth responding to.
    Last edited by foudroyant; 06-14-2014, 06:24 PM.

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  • apostoli
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    Citation please.
    Could do!!! But I'll let you get off your lazy ignorant butt and find it for yourself. It is a famous quote and one you should be able to find in a quick moment in your obvious aptitude in using Google,

    ps:

    Nice try at diversion...answer the following question I proposed earlier...

    For a reality check (to see if you are actually a christian) read the Nicene Creed and see if you agree with it. If you disagree that (as christians) we believe in One God=Father and one Lord who is homoousios with the Father (=the Son, Jesus Christ), then we will all know where you stand!!! So what is your opinion?
    Last edited by apostoli; 06-14-2014, 05:57 PM.

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  • foudroyant
    replied
    Citation please.

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  • apostoli
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    You make an assertion about what Thayer believed but when asked to offer evidence you cite what someone else said about him while I cited what he actually wrote!

    Time for you to start growing a brain......at least one that can work.
    Thayer once wrote that "The Logos was divine, not the divine Being himself", which puts you in a hole!!! Thayer may have had a similiar opinion to the Jewish philosopher/politician/Scribe Philo or for that matter the ancient Christian fathers Esuebuis,N, Eusibius,C, Novation, Athanasius, Basil the Great, the Gregories or any of the Nicene church fathers... you might start to grow a brain....at least one that can start to work. Might help you to start by reading Basil the Great and the Gregories who formulated much of the paradigm that the "modern" doctrine of the trinity is based on...

    For a reality check (to see if you are actually a christian) read the Nicene Creed and see if you agree with it. If you disagree that (as christians) we believe in One God=Father and one Lord who is homoousios with the Father (=the Son, Jesus Christ), then we will all know where you stand!!!
    Last edited by apostoli; 06-14-2014, 05:53 PM.

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  • foudroyant
    replied
    You make an assertion about what Thayer believed but when asked to offer evidence you cite what someone else said about him while I cited what he actually wrote!

    Time for you to start growing a brain......at least one that can work.
    Last edited by foudroyant; 05-29-2014, 06:39 PM.

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  • apostoli
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    That adequately sums up the proof that you have that Thayer was a Unitarian.

    Oh his publisher said so which means that must make it true. You have zero citations from Thayer himself.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hearsay?s=t

    You asserted that he was a Unitarian but like I wrote earlier you have ZERO hard core evidence.


    In fact, when I read Thayer's Lexicon I see:

    1. Matthew 28:18 Thayer: the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed, [generally translated authority]); a. univ.: Mt. 28:18 (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, exousia, page 225).
    Christ has all-power. He is omnipotent which is the same thing as being "Almighty".

    2. Ephesians 4:10: Christ, exalted to share in the divine administration, is said to fill (pervade) the universe with his presence, power, activity, Eph. 4:10 (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, plerow, page 518).
    Christ is able to fill the universe with his power ->See #1.

    3. Colossians 2:9: the state of being God (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, theotes, page 288).
    Clear enough?

    4. Revelation 5:12: supreme intelligence, such as belongs to God: Rev. 7:12, also to Christ, exalted to God's right hand, Rev. 5:12 (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, sophia, page 582).
    Christ has "supreme" intelligence. You can look up "supreme" if you don't know what it means.

    5. Revelation 19:16: kurios kuriwn i.e. Supreme Lord. (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, kurios, page 366).
    See the second sentence from my comments in #4 to help you out.
    To correctly quote myself (as opposed to your fabrication) "I don't know whether you are illiterate, intellectually challenged or a complete moron". On the evidence of your post/s, I've decided you are, to a major extent, all three!!! (although I presume you have some minor grasp in English comprehension).

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  • foudroyant
    replied
    Originally posted by apostoli View Post
    I don't know
    That adequately sums up the proof that you have that Thayer was a Unitarian.

    Oh his publisher said so which means that must make it true. You have zero citations from Thayer himself.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hearsay?s=t

    You asserted that he was a Unitarian but like I wrote earlier you have ZERO hard core evidence.


    In fact, when I read Thayer's Lexicon I see:

    1. Matthew 28:18 Thayer: the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed, [generally translated authority]); a. univ.: Mt. 28:18 (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, exousia, page 225).
    Christ has all-power. He is omnipotent which is the same thing as being "Almighty".

    2. Ephesians 4:10: Christ, exalted to share in the divine administration, is said to fill (pervade) the universe with his presence, power, activity, Eph. 4:10 (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, plerow, page 518).
    Christ is able to fill the universe with his power ->See #1.

    3. Colossians 2:9: the state of being God (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, theotes, page 288).
    Clear enough?

    4. Revelation 5:12: supreme intelligence, such as belongs to God: Rev. 7:12, also to Christ, exalted to God's right hand, Rev. 5:12 (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, sophia, page 582).
    Christ has "supreme" intelligence. You can look up "supreme" if you don't know what it means.

    5. Revelation 19:16: kurios kuriwn i.e. Supreme Lord. (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, kurios, page 366).
    See the second sentence from my comments in #4 to help you out.
    Last edited by foudroyant; 03-30-2014, 09:25 AM.

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  • apostoli
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    Zero hard core evidence that Thayer was a Unitarian.
    I don't know whether you are illiterate, intellectually challnged or a complete moron. Thayer's publisher warned in the introductory notes to Thayer's Lexicon that Thayer was a Unitarian! Also, that he rejected the doctrine of the Trinity and numerous other orthodox doctrines is well attested by both his friends and foes...

    As I remarked to RBerman, it doesn't really matter as Thayer's lexicon has long been considered redundant...

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