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Jesus was not the messiah

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  • Jesus was not the messiah

    Let's face it, the guy wasn't even *a* messiah (i.e. a king), never mind *THE* messiah. That right there debunks the entire Christian religion. Jesus was a carpenter. At no point was he ever a king.

    See you all in synagogue next week.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Trekkie View Post
    Messiah means king. There will not be an "arrival" of the messiah. He will be born and grow up like any other human. The messianic era will be a golden age characterised by world peace, universal knowledge of God, the return of Jews to the land of Israel, and the re-building of the Temple in Jerusalem. When we say "messiah", we refer to the king who will reign during that golden age. He may not be personally responsible for all these things but they are the key features of his reign. Jesus wasn't the messiah because he wasn't even a messiah (king) -- he was a carpenter.
    Originally posted by Trekkie View Post
    Let's face it, the guy wasn't even *a* messiah (i.e. a king), never mind *THE* messiah. That right there debunks the entire Christian religion. Jesus was a carpenter. At no point was he ever a king.

    See you all in synagogue next week.
    Actually, Messiah means 'anointed', not king. Kings were anointed, but so were priests and even some of the prophets.

    What are your earliest sources for your view of the messiah and the messianic age? Texts from the Jewish scriptures? Which ones, especially? Have you studied the 'messianic' expectations of the Jews at Qumran? The so-called intertestamental literature? The Talmud? Other sources? I'm not challenging you, just curious from where you've derived your views. It would nice to hear your perspective. It seems clear enough that the Jesus certainly did not meet the expectations of at least some of his followers and contemporaries, but we really know so little of the scope and range of messianic expectations at that time.

    שלום

    robrecht
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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    • #3
      So if jesus wasn't "king" because he was a carpenter, where does that leave David? He didn't start off as a "king".
      "Kahahaha! Let's get lunatic!"-Add LP
      "And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin is pride that apes humility"-Samuel Taylor Coleridge
      Oh ye of little fiber. Do you not know what I've done for you? You will obey. ~Cerealman for Prez.

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      • #4
        Actually, it's not all that clear that Jesus was a carpenter to begin with...

        http://facultyblog.eternitybiblecoll...s-a-carpenter/
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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        • #5
          From the Jewish view, Jesus was, of course, not a messiah, nor fulfilled any of the scriptures. There were some Jews (maybe ~1000) that believed he was the messiah in the first ~100 years, but by the time Christianity became the state religion of Rome, and became a Pauline Hellenistic religion coming out of Hellenistic Judaism. The only Christian Jews remaining were small sects and a few families in the Middle East.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cerealman View Post
            So if jesus wasn't "king" because he was a carpenter, where does that leave David? He didn't start off as a "king".
            The references are sufficient and considering the tradition of the time it was most likely that Jesus learned the trade of carpentry from his father.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              The references are sufficient and considering the tradition of the time it was most likely that Jesus learned the trade of carpentry from his father.
              That doesn't change that some people who became king didn't started off as/a king, does it?
              "Kahahaha! Let's get lunatic!"-Add LP
              "And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin is pride that apes humility"-Samuel Taylor Coleridge
              Oh ye of little fiber. Do you not know what I've done for you? You will obey. ~Cerealman for Prez.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cerealman View Post
                That doesn't change that some people who became king didn't started off as/a king, does it?
                My only consideration as to this issue as to whether Jesus was a Carpenter. I am a descendent of the Royal House of the Merovingians like robercht, and could be crowned King of the Franks, and I am also a carpenter at present, though at different times I was a geologist, soil scientist, Professional Paramedic, Poet, artist, and gardener/farmer.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cerealman View Post
                  That doesn't change that some people who became king didn't started off as/a king, does it?
                  His apostolic successors Ruled Rome, and believed Him God incarnate, and their King.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Trekkie View Post
                    Let's face it, the guy wasn't even *a* messiah (i.e. a king), never mind *THE* messiah. That right there debunks the entire Christian religion. Jesus was a carpenter. At no point was he ever a king.

                    See you all in synagogue next week.
                    He swings. He misses.

                    Rob already answered this. It'll be interesting to see if you are serious enough to answer him or are just trolling.

                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      He swings. He misses.

                      Rob already answered this. It'll be interesting to see if you are serious enough to answer him or are just trolling.
                      Considering he's gone nearly two months without responding, I'm guessing it was just a drive-by.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        Considering he's gone nearly two months without responding, I'm guessing it was just a drive-by.
                        I really should look at the date occasionally...

