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Jesus was not the messiah

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
    I will take a look at it when I am able.

    i study his writings as a matter of studying Jewish law indepenedent of my studies in the university level. I am within a stream call the Talmidei HaRambam which means that I hold to the Rambam when it comes to halacha. There are problems that arise but that is a long discussion that I am not willing to discuss with non-Jews. no offense but its an internal matter. lol

    As far as where I study I would like to keep that private. I have had situation previously where I revealed where I studied and there were threats to contact my professors and otherwise harass me when I opposed what certain Countermissionaries were saying.

    Shalom,

    Avraham Ibn Ezra
    Sorry, I didn't mean to pry.

    שלום

    robrecht
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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    • #17
      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
      Actually, Messiah means 'anointed', not king. Kings were anointed, but so were priests and even some of the prophets.



      robrecht


      Yes that's correct - Messiah does mean "anointed" and also a prophet can be anointed, like you said, as well as, priests. However, the question is "who" or "what" prophet will testify and declare the messiah to the people and before the Sanhedrin (the great). Also, the main responsibilities for what the Messiah will do has always been a debate. Most of the criteria on the messiah date back to Samuel, as a Judge and a prophet - (and some sources indicate a priest - For the Deuteronomistic Historians, Samuel was extension of Moses and continuing Moses’ function as a prophet, judge, and a priest which made historical Samuel uncertain). So there were "no" specifics outlines to all this.

      So how will the Messiah be identified - that's what the future prophet will decide.....(6 Then Samuel said to the people, “It is the Lord who appointed Moses and Aaron and brought your ancestors up out of Egypt. 7 Now then, stand here, because I am going to confront you with evidence before the Lord as to all the righteous acts performed by the Lord for you and your ancestors. Another example: It was Samuel who chose Saul and David - 6 The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person. 7 Once these signs are fulfilled, do whatever your hand finds to do, for God is with you.). Also, when identified, the messiah, and as he becomes anointed, will have (and accordingly) changed into a different person. Also, in the same gesture, God, when the twelve tribes return, they will be given a "new" heart... Jeremiah 24:7 "6'For I will set My eyes on them for good, and I will bring them again to this land; and I will build them up and not overthrow them, and I will plant them and not pluck them up. 7'I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the LORD; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart."

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Trekkie View Post
        Let's face it, the guy wasn't even *a* messiah (i.e. a king), never mind *THE* messiah. That right there debunks the entire Christian religion. Jesus was a carpenter. At no point was he ever a king.

        See you all in synagogue next week.
        If modern Judaism were the only answer, it would have succeeded by now.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
          Actually, Messiah means 'anointed', not king. Kings were anointed, but so were priests and even some of the prophets.
          The messiah foreseen by the prophets would be a king. Jesus was not a king, he was a peasant, so he could not have been the king in question. Try again.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Considering he's gone nearly two months without responding, I'm guessing it was just a drive-by.
            Yes, well, past experience with the Christians on this forum suggested to me that nobody would come up with an intelligible counter-response, and months later I see I was not mistaken.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Trekkie View Post
              The messiah foreseen by the prophets would be a king. Jesus was not a king, he was a peasant, so he could not have been the king in question. Try again.
              Why did you ignore the rest of my response? Just because I corrected your Hebrew? It would be a much more interesting discussion if you tried to answer my questions. Contemporary expectations of one or more expected Messias were not only of a king as evidenced by the Dead Sea scrolls. A royal Messiah was certainly one of those and most early Christians did understand Jesus to have been a royal Messiah, 'though some may not have. Some historians would also explain Jesus' crucifixion as the result of a messianic claim, either by Jesus himself or of his followers or opponents.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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              • #22
                He's just trolling, Rob. But give it a shot - he did come back so maybe there is some hope for him.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Trekkie View Post
                  The messiah foreseen by the prophets would be a king. Jesus was not a king, he was a peasant, so he could not have been the king in question. Try again.
                  But he won't be king of Israel like the priest messiah? Just curious.

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                  • #24
                    David was a shepherd. Becoming king in the earthly sense isn't always hereditary.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      David was a shepherd. Becoming king in the earthly sense isn't always hereditary.
                      After David, it is. G-d established the throne of his kingdom forever.
                      אברהם אבן עזרא

                      Avraham Ibn Ezra

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                      • #26
                        After David, it is. G-d established the throne of his kingdom forever.
                        It didn't last beyond the Israel's last days. really...?
                        Last edited by Omniskeptical; 05-28-2014, 03:36 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
                          It didn't last beyond Israel's last days. really...?
                          The problem is that the physical kingdom מלכות didn't last. The throne of the kingdom כסא מלכות was the promise forever. See 2 Samuel 7:13 where the Hebrew literally says וכננתי את כסא ממלכתו עד עולם " I shall establish the throne of his kingdom forever and ever." Only the physical realm was conditional and did not last. The reference to the Throne of the kingdom is a euphemism in Hebrew for rulership in Hebrew poetics.
                          Last edited by Avraham Ibn Ezra; 05-28-2014, 03:39 PM.
                          אברהם אבן עזרא

                          Avraham Ibn Ezra

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
                            After David, it is. G-d established the throne of his kingdom forever.
                            1) That doesn't matter - Jesus was a descendant of David's.

                            2) I was answering his specific issue - which was Jesus' career path which is a non-issue for human succession.
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                              1) That doesn't matter - Jesus was a descendant of David's.
                              So were a lot of people in the first century.

                              2) I was answering his specific issue - which was Jesus' career path which is a non-issue for human succession.
                              That particular argument made by Trekkie isn't a strong argument. It is perhaps the worst I have ever heard. Like you said a chosen profession does not disqualify a person from being king. Other things do that are more important.
                              אברהם אבן עזרא

                              Avraham Ibn Ezra

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
                                So were a lot of people in the first century.
                                Undoubtedly, but it answers your objection.


                                Originally posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra
                                That particular argument made by Trekkie isn't a strong argument. It is perhaps the worst I have ever heard. Like you said a chosen profession does not disqualify a person from being king. Other things do that are more important.
                                Hang around a while - you'll see worse arguments.
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Quill Sword

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