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  • #16


    The Birth of Jesus Foretold

    26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

    29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

    34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

    35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”

    (small note: Isaiah 55 v. 10-11)

    If...this was based off of a "normal" pregnancy - conception, then the laws would follow! However, since "Mary" was not married at the time and since she submitted to God's will - then the birth of Christ would be considered much like creation - focusing on John 1. Reading from Genesis "And God blessed the seventh day and He hallowed it, for thereon He abstained from all His work that God created to do.." The Shabbat! As written, "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath," Matthew 12:8

    John 1

    The Word Became Flesh

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.


    How could the laws (Niddah) apply? Especially when discussing the process of a pregnancy and a natural birth verses divine? When God created and sent us his son, Jesus?

    Sources:

    Reflections on Hilkhot Niddah

    Female Purity (Niddah)

    Chapter 12 of Leviticus
    Last edited by Marta; 12-06-2016, 01:47 PM.

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    • #17
      John 1:14,
      And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


      Mankind's sinful nature is do to disobedience causing the finite man to obtain God's knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22). God being infinite good, but man being a finite good creation, was corrupted by the knowledge of evil.

      Now Jesus being human through his mother inherited that "knowledge of good and evil." But that knowledge was always part of His divine nature (Genesis 3:22, John 1:3, 10, 14, 18).

      So it was:
      Hebrews 4:15,
      For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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      • #18
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        John 1:14,
        And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


        Mankind's sinful nature is do to disobedience causing the finite man to obtain God's knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22). God being infinite good, but man being a finite good creation, was corrupted by the knowledge of evil.

        Now Jesus being human through his mother inherited that "knowledge of good and evil." But that knowledge was always part of His divine nature (Genesis 3:22, John 1:3, 10, 14, 18).

        So it was:
        Hebrews 4:15,
        For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
        We would have to go to the law - Torah. Apostle Paul stated that the law was a way to recognize sin:

        What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." Romans 7:7
        In the same way Jesus came to explain and teach the law - to clarify the law. John 18:37, "Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So-then You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You are saying that I am a king. I have been born for this. And I have come into the world for this: that I might testify to the truth. Everyone being of the truth hears My voice”.

        Another entry, Jesus had asked what others viewed in the law, "26“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” As to listen how others interpreted the law or how they understood it. The (expert in the law) or we could say the person was a posek, continues to ask Jesus for an understanding to that particular part of the law - as to educate. Jesus gives his interpretation and leaves it up to the questioner or immediate community for the understanding. The way Jesus explains the law is very simple and the community than has a way to be guided.

        You know, Jesus was amazed at some of the things that people reached out for his guidance and physical needs. However, and reading from scripture, how angry Jesus became at the teachers - calling them blind leaders, and some that didn't practice what they preached, "Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: 2“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.…", and in others Jesus had to condemn them as in John 9:41, "41“If you were blind, Jesus replied, “you would not be guilty of sin. But since you claim you can see,’ your guilt remains.” So Jesus reprimanded them - as well. Good Teachers normally do. We (on this site) have to reprimand others - in order to guide. Some strongly.

        Jesus, yes - knew good and evil but he knew, like Moses did, that the Israelite's, if not well guided, would stray from the law but Jesus also knew they needed guidance. Two passages,

        Deuteronomy 31

        Assemble the people, the men and the women and children and [a]the alien who is in your town, so that they may hear and learn and fear the Lord your God, and be careful to observe all the words of this law

        and,

        Then it shall come about, when many evils and troubles have come upon them, that this song will testify before them as a witness (for it shall not be forgotten from the lips of their descendants); for I know their intent which they are developing today, before I have brought them into the land which I swore.”......(Reason for the song), 27 For I know your rebellion and your stubbornness; behold, while I am still alive with you today, you have been rebellious against the Lord; how much more, then, after my death?


        This is a thought about Jesus coming to us and giving us God's salvation. Jesus came to us, and as sinful in nature as we were, to give us hope of the law - to give it a kind of human understanding. We see the law as being stern and unrelenting and that's how, probably, everyone took it - from John 9, "16 Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” and even Jesus acknowledged healing on the sabbath in Luke 13, he said, "“You hypocrites! Doesn’t each of you on the Sabbath untie your ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water? 16Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?”

