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Writing Your Torah

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  • #16
    Let's hold off a minute on "yes it is no it isn't" back and forth and see what Xtian Rabinovich says, I think he brings a good new perspective either way.

    Comment


    • #17
      Hi JohnnyP,

      Originally Posted by Xtian Rabinovich View Post
      In this way, the text remains open to the possibility of a new Hymn being taught, which would amount to the letters of the text being broken down differently, into different words, and different sentences, telling a different story.
      I'm glad you brought this up. Do you see a relationship to these ideas:
      Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

      In Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

      . . . I think the "Song of Moses" in Rev. 15:3 is related more to the "Song of the Sea" sung after passing through the Red Sea, rather than the Song of Moses given at Deut. 32. Revelation 15 is a heavenly group singing about their deliverance from the plagues that are about to be released on earth. . . They sing a mixture of the Song of the Sea, and the Song of the Lamb. The Song in Rev. 14:3, is probably the "Song of the Lamb."

      Premillennial Dispensationalists see the events in the book of Revelation as occurring in the last seven years of the Jewish age (which was interrupted by the insertion of the Church ----which is removed prior to the events in Revelation). So the Song of the Lamb could be the Jewish interpretation of the Torah-text informed by the New Testament, which is commentary on the original Torah-text.

      From a Premillenial Dispensationalist's perspective, once the Church is resurrected (prior to the events in Revelation) no person will ever again become a "Christian" in the sense that Christians exist today. The dispensation (where Christians are born) is ended at the start of the final seven years of the age of Israel. . . This means that even though Israel (and particularly the 144,000) will have the Church, and the New Testament as a guide, nevertheless, they will interpret the Torah-text in a new way informed by the Tanakh, the Talmud, the New Testament, and all the commentary related to these traditions (guided by the Holy Spirit). The believers of the Tribulation will not be OT Jews, nor Christians; they will be a new category of believer related directly to the OT Jew, but not exactly like the OT Jew, since they will realize that Messiah has actually walked the earth, and is about to return in a very short time.

      The Pentateuch (Torah-text) applies to every dispensation. It's just that each dispensation has a new perspective on how the text is to be interpreted. The Song of Moses at Deut. 32 is clearly taught to be a curse on Israel, and the way they will read the Torah-text. God says he already knows what is in Israel's heart to do when they come to the land (crucify Messiah) so that God gives them the cantillation (song) which will create a reading of the Torah-text that will lead them to do what they have in their hearts to do anyway. Jesus is crucified by the reading of the Torah-text that's true to the cantillation created by the Song of Moses in Deut. 32.

      Since the original Torah-text is consonants only, with no sentence breaks or punctuation, some means of breaking the consonants down into words and sentences must come with the text. That's what the Song of Moses is. It's a way to break down the text in a manner that curses Israel before they even perform the act that they're being cursed for. God implies that when Israel crucifies Messiah, He will be able to show them His foreknowledge of their wayward hearts, in that he gave them a cursed reading of the Torah-text that proved that He already knew their hearts. The scripture implies that at some point, when Israel finally sees that Jesus was (and is) Messiah, they will see that the Song of Moses is proof positive of God's foreknowledge of their crime . . . and thus His willingness to forgive them for even that crime, since otherwise He could have simply annihilated them on the spot.

      There seems to be the implication that Israel will need to understand the Song of Moses as a prediction of the crucifixion in order for them to properly orient to the events that will unfold when Jesus Christ is revealed to Israel after the Resurrection of the Church (which begins the Tribulation).

      Comment


      • #18
        Interesting, thanks. I'm googling around but do you know of any resources offering different interpretations regarding, "each dispensation has a new perspective on how the text is to be interpreted"?

        And would you say that "Mitzvah 16. That every person shall write a scroll of the Torah for himself (Deut. 31:19) (CCA15)." is misinterpreted, or stated correctly?

        Comment


        • #19
          Hi JohnnyP,

          Interesting, thanks. I'm googling around but do you know of any resources offering different interpretations regarding, "each dispensation has a new perspective on how the text is to be interpreted"?
          There's the slight problem that most of the resources on the nature of the Torah-text as a cipher (requiring an oral set of instructions for interpretation) are found mostly (as far as I know) in the writing of Jewish sages with a mystical bent on the Bible. On the other hand, I'm not familiar with any Jewish teaching that's "dispensational" (in the Christian sense of the word) since Judaism rejects Christianity as a legitimate approach (or dispensation) to God. The only dispensational distinction within Judaism, and the one that's related to their understanding of different readings of the Torah-text, is the distinction between the pre-Messianic world/dispensation, and the post-Messianic world/dispensation.

