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Messiah

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  • Messiah

    I don't know if we have any Jews here but I am curious as to what you think the arrival of the messiah will look like and why you don't believe Jesus is the messiah. I am also curious as to what you believe the purpose of the messiah is.

  • #2
    I think we mainly had one practicing Jew, but I don't think he's shown back up yet.

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar.../10729-messiah
    "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

    Comment


    • #3
      Just to fill in the blanks in the meantime, as a Christian and not authoritative of Judaism but simply bringing up another point of view I know about, some Jews feel obligated to either act as Messiah, or to help bring Messiah, the idea of Tikkun Olam. Which is all about making the world better and not letting it rot with starvation, war, pollution, etc. until God/Messiah comes to rescue it and make it all perfect.

      I think in some ways it is a very noble position filled with charity, even though as a Christian I may not agree with them that Jesus is not Messiah.

      Comment


      • #4
        There were many Jews who were Christians early in the history of Christianity, but when Christianity became Roman, and the Roman theology of the Trinity became the Doctrine of the church, few Jews remained in Christianity. The debate between William Lane Craig and Rabbi Tovia Singer, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmmNn6AHFfM. This debate illustrates the problem of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Craig argues from the perspective of the NT only Rabbi Singer argues from the perspective of the Torah, neither the twain shall meet.

        At present the debates between Rabbis and Dr. Brown illustrate the Jewish view today concerning the objection to Jesus Christ being the Messiah. http://realmessiah.com/debate
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          There were many Jews who were Christians early in the history of Christianity, but when Christianity became Roman, and the Roman theology of the Trinity became the Doctrine of the church, few Jews remained in Christianity. The debate between William Lane Craig and Rabbi Tovia Singer, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmmNn6AHFfM. This debate illustrates the problem of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Craig argues from the perspective of the NT only Rabbi Singer argues from the perspective of the Torah, neither the twain shall meet.

          At present the debates between Rabbis and Dr. Brown illustrate the Jewish view today concerning the objection to Jesus Christ being the Messiah. http://realmessiah.com/debate


          There's just no point in even responding to you anymore is there?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            There were many Jews who were Christians early in the history of Christianity, but when Christianity became Roman, and the Roman theology of the Trinity became the Doctrine of the church, few Jews remained in Christianity.
            what
            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              There were many Jews who were Christians early in the history of Christianity, but when Christianity became Roman, and the Roman theology of the Trinity became the Doctrine of the church, few Jews remained in Christianity. The debate between William Lane Craig and Rabbi Tovia Singer, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmmNn6AHFfM. This debate illustrates the problem of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Craig argues from the perspective of the NT only Rabbi Singer argues from the perspective of the Torah, neither the twain shall meet.

              At present the debates between Rabbis and Dr. Brown illustrate the Jewish view today concerning the objection to Jesus Christ being the Messiah. http://realmessiah.com/debate
              Something I don't see much of in these debates is mention of the following issue in modern Judaism:

              However, some Hasidim believe in a somewhat similar concept. Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, a prominent Hasidic leader, said that the Rebbe is God's essence itself put into a body of a Tzaddik.[9] While many other Jews find this idea highly controversial, panentheism, i.e. considering everything and everyone as manifestations of God, is the accepted mainstream Hasidic and Kabbalistic doctrine. -Wiki:Incarnation
              Does that mean the Rebbe is infinite omnipotent and omniscient? "Yes of course," an Argentine student says in Hebrew. "God chose to imbue this world with life through a body. So that's how we know the Rebbe can't have died, and that his actual physical body must be alive. The Rebbe is the conjunction of God and human. The Rebbe is God, but he is also physical." -The Lubavitcher Rebbe as a god

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                Something I don't see much of in these debates is mention of the following issue in modern Judaism:
                Because it is movement in modern Judaism, and not Judaism.

                "However, some Hasidim believe in a somewhat similar concept. Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, a prominent Hasidic leader, said that the Rebbe is God's essence itself put into a body of a Tzaddik.[9] While many other Jews find this idea highly controversial, panentheism, i.e. considering everything and everyone as manifestations of God, is the accepted mainstream Hasidic and Kabbalistic doctrine. -Wiki:Incarnation "

                This is not a parallel claim as the traditional claim of Christians for Jesus Christ, as the incarnate Son of God in the Trinitarian concept of God.

                " Does that mean the Rebbe is infinite omnipotent and omniscient? "Yes of course," an Argentine student says in Hebrew. "God chose to imbue this world with life through a body. So that's how we know the Rebbe can't have died, and that his actual physical body must be alive. The Rebbe is the conjunction of God and human. The Rebbe is God, but he is also physical." -The Lubavitcher Rebbe as a god "

                This view is part of the Chabad movement in Judaism, and I am not sure this 'student' got it right. This title Rebbe is not really the Messiah, but the purpose of the movement is to bring about the Messianic Age. IT was a title for Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, as above described as a god (small 'g'). Based on all I have read, this is not a parallel belief to the Messiah, nor the traditional claim of Christianity concerning Jesus Christ. The Chabad is a fairly modern movement within Judaism, and not Judaism.

                "Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson (1902–1994),[34] son-in-law of Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak, and a great-grandson of the third Rebbe of Lubavitch, assumed the title of rebbe one year after his father-in-law's death. Rabbi Menachem Mendel greatly expanded Chabad's global network, establishing hundreds of new Chabad centers across the globe. He published many of his own works as well as the works of his predecessors. Rabbi Menachem Mendel's teachings are studied regularly by followers of Chabad. He is commonly referred to as "the Lubavitcher Rebbe", or simply "the Rebbe". Even after his death, he is revered as the leader of the Chabad movement.[28]"
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Because it is movement in modern Judaism, and not Judaism.
                  Is there a difference? Any Judaism still practiced today is modern Judaism. Discussion of modern Judaism is relevant for today, of course.