        When the apostle Paul wrote this passage, "14 Therefore, since we have such a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin.…

        I believe he wrote it with the idea that Jesus was not only compassionate but knew the law in it entirety - (considering the Torah was given to mankind by God - or as written in the NT, 'The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator,Glatians3:19)perhaps sometimes in anger as sometimes he was ( we could look to him with hope - even when we sin. The law, Torah, was handed to man from heaven (Romans 10:5-13)and given to us to choose life but just like the garden, as the Apostle Paul said - sin entered into the law, the same way.

        The reasoning's for knowing good from evil - and the only one who would know either one would be God, who is our judge. How could the serpent give such a speech to Eve when God knows the inner most thoughts of man and who is our judge? How could we determine what is truly in someone heart and how (when we have difficulties ourselves) know how to interpret a law that came directly from heaven. Who is the best judge in character?
        Last edited by Marta; 01-07-2017, 06:38 AM.

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        • #19
          Makes no sense to me. Sin is an act of the will, not a DNA factor. Did Adam's DNA become mutated when he sinned?
          Last edited by Faber; 01-07-2017, 08:38 AM.
          When I Survey....

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Faber View Post
            Makes no sense to me. Sin is an act of the will, not a DNA factor. Did Adam's DNA become mutated when he sinned?
            Yes, sin is an act of the will. However, there are degrees of sin as there are degrees of punishments. Many examples of these sins were in the New Testament that Jesus cured. Why couldn't the Rabbis of that time cure them? and if you know scripture than explain the cure of the blind man.

            John 9: Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind. Jesus said that "the blind man" parent's weren't the one's who were to blame for this sin. However, the apostles still believed that sin could create its own (generational) punishment. What did Jesus say to this? "3“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

            Rabbi's said, 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. 32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”

            34 To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.

            Jesus added, "39 Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

            No sin is not something that's in the DNA - its in the soul. God redeems us from the sin and grant's us His salvation by grace.

            John 6:37

            36 But as I told you, you have seen Me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never turn away. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.…
            Last edited by Marta; 01-08-2017, 06:28 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Faber View Post
              Makes no sense to me. Sin is an act of the will, not a DNA factor. Did Adam's DNA become mutated when he sinned?
              How do you understand mankind having a sinful nature on account of Adam's disobedience (Romans 5:12-17)?
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                How do you understand mankind having a sinful nature on account of Adam's disobedience (Romans 5:12-17)?
                I have issues with the doctrine of sinful nature as I have seen it taught, especially within the Holiness/Wesleyan scholars. The NIV usually translates the
                greek word σὰρξ as sinful nature, suggesting in inward motivation toward sin (Except when used of Jesus). The word means "flesh", our point of contact . It's the external influence that prompts us toward sin, just as it did with Adam and Eve.

                It's like that question, do we sin because we're sinners or are we sinners because we sin? I suggest the latter.

                Jesus was 100% human. Why would we have a sinful nature and He didn't? He was tempted (in all points just as we are, yet without sin) by Satan, who appealed to His σὰρξ.
                When I Survey....

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Xtian Rabinovich View Post
                  Mary is not sinless since sin infects every cell of every body (save one: the seed of the woman after meiotic cleansing). The female seed throws off half of it's chromosomes in the process that makes the seed of the woman the only cell in the human body that has no sin. The male seed doesn't throw off half of its chromosomes.
                  Both male and female seed have only 23 chromosomes as opposed to 2*23.

                  So, for your argument to make sense, you need not just an ovulum without sin, but that ovulum in a female body without sin.

                  That is exactly what Catholics and Orthodox say the Blessed Virgin's body was (Catholics : from moment of conception; Orthodox : either from moment of conception or some later moment).
                  http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

                  Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Faber View Post
                    Jesus was 100% human. Why would we have a sinful nature and He didn't? He was tempted (in all points just as we are, yet without sin) by Satan, who appealed to His σὰρξ.
                    But while His Flesh had complaisance with the things offered, it did not rebel against His Will and push it against obedience to God.