          According to Judaism the way Jews read the Torah will only be changed in a drastic way when Messiah comes. And naturally, since Christians believe Messiah has come, the fact that they (Christians) read the Torah in a new way, is not itself outside of Jewish teaching (since they believe they will read it differently when Messiah comes) but only outside of Judaism's belief that Messiah has not yet come.

          One of the most fascinating doctrines of Judaism is related to their concept of a "chok" (plural "chukkim"). A "chok" is a "decree" found in the Torah whose meaning is beyond the ken of Jews until Messiah comes. Jews are to obey the "decree" chok חק, practice the decree, even though they have no clue what it means (they admit that they don't know what it means, and aren't supposed to, until the arrival of Messiah).

          Take physical circumcision for instance. By taking a knife to the male-organ (symbolic emasculation), the virgin birth of Messiah is prophesied. When Messiah comes, he will be born of a virgin (though Jews don't know this since for them he hasn't come) . . . such that then, they will see the meaning of taking a knife and "cutting" the Messianic covenant with God. They will only know the true meaning of the "decrees" after Messiah comes, since his arrival will provide all the information necessary for them to retroactively re-interpret those areas of the Torah-text that seemed not to have much reasoning behind them prior to the arrival and dispensation of the Messiah.

          And would you say that "Mitzvah 16. That every person shall write a scroll of the Torah for himself (Deut. 31:19) (CCA15)." is misinterpreted, or stated correctly?
          Firstly, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of rules that must be followed to correctly write a Torah-text. If even one of these rules is not followed, the text is to be destroyed. That's why "Sofers" (professional scribes) are employed to produce all Torah-texts. The idea that every Jew could learn and practice all the intricacies associated with the writing of a Torah-text seems absurd. Secondly, Deuteronomy 31:19, clearly appears to tell Moses to write the song, but then put it in the mouths of the children of Israel. Israel is to memorize it as a song. It's to be in their ears and mouth. There doesn't appear to be any command for anyone but Moses to write the song.
          Last edited by Xtian Rabinovich; 02-08-2014, 08:45 AM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Xtian Rabinovich View Post
            According to Judaism the way Jews read the Torah will only be changed in a drastic way when Messiah comes.
            Could you elaborate on this point? I understand that one reason why some Jews reject Jesus as Messiah was his treatment of the Torah, so they probably think that Torah shouldn't be changed?

            Comment


            • #21
              Hi Paprika,

              Originally Posted by Xtian Rabinovich View Post
              According to Judaism the way Jews read the Torah will only be changed in a drastic way when Messiah comes.
              Could you elaborate on this point? I understand that one reason why some Jews reject Jesus as Messiah was his treatment of the Torah, so they probably think that Torah shouldn't be changed?

              Many are unaware that the original text received by Moses, from God's amanuensis, the angel, was not even a readable text. It was merely a cipher, a code requiring a key. The string of consonants received by Moses are "sacred." They are the Word of God. But since they can't be read without a key, they're worthless to mankind unless a key is provided. The "oral" Torah a key used to break the sting of consonants into individual words and sentences. But God commanded that the "oral" Torah never be written down. It was to be passed only through the "mouth" and the "ear." In this way, no particular interpretation would be incorporated as the authoritative reading until Messiah arrived with a new hymn, a new key, unlocking the deeper mysteries that were withheld from Israel until Messiah's arrival.

              This was all known to Israel at one time. But they incorporated, against God's commandment, the Song of Moses (a particular cantillation pattern) into the Torah-text as though it is the only, or the authoritative reading/rendering of the Torah-text (represented today by the Masoretic Text).

              When Jesus came with the new hymn he was rejected precisely because Israel, in opposition to the most important commandment they were given, to protect the Torah-text until Messiah, had incorporated a curse (the Song of Moses) into the Torah-text (through a cantillation pattern) thereby turning the Torah into a funeral dirge instead of the glorious Song of the Lamb.

              Throughout his ministry Jesus said something to the order of: You have heard it said [referencing the Torah as interpreted through the Song of Moses] . . . but I tell you . . . [at which time he gives a new interpretation of the Torah]. It's this new interpretation of the Torah that got him crucified. But not necessarily because he was re-interpreting the Torah. Many of the Pharisees knew that it was legitimate to reinterpret the Torah. They didn't necessarily reject his right to reinterpret the Torah so much as they rejected his interpretation.

