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Paul: The Worship of the Lord Jesus

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  • tabibito
    replied
    I'll accept the OT record as valid and correct unless proven otherwise, and that people who declared that they had seen God knew what they were talking about (with the same caveat). So yes - Jake met God, but in the seeming of a man, and no mention of an actual name.

    Leave a comment:


  • JonathanL
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    I stand corrected. (yet again)


    I mean, if you believe like I do that the Angel of the LORD in the OT is, at least in some cases, God the Son in pre-incarnate form you could make the case that Jacob wrestled with the Angel of the LORD/the Son, but that's still not the same as person as Michael.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
    I think you're making some kind of unstated assumption here, because I don't see it. Jacob wrestles with a man who he afterwards identifies with God, but I don't see where the any connection is made between that man/God and the archangel Michael.
    I stand corrected. (yet again)

    Leave a comment:


  • JonathanL
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    That's just weird. OT identifies the archangel Michael as God himself. Gen 32: 24-30
    I think you're making some kind of unstated assumption here, because I don't see it. Jacob wrestles with a man who he afterwards identifies with God, but I don't see where the any connection is made between that man/God and the archangel Michael.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    JWs see Jesus as a sort of demigod. He is/was the incarnation of the angel Michael. After His death he went back to being an angel and his human body was put into eternal storage so it would never decay, as scripture describes.
    That's just weird. OT identifies the archangel Michael as God himself. Gen 32: 24-30

    Leave a comment:


  • Jedidiah
    replied
    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Jesus didn't exactly keep His divine identity a secret. Remember that passage where Jesus treats a life threatening storm at sea as a minor inconvenience by telling it to be still and it ceases? The disciples realized that Jesus had to be divine due to onlly God doing something like that in the Old Testament.
    JWs see Jesus as a sort of demigod. He is/was the incarnation of the angel Michael. After His death he went back to being an angel and his human body was put into eternal storage so it would never decay, as scripture describes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christianbookworm
    replied
    Jesus didn't exactly keep His divine identity a secret. Remember that passage where Jesus treats a life threatening storm at sea as a minor inconvenience by telling it to be still and it ceases? The disciples realized that Jesus had to be divine due to onlly God doing something like that in the Old Testament.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
    TO WORSHIP JESUS AS GOD IS TO WORSHIP AN “ICON”!

    A visit to almost any place of worship will reveal how many religious people have elevated creatures (humans or otherwise) above the Creator. How so? By their image and icon veneration and their worship rendered to Saints, Madonnas, Crosses, some with and images of Jesus. (See Psalm 115:2-8; 2 Corinthians 5:7; 1 John 5:21).



    The PAUL states of Jesus Christ at 2 Cor. 4:4:

    “… that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image (Gk.“eikon”) of God, might not shine through.”



    Colossians 1:15 He is the image (Gk.“eikon”) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;


    “icon n. (also ikon) 1 painting of Christ etc., esp. in the Eastern Church. 2 image or statue. 3 symbol on a VDU screen of a program, option, or window, esp. for selection. iconic adj. [Greek eikon image].”-Oxford Dictionary

    “image —n. 1 representation of an object, e.g. a statue. 2 reputation or persona of a person, company, etc. 3 appearance as seen in a mirror or through a lens. 4 mental picture or idea. 5 simile or metaphor. —v. (-ging) 1 make an image of; portray. 2 reflect, mirror. 3 describe or imagine vividly. be the image of be or look exactly like. [Latin imago imagin-].”-Oxford Dictionary


    WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT IMAGE OR ICON WORSHIP!

    Exodus 20:4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth.

    Deut 27:15 “‘Cursed is the man who makes a carved image or a molten statue, a thing detestable to Jehovah, the manufacture of the hands of a wood-and-metal worker, and who has put it in a hiding place.’

    Isa. 42:8 “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.



