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The New Testament is Anti-Semitic

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  • #46
    All these facts make my head hurt. Make it stop!

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      I do not believe it is. Charles Manson broke away and does his own thing. I may check this out a little more.
      Charles Manson was a Bahai?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        How about this, is it a valid Baha'i source?
        "... ‘The hand of God,’ say the Jews, ‘is chained up.’ Chained up be their own hands; And for that which they have said, they were accursed. ..."

        http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-13.html.utf8?

        Or this?
        " ... What harm could come from a statement by the Jews that Jesus was also a Manifestation of the Word of God? Have the Christians suffered for their belief in Moses? Have they experienced any loss of religious enthusiasm or witnessed any defeat in their religious belief by declaring that Moses was a Prophet of God, that the Torah was a Book of God and that all the prophets of Israel were prophets of God? It is evident that no loss comes from this. And now it is time for the Jews to declare that Christ was the Word of God, and then this enmity between two great religions will pass away. For two thousand years this enmity and religious prejudice have continued. Blood has been shed, ordeals have been suffered. These few words will remedy the difficulty and unite two great religions. What harm could follow this: that just as the Christians glorify and praise the name of Moses, likewise the Jews should commemorate the name of Christ, declare Him to be the Word of God and consider Him as one of the chosen Messengers of God?"

        http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/P...120.html.utf8?

        Or this?
        Through failing to understand the meaning of the prophecies about the dominion of the Messiah, the Jews rejected Christ. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá says:—
        The Jews still await the coming of the Messiah, and pray to God day and night to hasten His advent. When Jesus came they denounced and slew Him, saying: “This is not the One for Whom we wait. ..."

        Thus the Jews thought and spoke, for they did not understand the Scriptures nor the glorious truths that were contained in them. The letter they knew by heart, but of the life-giving Spirit they understood not a word.

        http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/o/BN...170.html.utf8?

        Or this?
        The greatest cause of bereavement and disheartening in the world of humanity is ignorance based upon blind imitation. It is due to this that wars and battles prevail; from this cause hatred and animosity arise continually among mankind. Through failure to investigate reality the Jews rejected His Holiness Jesus Christ. They were expecting his coming; by day and night they mourned and lamented, saying, “O God! hasten thou the day of the advent of Christ,” expressing most intense longing for the Messiah but when His Holiness Christ appeared they denied and rejected him, treated him with arrogant contempt, sentenced him to death and finally crucified him. Why did this happen? Because they were blindly following imitations, believing that which had descended to them as a heritage from their fathers and ancestors; tenaciously holding to it and refusing to investigate the reality of Christ. Therefore they were deprived of the bounties of His Holiness whereas if they had forsaken imitations and investigated the reality of the Messiah they would have surely been guided to believing in him.

        http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/FWU/fwu-22.html.utf8?

        Or this?
        This was realized when peoples of all religions, nationalities and dispositions became united in their beliefs and followed Christ in humility, associating in love and brotherhood under the shadow of his divine protection. The Jews, being blind to this and holding to their bigoted imitations, were insolent and arrogant toward His Holiness and crucified him. Had they investigated the reality of Christ they would have beheld his beauty and truth.

        http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/FWU/fwu-22.html.utf8?

        Or this perhaps?
        Consider the symbolical meanings of the Words and teachings of Christ. He said, “I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever.” When the Jews heard this, they took it literally and failed to understand the significance of His meaning and teaching. The spiritual truth which Christ wished to convey to them was that the reality of Divinity within Him was like a blessing which had come down from heaven and that he who partook of this blessing should never die. That is to say, bread was the symbol of the perfections which had descended upon Him from God, and he who ate of this bread, or endowed himself with the perfections of Christ, would undoubtedly attain to everlasting life. The Jews did not understand Him, and taking the words literally, said, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Had they understood the real meaning of the Holy Book, they would have become believers in Christ. ... Most of the Jews had memorized the texts of the Old Testament and repeated them night and day, but inasmuch as they were ignorant of the meanings, they were deprived of the bounties of Christ.

        http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/P...136.html.utf8?
        These are good sources. There are consequences to rejecting the promised messiah and the guidance and blessings that the Messiah brings. The world and the people do suffer from the rejection ot Divine Revelation. Actually I believe when most Jews rejected Christ, the religion became Roman and the consequences that followed.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-18-2014, 09:18 PM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          These are good sources. There are consequences to rejecting the promised messiah and the guidance and blessings that the Messiah brings. The world and the people do suffer from the rejection ot Divine Revelation. Actually I believe when most Jews rejected Christ, the religion became Roman and the consequences that followed.
          Wow! That's a change in tone.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            These are good sources. There are consequences to rejecting the promised messiah and the guidance and blessings that the Messiah brings. The world and the people do suffer from the rejection ot Divine Revelation. Actually I believe when most Jews rejected Christ, the religion became Roman and the consequences that followed.
            Is that why you believe the Jews were accursed? That sounds rather anti-Semitic to me. Cursed? Seriously? That seems like very strong negative language for the Bahá’u’lláh.
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              Shuny, is this an authentic Baha'i source?

              http://bahai-library.com/brown_haifa_notes[/indent]
              This is what is known by Bahais as a "pilgrims note", the equivalent of a hadith in Islam. It is somebody's recollections of what one of the central figures of the Bahai Faith said and did. Such recollections are not regarded as Bahai scripture and cannot be relied on to represent "the Bahai view" on anything. They do however have some value as historical sources, depending entirely on the reliability of the witness and how secure the chain of transmission is. Many are quite fantastical and in some cases they are interpolated or fictional. One can also compare the recollections of different people to the same event. Even if one is sure that Shoghi Effendi said X, however, it does not follow that X is Bahai teachings, for it misses the essential ingredient: when Shoghi Effendi said X, did he mean that as authentic Bahai teachings? If he did, he would write it, and the written version would be the authenticated one.