                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                          Actually, Messiah means 'anointed', not king. Kings were anointed, but so were priests and even some of the prophets.

                          What are your earliest sources for your view of the messiah and the messianic age? Texts from the Jewish scriptures? Which ones, especially? Have you studied the 'messianic' expectations of the Jews at Qumran? The so-called intertestamental literature? The Talmud? Other sources? I'm not challenging you, just curious from where you've derived your views. It would nice to hear your perspective. It seems clear enough that the Jesus certainly did not meet the expectations of at least some of his followers and contemporaries, but we really know so little of the scope and range of messianic expectations at that time.

                          שלום

                          robrecht
                          Most of us Orthodox Jews take the view that Maimonides expressed in Hilchot Melachim u’Milchmoteichem Perek 11 in the Mishneh Torah in regards to what the Mashiach will be and do. This chapter also lists what the Mashiach will not be and do as well. This view of Maimonides is a summation of what is contained in the Oral law which, as you should know, that Orthodox Judaism is not sola scriptura and strict arguments from the Tanakh are seen as a moot point typically because we don’t operate from the text of the Tanakh alone. You may score points with Karaites with Tanakh only arguments, if you understand the Kalam method of interpretation, but not with Orthodox Jews.

                          As for the DSS and their views, I have read many of them for my Degree as well as my Master’s in NELC that I am currently working on. The issue is that we, in my degree, are looking for grammatical, linguistic, and narrative value primarily as opposed to theological viewpoints in the study of these texts. I can’t say for certain about DSS views without reading them more carefully and making an informed conclusion. If you have a list of texts that you are referring to I would be more than happy to take a look.

                          Shalom,

                          Avraham Ibn Ezra
                          אברהם אבן עזרא

                          Avraham Ibn Ezra

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
                            Most of us Orthodox Jews take the view that Maimonides expressed in Hilchot Melachim u’Milchmoteichem Perek 11 in the Mishneh Torah in regards to what the Mashiach will be and do. This chapter also lists what the Mashiach will not be and do as well. This view of Maimonides is a summation of what is contained in the Oral law which, as you should know, that Orthodox Judaism is not sola scriptura and strict arguments from the Tanakh are seen as a moot point typically because we don’t operate from the text of the Tanakh alone. You may score points with Karaites with Tanakh only arguments, if you understand the Kalam method of interpretation, but not with Orthodox Jews.

                            As for the DSS and their views, I have read many of them for my Degree as well as my Master’s in NELC that I am currently working on. The issue is that we, in my degree, are looking for grammatical, linguistic, and narrative value primarily as opposed to theological viewpoints in the study of these texts. I can’t say for certain about DSS views without reading them more carefully and making an informed conclusion. If you have a list of texts that you are referring to I would be more than happy to take a look.

                            Shalom,

                            Avraham Ibn Ezra
                            Hi, Avraham!

                            I am no expert in the Dead Sea Scrolls, but we did translate some in Hebrew class in order to gain some facility in ancient consonantal texts. Probably the most interesting text to look at first would be 4Q521.

                            With respect to RaMBaM, do you study his writings from a historico-critical perspective? Where are you studying, by the way?

                            Don't worry, I was not trying to construct a sola scriptura argument, or any argument at all, for that matter, just hoping to learn more about Judaism.
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                              Hi, Avraham!

                              I am no expert in the Dead Sea Scrolls, but we did translate some in Hebrew class in order to gain some facility in ancient consonantal texts. Probably the most interesting text to look at first would be 4Q521.

                              With respect to RaMBaM, do you study his writings from a historico-critical perspective? Where are you studying, by the way?

                              Don't worry, I was not trying to construct a sola scriptura argument, or any argument at all, for that matter, just hoping to learn more about Judaism.
                              I will take a look at it when I am able.

                              i study his writings as a matter of studying Jewish law indepenedent of my studies in the university level. I am within a stream call the Talmidei HaRambam which means that I hold to the Rambam when it comes to halacha. There are problems that arise but that is a long discussion that I am not willing to discuss with non-Jews. no offense but its an internal matter. lol

                              As far as where I study I would like to keep that private. I have had situation previously where I revealed where I studied and there were threats to contact my professors and otherwise harass me when I opposed what certain Countermissionaries were saying.

                              Shalom,

                              Avraham Ibn Ezra
                              אברהם אבן עזרא

                              Avraham Ibn Ezra

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