                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  This is not a parallel claim as the traditional claim of Christians for Jesus Christ, as the incarnate Son of God in the Trinitarian concept of God.
                  If considered that for some Jews, the Father is the male aspect, Shekinah the female aspect, and the Rebbe the human aspect, it kinda is.

                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  This view is part of the Chabad movement in Judaism, and I am not sure this 'student' got it right. This title Rebbe is not really the Messiah, but the purpose of the movement is to bring about the Messianic Age. IT was a title for Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, as above described as a god (small 'g'). Based on all I have read, this is not a parallel belief to the Messiah, nor the traditional claim of Christianity concerning Jesus Christ. The Chabad is a fairly modern movement within Judaism, and not Judaism.
                  He is described as big "G" -- "The Rebbe is the conjunction of God and human. The Rebbe is God, but he is also physical." I don't know what you mean about getting it right, it's well-known that many Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is both Messiah and God, regardless of his title, what he thought about it himself, etc.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                    Is there a difference? Any Judaism still practiced today is modern Judaism. Discussion of modern Judaism is relevant for today, of course.
                    There is a difference when sects of a religion make different claims. Still by and large still in line with modern Judaism. No claim is made that he is dig 'G' God.

                    If considered that for some Jews, the Father is the male aspect, Shekinah the female aspect, and the Rebbe the human aspect, it kinda is.
                    Kinda is . . . what? I know of no reference that the claim is big 'G' God. 'a god' is not big 'G' incarnate God.

                    He is described as big "G" -- "The Rebbe is the conjunction of God and human. The Rebbe is God, but he is also physical." I don't know what you mean about getting it right, it's well-known that many Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is both Messiah and God, regardless of his title, what he thought about it himself, etc.
                    All references I have seen remain small 'g' god, as in 'a god.' I belief the references to himself remain all small 'g.' Please site a reference where he thought himself big 'G' incarnate God. This belief has never been accused of be heretical in Judaism. If the claim was big 'G' incarnate God it would be accused of heresy.
                    Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-25-2014, 04:33 PM.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      There is a difference when sects of a religion make different claims. Still by and large still in line with modern Judaism. No claim is made that he is dig 'G' God.

                      Kinda is . . . what? I know of no reference that the claim is big 'G' God. 'a god' is not big 'G' incarnate God.

                      All references I have seen remain small 'g' god, as in 'a god.'
                      Third time posting, have you not seen it?
                      The Rebbe is the conjunction of God and human. The Rebbe is God, but he is also physical. -The Lubavitcher Rebbe as a god

                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      I belief the references to himself remain all small 'g.' Please site a reference where he thought himself big 'G' incarnate God.
                      It's easy to see why some of his comments are misunderstood, if in fact he was not claiming incarnation, posted again:
                      Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, a prominent Hasidic leader, said that the Rebbe is God's essence itself put into a body of a Tzaddik. -Wiki:Incarnation

                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      This belief has never been accused of be heretical in Judaism. If the claim was big 'G' incarnate God it would be accused of heresy.
                      There's no shortage of Jews who accuse such Lubavitchers of heresy, have you not ever researched it?

                      The first time a dead messiah with semi-divinity was adored by Jews, rabbis went to great lengths to distance normative Jews from what the rabbis clearly considered heresy.

                      That is what must happen now. We have no other halakhic or theological choice because we have a clear historical and legal precedent to follow and no opposing opinions to call on. -Failed Messiah
                      If you want to keep denying that the Rebbe is never referred to as God/big G, other Jews have charged such followers with heresy, etc. that's your choice I guess, though I find it odd that you go to such lengths denying obvious facts.

                      Anyway I just brought it up as a curiosity that it's not questioned more in debates, and that's about all I have to say on the subject.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                        Third time posting, have you not seen it?



                        It's easy to see why some of his comments are misunderstood, if in fact he was not claiming incarnation, posted again:



                        There's no shortage of Jews who accuse such Lubavitchers of heresy, have you not ever researched it?



                        If you want to keep denying that the Rebbe is never referred to as God/big G, other Jews have charged such followers with heresy, etc. that's your choice I guess, though I find it odd that you go to such lengths denying obvious facts.

                        Anyway I just brought it up as a curiosity that it's not questioned more in debates, and that's about all I have to say on the subject.
                        I have researched these references, and No, it is not clear nor likely that Rebbe is God, as traditional Christians claim for the station of Christ. It is more in context that Rebbe is a god in the Jewish context.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          I have researched these references, and No, it is not clear nor likely that Rebbe is God, as traditional Christians claim for the station of Christ. It is more in context that Rebbe is a god in the Jewish context.
                          Obviously they don't see God as Christian Trinity. But from the article posted, "the Rebbe is God, but he is also physical" approximates the idea of incarnation. I guess you can keep asserting it doesn't if you want, but an accompanying explanation of how it doesn't would be helpful.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                            Obviously they don't see God as Christian Trinity. But from the article posted, "the Rebbe is God, but he is also physical" approximates the idea of incarnation. I guess you can keep asserting it doesn't if you want, but an accompanying explanation of how it doesn't would be helpful.
                            From your source: 'Rebbe is a god.'
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              From your source: 'Rebbe is a god.'
                              Where in the article does it explain how the idea that "the Rebbe is God, but he is also physical" is not similar to the function of incarnation? You keep saying it isn't without supporting your assertion with any evidence.

                              Comment

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