Originally posted by JohnnyP
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Shalom!
This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the world religion of Judaism in general and also its relationship to Christianity. This forum is generally for theists only. Non-theists (eg, atheistic Jews) may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.
Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
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The New Testament is Anti-Semitic
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIt is not an OT problem and it is not simply a human problem. It is definitely a problem in the NT, historically in Christianity and Islam. Citing OT texts about the conflicts of the ancients is meaningless. Specifically antisemitism is a more recent anti-Jewish hatred in Christianity and Islam.
Besides, verses like these in the NT warn Gentiles not to be hateful of Jews, so the fact remains that the NT isn't any more antisemitic than the OT which uses a lot harsher words for Jews strayed from God:
Thus again, that people like Luther have cherrypicked from the NT as an excuse for antisemitism isn't an NT problem, it's a human problem, this happens in all religions. It's simply more glaring with Christianity since it's had such power and control for centuries, and because it had more adherents than any other. If Christianity never came along and much of the Gentile world accepted the OT then you'd probably see many Gentiles twist the OT to say that Jews are evil harlots and Gentiles are God's chosen based on verses like Isaiah 11:10.
Heck Jews even accuse each other of being antisemites, where Ultra-Orthodox like Neturei Karta oppose Zionism and are accused of hating Jews, and the religious accuse secular Jews of trying to destroy Judaism.
And if we insist on blaming books, then we can argue the Vedas are responsible for antisemitism as well, especially since Nazi Aryanism and even the swastika came straight out of Hindu not Christian theologies:
So yeah, I don't see any valid basis for your argument, even though it is convenient to blame the NT.
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostGentiles and Jews have been hating on each other ever since Ishmael teased Isaac, religions with mostly Gentile adherents other than Christianity have come and gone and there's always been an excuse for hatred between the two, so it's naive to think that the NT is the root of it all.
Besides, verses like these in the NT warn Gentiles not to be hateful of Jews, so the fact remains that the NT isn't any more antisemitic than the OT which uses a lot harsher words for Jews strayed from God:
Thus again, that people like Luther have cherrypicked from the NT as an excuse for antisemitism isn't an NT problem, it's a human problem, this happens in all religions. It's simply more glaring with Christianity since it's had such power and control for centuries, and because it had more adherents than any other. If Christianity never came along and much of the Gentile world accepted the OT then you'd probably see many Gentiles twist the OT to say that Jews are evil harlots and Gentiles are God's chosen based on verses like Isaiah 11:10.
Heck Jews even accuse each other of being antisemites, where Ultra-Orthodox like Neturei Karta oppose Zionism and are accused of hating Jews, and the religious accuse secular Jews of trying to destroy Judaism.
And if we insist on blaming books, then we can argue the Vedas are responsible for antisemitism as well, especially since Nazi Aryanism and even the swastika came straight out of Hindu not Christian theologies:
So yeah, I don't see any valid basis for your argument, even though it is convenient to blame the NT.
The problems in the OT, Hinduism (Hinduism never actively slaughtered, and ethnic cleansed Jews) and Hitler bent cross, are not the issue. The problem is an intense history of antisemitism in Christianity up until recently based on the NT.Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-17-2014, 11:15 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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If the NT isn't necessarily antisemitic then I don't know what you meant by "the problem is in the NT."
No one denies Christianity was present, but since antisemitism has been an inherent problem among Gentiles ever since there were such a thing as Jews, then to place blame on whatever banner they happen to march under at any point in history -- whether it favors Osiris, Baal, or Apollo -- is largely a red herring. That one particular religion is dominant among Gentiles when antisemitism is apparent, if antisemitism has been a problem all along, isn't saying much about the religion. It is saying something about Gentiles who will twist whatever's popular into an excuse for antisemitism.
And Hindu ideas of Aryanism were most definitely adapted by Nazis to justify ethnic cleansing, repackaged along with Neopaganism into a state religion of Positive Christianity. To ignore the role of Hinduism and place all blame on Christianity is a double standard and factually inaccurate as well.
But like I said I'm not sure what your point is.
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostIf the NT isn't necessarily antisemitic then I don't know what you meant by "the problem is in the NT."
No one denies Christianity was present, but since antisemitism has been an inherent problem among Gentiles ever since there were such a thing as Jews, then to place blame on whatever banner they happen to march under at any point in history -- whether it favors Osiris, Baal, or Apollo -- is largely a red herring. That one particular religion is dominant among Gentiles when antisemitism is apparent, if antisemitism has been a problem all along, isn't saying much about the religion. It is saying something about Gentiles who will twist whatever's popular into an excuse for antisemitism.
And Hindu ideas of Aryanism were most definitely adapted by Nazis to justify ethnic cleansing, repackaged along with Neopaganism into a state religion of Positive Christianity. To ignore the role of Hinduism and place all blame on Christianity is a double standard and factually inaccurate as well.