              But they condemned him to death based on the authority they got from a fixed and traditional interpretation. This is what's suggested when God implies that he already knew what was in their heart to do, such that he gave them the Song of Moses so that they would do it. They fulfilled God's great plan in crucifying the Messiah . . . using the Song of Moses as a rendering of the Torah-text authorizing them to crucify Jesus. At a future date, they will see the role they played in God's plan, will see that he foreknew their murderous intentions toward Jesus, gave them the authorization they wanted to convict and kill him, and delivered them their justification.

              But they will also see, as many Christians see, that it was God's plan that Jesus be crucified, such that Israel was still working, in a strange way, within the confines of God's plan. When Israel sees that God used even their evil intent to fulfill his great plan, they will return to him in droves, and with renewed faith in him. The blood that was on their hands as condemnation for their rejection of God's Messiah will become the blood that washes them free from their sins. They will wash themselves in the mikvah of God's blood and be re-entered into their covenant relationship with God.

              Since that covenant relationship with God is not the covenant God has established with the Church, the mass conversion of Israel will not occur until after the Resurrection of the Church. Something centered around that event, will awaken Israel. They will re-evaluate the Torah-text, in a new light, and they will finally see. . . Unfortunately this seeing will occur during the Tribulation, when the greatest opposition to the Torah that has ever existed will be in full swing. These Jewish believer who finally come to see the nature of their Messiah, will mostly be martyred for their insights.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Xtian Rabinovich View Post
                The idea that every Jew could learn and practice all the intricacies associated with the writing of a Torah-text seems absurd.
                Interesting idea about circumcision, I want to research that aspect more.

                Commentary from Chabad suggesting one may commission a scribe to write it, own it as part of a community, etc.

                http://m.chabad.org/library/article_...rah-Scroll.htm

                Do you believe listing 613 mitzvot on websites, English translations in the Bible, etc. is violating anything by not writing Torah text in Hebrew?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Hi JohnnyP,

                  Do you believe listing 613 mitzvot on websites, English translations in the Bible, etc. is violating anything by not writing Torah text in Hebrew?
                  I don't know. But there's a great essay in Derrida's Acts of Religion, discussing Gershom Scholem's concerns about secularizing Hebrew concepts. Scholem thought it could unleash demonic forces on the world.
                  Last edited by Xtian Rabinovich; 02-09-2014, 12:04 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    interesting thoughts Rabinovich

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Xtian Rabinovich View Post
                      I don't know. But there's a great essay in Derrida's Acts of Religion, discussing Gershom Scholem's concerns about secularizing Hebrew concepts. Scholem thought it could unleash demonic forces on the world.
                      Thanks, I'll have to research that.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                        The text doesn't support it.


                        This is the song, and not the law.
                        Considering that Judaism isnt a sola scriptura religion the argument of "the text doesnt support it" is a moot point. The Interpretation of the text in our Oral Law does support it.
                        אברהם אבן עזרא

                        Avraham Ibn Ezra

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
                          Considering that Judaism isnt a sola scriptura religion the argument of "the text doesnt support it" is a moot point. The Interpretation of the text in our Oral Law does support it.
                          Since the questions also included "should Christians do [it]", the point is pertinent.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                            Since the questions also included "should Christians do [it]", the point is pertinent.
                            Yeah it would be for Christians. Not so much for Jews which is why my response was taylored toward Judaism not Christianity.
                            אברהם אבן עזרא

                            Avraham Ibn Ezra

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Helpful article:

                              Quote
                              In this essay, we will list the various evidence we have for the Torah - what are called the "witnesses" of the text. Additionally, we will discuss the usefulness of each witness and, in this, depart from the standard academic method. Emanuel Tov wrote in what quickly became the standard handbook on textual criticism of the Bible, "[M]any scholars, including the present author, believe that all readings which have been created in the course of the textual transmission ought to be evaluated " (Emanuel Tov, Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, p. 295). We disagree. Almost anyone who attends synagogue regularly has witnessed the finding of a mistake in a Torah scroll. An average Torah has some mistakes and therefore the precise reading of any given word is suspect. There are, however, better than average scrolls and even excellent scrolls that have been reviewed carefully many times. Only those witnesses that are known to be excellent scrolls are valid evidence. Average scrolls, such as the one in our synagogue, can hardly be used as proof of the original Torah text.