              Comment


              • #52
                Shuny, you are thinking of Charles Mason Remey, who is a different person entirely, and in any case has nothing to do with Ramona Brown, the author of the account of her pilgrimmage that was cited above.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Hello Sen, welcome to Theologyweb. Hope you stick around. It'll be nice to get another Bahai's view on that particular faith, and how it interacts/intersects with other faith systems. Shunya tends to be extremely hostile towards other religious worldviews (especially Christianity) that he seems to consider outdated, impractical, and superstitious.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Only the first of your quotes is authentic Robrecht: the one from Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      Hello Sen, welcome to Theologyweb.
                      Thank you; I am the same person as senmcglinn, whose registration seems to have been lost. I studied Christian theology and history, and then Islamic Studies, which gives me something of a binocular vision, and a chronic inability to give short answers to simple questions

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        The article doesn't deal well with 1 Thessalonians 14-15, particularly "They are displeasing to God and are opposed to all people…"

                        It's not a strong argument to say that "(a) the writers were themselves Jews,.."

                        But 1 Thessalonian 13-16 is generally regarded as an interpolation, on stylistic grounds and because Paul elsewhere attributes Jesus' execution to the "rulers of this age" [which could include the Sanhedrin, but does not exclude the Roman governor], and because it speaks of the persecution of Christians in Judea by Jews, which is hard to square with Pauline authorship, if he died in 67 AD.

                        All this from a shaky recollection of source criticism classes 30 years ago ... I will be happy to defer to anyone with a fresher and firmer grasp of the scholarship on that passage

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Sen McGlinn View Post
                          Only the first of your quotes is authentic Robrecht: the one from Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah.
                          Do you mean only the first is regarded as sacred Baha'i scripture, but the others are still genuine quotes? Or that the latter quotes are inauthentic in some way? Or something else perhaps?

                          Welcome to TWeb. It's great to have a real expert in the Baha'i faith around here. I've come across your name several times while trying to research and better understand some things Shuny has said about the Baha'i faith/philosophy. Apparently it is rather controversial to consider oneself a Baha'i theologian. Echoing the Universal House of Justice, Shuny has said that you 'claim some kind of authority comparable or competitive with the infallible International House of Justice'. A man after my own heart! Not that I claim such authority, nor do I suspect that you do either, but I do have some affection for heretics from all faiths.
                          Last edited by robrecht; 11-19-2014, 10:22 AM.
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            Do you mean only the first is regarded as sacred Baha'i scripture, but the others are still genuine quotes? Or that the latter quotes are inauthentic in some way? Or something else perhaps?

                            Welcome to TWeb. It's great to have a real expert in the Baha'i faith around here. I've come across your name several times while trying to research and better understand some things Shuny has said about the Baha'i faith/philosophy. Apparently it is rather controversial to consider oneself a Baha'i theologian. Echoing the Universal House of Justice, Shuny has said that you 'claim some kind of authority comparable or competitive with the infallible International House of Justice'. A man after my own heart! Not that I claim such authority, nor do I suspect that you do either, but I do have some affection for heretics from all faiths.
                            I went back and read more and I will still have to do some reading to clarify some things. It depends here what Sen calls scripture. It is true when others individual believers such as what are called 'Pilgrim;s Notes.' They may be genuine, but they are definitely secondary sources of individual observations and not scripture even when they quote Abdul'baha.

                            Sen McGlinn is possibly more knowledgeable in some areas of Baha'i scholarship, but be careful about describing someone as 'expert.' It is nice to have him here to provide more insight into the Baha'i Faith.
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-19-2014, 01:10 PM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              He is correct, only first quote is Baha'i scripture, and the others are written by individual believers such as what are called 'Pilgrim;s Notes.' They may be genuine, but they are definitely secondary sources of individual observations and not scripture.

                              Sen McGlinn is definitely more knowledgeable in some areas of Baha'i scholarship, but be careful about describing someone as 'expert.' It is nice to have him here to provide more insight into the Baha'i Faith.
                              Individual believers such as Abdu’l-Bahá, also known as ‘Abbás Effendí, the eldest son of Bahá'u'lláh.

                              By the way, Shuny, you never bothered to document your claim that Sen 'claimed some kind of authority comparable or competitive with the infallible International House of Justice'. Would you like to retract that perhaps?

                              Sorry if I offended anyone by referring to Sen as an expert!
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                                Individual believers such as Abdu’l-Bahá, also known as ‘Abbás Effendí, the eldest son of Bahá'u'lláh.

                                By the way, Shuny, you never bothered to document your claim that Sen 'claimed some kind of authority comparable or competitive with the infallible International House of Justice'. Would you like to retract that perhaps?

                                Sorry if I offended anyone by referring to Sen as an expert!
                                I never made such a claim of Sen. Caution citations from 'Pilgrims Notes' and others quoting Abdul'baha indirectly may not be considered scripture. I will have to do some home work on these citations, before I totally agree with Sen.

                                You have a habit of viewing the Baha'i Faith in the same way YECers view science your always looking for rabbits in Pre-Cambrian rocks.
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-19-2014, 01:11 PM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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