Actually no, anti-Jewish has not been a problem in Hinduism and the OT. It is specifically related to citations in the NT that were interpreted throughout Christian history as anti-Jewish in the persecution, ethnic cleansing and the slaughter of Jews.
This clarifies the view that the NT is not necessarily anti-semitic.Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-17-2014, 04:17 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostLets change the term in the actual problem in Christian history as distinctly anti-Jewish persecution, ethnic cleansing and the slaughter of Jews in history from Constantine to the 20th century to the citations in the NT. Focusing on the subject more specifically avoides the higher fog index of what may be called anti-semitism in a broader vaguer context..
Actually no, anti-Jewish has not been a problem in Hinduism and the OT. It is specifically related to citations in the NT that were interpreted throughout Christian history as anti-Jewish in the persecution, ethnic cleansing and the slaughter of Jews.
This clarifies the view that the NT is not necessarily anti-semitic.
That still doesn't show that there's anything in the NT that's not said in the OT. I can twist stuff around too in order to make it sound like all Jews are damned and Gentiles are chosen:
Like I said, all that shows is that various Gentiles in history have cherrypicked the Bible to make it say what they want, it doesn't mean that the Bible is antisemitic or anti-Jewish.
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostI wouldn't say interpreted, manipulated is the more proper term. Nazis manipulated Hindu, Christian, and Neopagan theologies to form an Aryanist hybrid state religion against Jews.
That still doesn't show that there's anything in the NT that's not said in the OT. I can twist stuff around too in order to make it sound like all Jews are damned and Gentiles are chosen:
Like I said, all that shows is that various Gentiles in history have cherrypicked the Bible to make it say what they want, it doesn't mean that the Bible is antisemitic or anti-Jewish.Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-17-2014, 09:22 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIt shows that the history of Christianity is dominately anti-Jewish since Constantine based on the New Testament. The death of millions over the millennia is a witness to this and the documents of the Churches.
If antisemitism appeared out of nowhere with Christianity you may have a point, but it's been with Gentiles from Egyptians, Babylonians, Seleucids, Romans...this is a Gentile problem not a religious problem.
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostYou're still arguing that people can twist anything to suit their own agendas, sure, we agree. Like much anti-Jewishness of Nazis was based on twisting of Hindu concepts that had nothing to do with Christianity.
If antisemitism appeared out of nowhere with Christianity you may have a point, but it's been with Gentiles from Egyptians, Babylonians, Seleucids, Romans...this is a Gentile problem not a religious problem.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostHitler may have done this, but it is not the issue. You have hundreds of years of slaughter, ethnic cleansing, and persecution that have nothing to do with Hitler. Please read Martin Luther's Essay. Hitler followed it to the letter. Hitler could not have achieved what he did without the cooperation and involvement of the German people, who have a long history of anti-Jewish pogroms.
If you want to argue that Luther and Hitler saw themselves as Gentile Nebuchadnezzars doing God's work of punishing Jews as an idea they got from the OT I'd say that's possible, but nothing in the NT instructs Gentiles to act that way.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostBack again the problem is anti-Jewish, and not the broader foggier antisemitism. I already said, '. . . the NT is not necessarily antisemitic.' The problem specifically 'anti-Jewish.' You're ducking the real problem. AGAIN IT IS NOT ANTISEMITISM in the broader context. The references in the Bible are not antisemetic, they are 'anti-Jewish.'
And again I'm not ducking that many Christians have been antisemitic, but first Gentiles have been that way ever since there were Jews, second there's no basis to pin any significant blame on the NT for reasons stated.
If anything we've seen the OT inform Gentiles on treatment of Jews, much as the OT was used to justify slavery in recent centuries.
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostLuther cited NT and OT, he could have skipped the NT and cited OT verses like Jeremiah 3 calling Jews treacherous harlots. In fact it's the OT that calls for destruction of Jews by Gentile forces like Babylon, not the NT. The NT tells us to love and pray for enemies, be harmless as doves, and not arrogant against Jews as I cited from Romans 11.
If you want to argue that Luther and Hitler saw themselves as Gentile Nebuchadnezzars doing God's work of punishing Jews as an idea they got from the OT I'd say that's possible, but nothing in the NT instructs Gentiles to act that way.
Antisemitism can be against Jewishness for racial, cultural, or religious reasons. I'm not sure what the difference is unless you are just trying to say it's not against all Semites of the Middle East. Which of course we should all know that the modern usage is applied to Jews only.
And again I'm not ducking that many Christians have been antisemitic, but first Gentiles have been that way ever since there were Jews, second there's no basis to pin any significant blame on the NT for reasons stated.