                              In addition to this, we will also depart from academics in the following. We will assume that, absent any evidence to the contrary, the text that is agreed upon by the Jewish community - the textus receptus that is claimed to be the Masoretic Text - is correct. In halacha, this is called chazaka. We will abide by the status quo until it is categorically disproven and only in those areas that it is disproven. Thus, if it is demonstrated that the textus receptus is inaccurate in its differentiation between א and ה - sometimes switching them - we will draw no conclusion regarding the differentiation between masculine and feminine nouns. Those are very different areas. Just because - and if - scribes made mistakes between א and ה does not mean that the entire text is worthless. It only means that any given א might be a ה and vice versa. However, if we detect evidence that the scribes who wrote this text were consistently careless in many areas or had no compunction regarding intentionally changing the text, then we have no choice but to disregard the entire text.

                              http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_text.html


                              Originally posted by Xtian Rabinovich View Post
                              Hi JohnnyP,



                              There's the slight problem that most of the resources on the nature of the Torah-text as a cipher (requiring an oral set of instructions for interpretation) are found mostly (as far as I know) in the writing of Jewish sages with a mystical bent on the Bible. On the other hand, I'm not familiar with any Jewish teaching that's "dispensational" (in the Christian sense of the word) since Judaism rejects Christianity as a legitimate approach (or dispensation) to God. The only dispensational distinction within Judaism, and the one that's related to their understanding of different readings of the Torah-text, is the distinction between the pre-Messianic world/dispensation, and the post-Messianic world/dispensation.

                              According to Judaism the way Jews read the Torah will only be changed in a drastic way when Messiah comes. And naturally, since Christians believe Messiah has come, the fact that they (Christians) read the Torah in a new way, is not itself outside of Jewish teaching (since they believe they will read it differently when Messiah comes) but only outside of Judaism's belief that Messiah has not yet come.

                              One of the most fascinating doctrines of Judaism is related to their concept of a "chok" (plural "chukkim"). A "chok" is a "decree" found in the Torah whose meaning is beyond the ken of Jews until Messiah comes. Jews are to obey the "decree" chok חק, practice the decree, even though they have no clue what it means (they admit that they don't know what it means, and aren't supposed to, until the arrival of Messiah).

                              Take physical circumcision for instance. By taking a knife to the male-organ (symbolic emasculation), the virgin birth of Messiah is prophesied. When Messiah comes, he will be born of a virgin (though Jews don't know this since for them he hasn't come) . . . such that then, they will see the meaning of taking a knife and "cutting" the Messianic covenant with God. They will only know the true meaning of the "decrees" after Messiah comes, since his arrival will provide all the information necessary for them to retroactively re-interpret those areas of the Torah-text that seemed not to have much reasoning behind them prior to the arrival and dispensation of the Messiah.



                              Firstly, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of rules that must be followed to correctly write a Torah-text. If even one of these rules is not followed, the text is to be destroyed. That's why "Sofers" (professional scribes) are employed to produce all Torah-texts. The idea that every Jew could learn and practice all the intricacies associated with the writing of a Torah-text seems absurd. Secondly, Deuteronomy 31:19, clearly appears to tell Moses to write the song, but then put it in the mouths of the children of Israel. Israel is to memorize it as a song. It's to be in their ears and mouth. There doesn't appear to be any command for anyone but Moses to write the song.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Hi footwasher,

                                Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                                The issue I was discussing is not about possible scribal errors in the text. Those would indeed be mostly unimportant to the broader interpretation of the text (in most cases). I'm discussing the fact that the original Torah text required punctuation to even be read. And that punctuation was never to be placed on the consonantal text. The original text of the Torah is to be treated like a cipher. Numerous keys (ways to divide and punctuate the text) could be given to decipher the consonants into different words and different sentences.

                                The Song of Moses is a funeral dirge used to turn the cipher into a wrathful text filled with commandments and threats and punishment. But the Gospel is a new song. A song of grace and joy. The Gospel is a key that can be used to decipher the Torah text in a way not familiar to the Jews.

                                The desire to privilege the first song, The Song of Moses (the Masoretic Text) is a carnal desire. The Gospel, though antecedent to The Song of Moses, is, by reason of progressive nature of the revelation, perceived as the second born. But in truth it's the firstborn. Even as the Torah text begins with a bet, when in fact the alef is the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet. . . Carnal people look at the world and the Torah through the eyes of the flesh and attempt to worship and privilege the second born over the first because of the arrow of time that makes them think the true firstborn is in fact secondary.

                                Abel is the firstborn. Cain usurped his birth order to gain glory and privilege (and to make Abel appear insignificant). Jesus Christ is the firstborn of all creation. But Lucifer usurped the birth order to make Jesus Christ appear insignificant.

                                Comment

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