    The Point! If humans worship Jesus Christ then they worship an “image” (Gk. eikon) a “representation” a “copy” etc. which is idolatry:-

    1 John 5:21 “Little children, guard yourselves from idols.”


    BU
    Hebrews 1: 5 For to which of the angels did God2 ever say, “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”? 6 And again, when he brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

    So then - God commands that the angels commit idolatry? I find that kind of hard to believe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bibleuser
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    A. The Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Lord Jesus is not God and so therefore should never be worshiped.
    1. Reverent adoration should be expressed only to God. To render worship to anyone or anything else would be a form of idolatry...True Christians do well to direct their worship only to Jehovah God, the Almighty (Awake! April 8, 2000, page 26+27). Since "every prayer is a form of worship" (The Watchtower, December 15, 1994, page 23) this would mean that praying to the Lord Jesus is not allowed.

    TO WORSHIP JESUS AS GOD IS TO WORSHIP AN “ICON”!

    A visit to almost any place of worship will reveal how many religious people have elevated creatures (humans or otherwise) above the Creator. How so? By their image and icon veneration and their worship rendered to Saints, Madonnas, Crosses, some with and images of Jesus. (See Psalm 115:2-8; 2 Corinthians 5:7; 1 John 5:21).



    The PAUL states of Jesus Christ at 2 Cor. 4:4:

    “… that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image (Gk.“eikon”) of God, might not shine through.”



    Colossians 1:15 He is the image (Gk.“eikon”) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;


    “icon n. (also ikon) 1 painting of Christ etc., esp. in the Eastern Church. 2 image or statue. 3 symbol on a VDU screen of a program, option, or window, esp. for selection. iconic adj. [Greek eikon image].”-Oxford Dictionary

    “image —n. 1 representation of an object, e.g. a statue. 2 reputation or persona of a person, company, etc. 3 appearance as seen in a mirror or through a lens. 4 mental picture or idea. 5 simile or metaphor. —v. (-ging) 1 make an image of; portray. 2 reflect, mirror. 3 describe or imagine vividly. be the image of be or look exactly like. [Latin imago imagin-].”-Oxford Dictionary


    WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT IMAGE OR ICON WORSHIP!

    Exodus 20:4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth.

    Deut 27:15 “‘Cursed is the man who makes a carved image or a molten statue, a thing detestable to Jehovah, the manufacture of the hands of a wood-and-metal worker, and who has put it in a hiding place.’

    Isa. 42:8 “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.



    The Point! If humans worship Jesus Christ then they worship an “image” (Gk. eikon) a “representation” a “copy” etc. which is idolatry:-

    1 John 5:21 “Little children, guard yourselves from idols.”


    BU

    Leave a comment:


  • foudroyant
    replied
    I think you should summarize it again just so you are clear in your delusions.

    Leave a comment:


  • apostoli
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    See Post #60.
    By your own witness, we have established over a lengthy period of time your total rejection of Christian belief...

    It is plainly obvious you do not subscribe to any form of Orthodox or Mainstream Christianity...

    Let us, again, summarise your denials of the standard/orthodox/mainstream Christian faith:

    1. You reject the teaching of the Nicene Creed, even though it has been reaffirmed continuously by the majority churches since at least 325CE.

    2. You reject that Jesus was begotten of the Father, not made, God from God.

    3. You reject that the Son is a distinct entity/individual/person from his Father. (You assume, despite the testimony of scripture, that the Father and Son are simply fabrications of the same person).

    4. You believe the Son was incarnated, as a phantasm, not a real person, who obviously, as being such, could not die on the cross.

    5. As you believe the Father and the Son are simply manifestations of the same person, then obviously you reject the witness of the NT, and most particularly reject A.John's testimony in the book of Revelation. Which is most strange! Given A.John, in his vision. has it that, in the end of times, the Son shares his Father's throne.

    6. You reject A.Paul's testimony that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead! ((Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; Rom. 4:24; 6:4; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Col. 2:12; Rom 8:11).

    7. You reject A.John's & A.Paul's inspired testimony, that all Jesus did, including his death and resurrection, was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)

    It is obvious to all viewers, that in your attempted diversions, not to mention the transparency of your cowardice through your continuous refusal (20 times) to respond to the simple Christian (universal) testimony I presented to you, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject mainstream and orthodox Christianity...

    So it greatly amuses me that in your absolute ignorance you would dare to persecute the JWs, given you are drowning in your delusional apostasy.

    It grieves me that you are so anti-Christ, that you reject his teaching, his disciples teaching, the apostles teaching and the teaching of mainstream Christianity (RCC,ROC,EOC,OCC,CoE,Lutherans etc etc)...