If anything we've seen the OT inform Gentiles on treatment of Jews, much as the OT was used to justify slavery in recent centuries.
Yeah, justification of slaveryLast edited by shunyadragon; 11-18-2014, 12:19 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Shuny, is this an authentic Baha'i source?
"... The Jews suffered for 2,000 years for persecuting Christ, "The Son of God," for 3 years; the Moslems and the Arabs persecuted Bahá'u'lláh, "the Father," for 50 years, so they will suffer more and endure greater sufferings. ..."
http://bahai-library.com/brown_haifa_notesβλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostShuny, is this an authentic Baha'i source?
"... The Jews suffered for 2,000 years for persecuting Christ, "The Son of God," for 3 years; the Moslems and the Arabs persecuted Bahá'u'lláh, "the Father," for 50 years, so they will suffer more and endure greater sufferings. ..."
http://bahai-library.com/brown_haifa_notesGlendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI do not believe it is. Charles Manson broke away and does his own thing. I may check this out a little more.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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How about this, is it a valid Baha'i source?
"... ‘The hand of God,’ say the Jews, ‘is chained up.’ Chained up be their own hands; And for that which they have said, they were accursed. ..."
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-13.html.utf8?
Or this?
" ... What harm could come from a statement by the Jews that Jesus was also a Manifestation of the Word of God? Have the Christians suffered for their belief in Moses? Have they experienced any loss of religious enthusiasm or witnessed any defeat in their religious belief by declaring that Moses was a Prophet of God, that the Torah was a Book of God and that all the prophets of Israel were prophets of God? It is evident that no loss comes from this. And now it is time for the Jews to declare that Christ was the Word of God, and then this enmity between two great religions will pass away. For two thousand years this enmity and religious prejudice have continued. Blood has been shed, ordeals have been suffered. These few words will remedy the difficulty and unite two great religions. What harm could follow this: that just as the Christians glorify and praise the name of Moses, likewise the Jews should commemorate the name of Christ, declare Him to be the Word of God and consider Him as one of the chosen Messengers of God?"
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/P...120.html.utf8?
Or this?
Through failing to understand the meaning of the prophecies about the dominion of the Messiah, the Jews rejected Christ. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá says:—
The Jews still await the coming of the Messiah, and pray to God day and night to hasten His advent. When Jesus came they denounced and slew Him, saying: “This is not the One for Whom we wait. ..."
Thus the Jews thought and spoke, for they did not understand the Scriptures nor the glorious truths that were contained in them. The letter they knew by heart, but of the life-giving Spirit they understood not a word.
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/o/BN...170.html.utf8?
Or this?
The greatest cause of bereavement and disheartening in the world of humanity is ignorance based upon blind imitation. It is due to this that wars and battles prevail; from this cause hatred and animosity arise continually among mankind. Through failure to investigate reality the Jews rejected His Holiness Jesus Christ. They were expecting his coming; by day and night they mourned and lamented, saying, “O God! hasten thou the day of the advent of Christ,” expressing most intense longing for the Messiah but when His Holiness Christ appeared they denied and rejected him, treated him with arrogant contempt, sentenced him to death and finally crucified him. Why did this happen? Because they were blindly following imitations, believing that which had descended to them as a heritage from their fathers and ancestors; tenaciously holding to it and refusing to investigate the reality of Christ. Therefore they were deprived of the bounties of His Holiness whereas if they had forsaken imitations and investigated the reality of the Messiah they would have surely been guided to believing in him.
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/FWU/fwu-22.html.utf8?
Or this?
This was realized when peoples of all religions, nationalities and dispositions became united in their beliefs and followed Christ in humility, associating in love and brotherhood under the shadow of his divine protection. The Jews, being blind to this and holding to their bigoted imitations, were insolent and arrogant toward His Holiness and crucified him. Had they investigated the reality of Christ they would have beheld his beauty and truth.
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/FWU/fwu-22.html.utf8?
Or this perhaps?
Consider the symbolical meanings of the Words and teachings of Christ. He said, “I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever.” When the Jews heard this, they took it literally and failed to understand the significance of His meaning and teaching. The spiritual truth which Christ wished to convey to them was that the reality of Divinity within Him was like a blessing which had come down from heaven and that he who partook of this blessing should never die. That is to say, bread was the symbol of the perfections which had descended upon Him from God, and he who ate of this bread, or endowed himself with the perfections of Christ, would undoubtedly attain to everlasting life. The Jews did not understand Him, and taking the words literally, said, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Had they understood the real meaning of the Holy Book, they would have become believers in Christ. ... Most of the Jews had memorized the texts of the Old Testament and repeated them night and day, but inasmuch as they were ignorant of the meanings, they were deprived of the bounties of Christ.
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/P...136.html.utf8?βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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