                    Our flesh not only has complaisance with things offered by sin, but also with sin.
                    http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

                    Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Faber View Post
                      It's like that question, do we sin because we're sinners or are we sinners because we sin? I suggest the latter.
                      We, but not Jesus and Mary, are born sinners because Adam sinned. We cease to be sinners (there is only a remaining "tinder of sin") immediately on baptism, but we can become sinners in the full and damning sense again if we sin mortally.
                      http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

                      Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
                        We, but not Jesus and Mary, are born sinners because Adam sinned. We cease to be sinners (there is only a remaining "tinder of sin") immediately on baptism, but we can become sinners in the full and damning sense again if we sin mortally.
                        We can fall away from God's grace if we have an attitude that since we are saved that nothing can touch or affect us (Isn't this the same case as the Israelite's that the apostle Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 10:2-12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! The apostle Paul is saying that they are a good example of what could happen - which, it is easy to fall but again, our Lord Jesus said this,


                        Matthew 18:21
                        Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?"

                        Luke 17:3
                        Watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

                        Leviticus 19:

                        “ ‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the Lord.

                        17“ ‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.

                        18“ ‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

                        19“ ‘Keep my decrees.

                        I hope I understand Faber well. Is the question about if man inherited a sinful nature or is it that man will sin because he chooses to sin like Adam who had free will to chose to sin along with Eve. How can we inherit Adam's & Eve's sin? I understand that its not in the DNA system which is a physical aspect of man but this falls under a spiritual nature from within the soul - call it a covenant between God and man. Wasn't the first "covenant" or "agreement" with Adam? And, as a punishment for breaking the covenant (which brought Noah) both Adam & Eve were exiled out of the garden of Eden. We are continually looking for a way to return back - salvation by God's grace for redemption. I like the second explanation for redemption, "the action of regaining or gaining possession of something in exchange for payment, or clearing a debt."

                        A debt! that needs to be paid! (Hebrews 9, "since a death has occurred that redeems them from the offenses committed under the first covenant") What Faber wants to know - was this debt from the 1st agreement? Through Adam & Eve? Since we know that the Exodus was a redemption process by God through his servant Moshe, correct. What's good about the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 10 is that he explains that even though the Israelites were redemption and were baptized (and as an example to us all), God was not pleased with them and scattered them. The same thing can happen to us (and the Apostle Paul use this same example in Romans 11:17 The Ingrafting of the Gentiles)




                        Passage: 1 Corinthians 10

                        12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

                        Hebrews 3:12-14 "See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first."

                        Hebrews 6:4-6, 4 For it is impossible to keep on restoring to repentance time and again people who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have become partners with the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of God’s word and the powers of the coming age, 6 and who have fallen away, as long as they continue to crucify the Son of God to their own detriment by exposing him to public ridicule. 7 For when the ground soaks up rain that often falls on it and continues producing vegetation useful to those for whom it is cultivated, it receives a blessing from God. (see Isaiah 55:11) 8 However, if it continues to produce thorns and thistles, it is worthless and in danger of being cursed, and in the end will be burned.

                        In Hebrews 6, "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who were once enlightened"? The writer does not say, "us who were once enlightened," nor "you," but "those who have once been enlightened." He draws a sharp contrast between "Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you," -

                        A critical word in the interpretation of this passage is adunatos translated "impossible" in all of our accurate English translations. It is also used in Hebrews 6:18 where the author tells us it is impossible for God to lie, In Hebrews 10:4 it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins, and in Hebrews 11:6 we are told that without faith it is impossible to please God. Here it reads, "For it is impossible . . . to renew them again to repentance." The word "renew" must also be taken with its full meaning. Repentance is the work of the Holy Spirit on the heart of the individual. The Holy Spirit brings about this change in the mind that affects the whole person.

                        quote
                        Can this statement be true? Even when reading Nehemiah 9 and Daniel 9 in the same context in prayer as to be forgiven and in sincerity the children of Israel at that time. And, in the same vein as both Leviticus and Matthew on how many time that you forgive your brother or brothers for wronging. The sins that remain on the soul can they be covered (sort of speak) but not completely washed away? Could this be with Adam and Eve? Covered as to survive but not washed away? See also this passage, Hebrews 6 "8 However, if it continues to produce thorns and thistles, it is worthless and in danger of being cursed, and in the end will be burned." or even this passage, "15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up and causes you trouble, or many of you will become defiled."