    Leave a comment:


  • foudroyant
    replied
    See Post #60.

    Leave a comment:


  • apostoli
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    I think there is something wrong with you.
    I know there is something wrong with you!!!! Possibly a bit too much weed????

    In any case we have established over a lengthy period of time your total rejection of Christian belief...

    _________________________

    It is plainly obvious you do not subscribe to any form of Christianity...

    Let us, again, summarise your denials of the standard/orthodox Christian faith:

    1. You reject the teaching of the Nicene Creed, even though it has been reaffirmed continuously by the majority churches since at least 325CE.

    2. You reject that Jesus was begotten of the Father, not made, God from God.

    3. You reject that the Son is a distinct entity/individual/person from his Father. (You assume, despite the testimony of scripture, that the Father and Son are simply fabrications of the same person).

    4. You believe the Son was incarnated, as a phantasm, not a real person, who obviously, as being such, could not die on the cross.

    5. As you believe the Father and the Son are simply manifestations of the same person, then obviously you reject the witness of the NT, and most particularly reject A.John's testimony in the book of Revelation. Which is most strange! Given A.John, in his vision. has it that, in the end of times, the Son shares his Father's throne.

    6. You reject A.Paul's testimony that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead! ((Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; Rom. 4:24; 6:4; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Col. 2:12; Rom 8:11).

    7. You reject A.John's & A.Paul's inspired testimony, that all Jesus did, including his death and resurrection, was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)

    It is obvious to all viewers, that in your attempted diversions, not to mention the transparancy of your cowardice through your continuous refusal (20 times) to respond to the simple Christian (universal) testimony I presented to you, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject mainstream and orthodox Christianity...

    So it greatly amuses me that in your absolute ignorance you would dare to persecute the JWs, given you are drowning in your delusional apostasy.

    It grieves me that you are so anti-Christ, that you reject his teaching, his disciples teaching, the apostles teaching and the teaching of mainstream Christianity (RCC,ROC,EOC,OCC,CoE,Lutherans etc etc)...

    _________________

    ps grasshopper: Get a concordance and discover the difference between proseuchē and deēsis then you might be able to formulate an argument...

    Leave a comment:


  • foudroyant
    replied
    I think there is something wrong with you.

    Leave a comment:


  • apostoli
    replied
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    See Post #68.
    It is plainly obvious you do not subscribe to any form of Christianity...

    Let us, again, summarise your denials of the standard/orthodox Christian faith:

    1. You reject the teaching of the Nicene Creed, even though it has been reaffirmed continuously by the majority churches since at least 325CE.

    2. You reject that Jesus was begotten of the Father, not made, God from God.

    3. You reject that the Son is a distinct entity/individual/person from his Father. (You assume, despite the testimony of scripture, that the Father and Son are simply fabrications of the same person).

    4. You believe the Son was incarnated, as a phantasm, not a real person, who obviously, as being such, could not die on the cross.

    5. As you believe the Father and the Son are simply manifestations of the same person, then obviously you reject the witness of the NT, and most particularly reject A.John's testimony in the book of Revelation. Which is most strange! Given A.John, in his vision. has it that, in the end of times, the Son shares his Father's throne.

    6. You reject A.Paul's testimony that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead! ((Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; Rom. 4:24; 6:4; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Col. 2:12; Rom 8:11).

    7. You reject A.John's & A.Paul's inspired testimony, that all Jesus did, including his death and resurrection, was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)

    It is obvious to all viewers, that in your attempted diversions, not to mention the transparancy of your cowardice through your continuous refusal (20 times) to respond to the simple Christian (universal) testimony I presented to you, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject mainstream and orthodox Christianity...

    So it greatly amuses me that in your absolute ignorance you would dare to persecute the JWs, given you are drowning in your delusional apostasy.

    It grieves me that you are so anti-Christ, that you reject his teaching, his disciples teaching, the apostles teaching and the teaching of mainstream Christianity (RCC,ROC,EOC,OCC,CoE,Lutherans etc etc)...

    _________________

    ps grasshopper: Get a concordance and discover the difference between proseuchē and deēsis then you might be able to formulate an argument...
    Last edited by apostoli; 08-14-2014, 11:06 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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