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
                          We, but not Jesus and Mary, are born sinners because Adam sinned. We cease to be sinners (there is only a remaining "tinder of sin") immediately on baptism, but we can become sinners in the full and damning sense again if we sin mortally.
                          Correction: What's good about the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 10 is that he explains that even though the Israelites were redeemed and were baptized (1 Corinthians 10:2-5 and the Apostle Paul used this as an example to us all), God was not pleased with them and scattered most of them. The same thing can happen to us (and the Apostle Paul use this same example in Romans 11:17 The Ingrafting of the Gentiles).

                          The reason why I brought up Matthew and Leviticus is because that when you/ or we "ask" for forgiveness from our brother (as with God) you ask in all sincerity - from the soul. As scripture states - God knows the spirit and thoughts of every soul and know its sincerity. When we accept Christ or when we are redeemed (bought from a debt) it is out of Love for us but in return God knows our own thought for that gift.

                          Is it man's sinful nature or his sincerity/love for what was given to him?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
                            We, but not Jesus and Mary, are born sinners because Adam sinned. We cease to be sinners (there is only a remaining "tinder of sin") immediately on baptism, but we can become sinners in the full and damning sense again if we sin mortally.

                            Repeating - then you're implying about the story of the man who cleans out his house (himself) which then the bad (or sinfulness) leaves "but" then returns bringing seven devils like himself (and after roaming). When this sinfulness re-enter's into the man, the sin becomes worst than before or worst than the first.

                            Question! Jesus was approached by a leading teacher (scripture says "ruler") of the community and was asked this question, "18 A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Then Jesus points out certain parts of the law and the man indicates that he had followed those laws since he was a little boy. Jesus then tells the man that he is still lacking, "The come and follow me".

                            The question is the fact that the man followed the law but couldn't give up what he had to follow Jesus when asked - so how does this man stand? and from his original question on eternal life? Then all who heard this said, "26 Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”

                            27 Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”.

                            The idea with the original passage of the unclean spirit is that man can't save himself or can't clean up his own sins (the many) or that the sins that were in his life needed God's grace, forgiveness before this man could continue on. The passage stated that the spirit "roamed" looking for another place and couldn't find any - so that "sin" or "spirit" takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. Making it impossible for the man to change - or even in this state of sin can one receive God's grace? (1 Samuel 14:41)

                            1 Thessalonians 2: 16, "In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last"

                            Sin must have limits - and you wonder, it almost as if sin racks up a debt until a person feels so much debt that they become overwhelmed. It is impossible for one to save himself from sin even when a man wants to change his life and to make himself clean again - it is by the grace of God and a sincere heart, "2 Timothy 2: 22 Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart." Even though we may "clean" ourselves up (again) it doesn't necessarily mean that God partook in the salvation. When bringing up salvation - it is by God's compassion and mercy that we are saved, inside, John 6:37. There were a few (some) as the apostle Paul said that were scattered in the desert because they looked back, sort of speak, to Egypt - much like Lot's wife who looked back (when the angel told them not to) toward Sodom and Gomorrah. 2 Timothy 2: 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will. (see, John 6:37 (again)

                            Much was written from the apostle Paul on this, Hebrews 12:15 "See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many."

                            Again, last - regarding the sin we inherited and that some believe was on Mary which I can't believe, in all honesty, is the truth. I can't imagine that Mary had sin on her soul while she was with Christ in maternal way. The scripture pointed this out very plainly in Luke 1, "41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit." and also, "46 And Mary said:“My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior"

                            How can sin reign in a soul? Unlike the DNA - the soul, has many dimensions of it own, "Powers of the Soul". As Jesus told us that if we had enough faith we could move mountains - faith isn't based on knowledge or intelligence - it is a conviction in the soul, its knowing. Faith is innate conviction, a perception of truth that transcends, rather than evades, reason. As long as you have that faith how could sin reign? Jesus said to many, " "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." or in another verses, "Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.…

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