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On what Jewish date was that?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
    Let me make sure I have got everything straight now. Suppose the sun set at 6PM as we moderns reckon time. Then 7PM would be an evening time according to the Jews' time-reckoning.
    It has been my understanding the Jewish reckoning days from sunset to sunset. But the hours of a "day" [day light hours] begin with sunrise. So in Jewish reckoning the 6 hour is about noon. [John's account uses Roman reckoning - Though there are those who suppose otherwise. See NASB notes. Like John 19:14.]

    http://www.aish.com/jl/hol/o/48944546.html

    http://www.iahushua.com/ST-RP/twt.htm

    Originally posted by Faber View Post
    It's a little more complicated. For example, the evening tamid sacrifice took place around 3:00 PM. In a sense, the evening is when the sun was going down, which included late afternoon.

    The daytime was divided into twelve hours, regardless of how long the day was. So we're talking mid-afternoon.

    But in another sense, terms like Exodus 12:6, "in the evening" (KJV) or "at twilight" (NASB) are translations of "beyn ha'arbayim", literally "between the evenings." This is interpreted to mean between the actual sunset and the point where there is no longer any light in the sky.
    In the modern Jewish translation "between the evenings" is now rendered "afternoon." "Between the evenings" being understood between "noon" and "sunset."

    ". . . And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon. . . ." -- Exodus 12:6.
    http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873
    Last edited by 37818; 03-28-2016, 08:58 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      In the modern Jewish translation "between the evenings" is now rendered "afternoon." "Between the evenings" being understood between "noon" and "sunset."

      ". . . And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon. . . ." -- Exodus 12:6.
      http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873
      That would make sense.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Faber View Post
        It's a little more complicated. For example, the evening tamid sacrifice took place around 3:00 PM. In a sense, the evening is when the sun was going down, which included late afternoon.

        The daytime was divided into twelve hours, regardless of how long the day was. So we're talking mid-afternoon.

        But in another sense, terms like Exodus 12:6, "in the evening" (KJV) or "at twilight" (NASB) are translations of "beyn ha'arbayim", literally "between the evenings." This is interpreted to mean between the actual sunset and the point where there is no longer any light in the sky.
        I thought it was said, at some point, that this could have been a Jubilee year? Textual and practical considerations


        other articles:

        Are there any efforts to bring the two Easters together? - World Council of Churches
        Easter controversy -Modern calls for a reform of the date of Easter
        Eve of Passover on Shabbat


        Special notes: The sacrificial animal - Passover sacrifice

        The sacrificial animal, which was either a lamb or goat, was necessarily a male, one year old, and without blemish. Each family or society offered one animal together, which did not require the "semikah" (laying on of hands), although it was obligatory to determine who were to take part in the sacrifice that the killing might take place with the proper intentions. Only those who were circumcised and clean before the Law might participate, and they were forbidden to have leavened food in their possession during the act of killing the paschal lamb. The animal was slain on the eve of the Passover, on the afternoon of the 14th of Abib,[2] after the Tamid sacrifice had been killed, i.e., at three o'clock, or, in case the eve of the Passover fell on Friday, at two.[3]

        noting also - Jubilee Bible 2000:
        "On the fourteenth of the first month between the two evenings is the LORD's passover." Leviticus 23:5


        Zmanim (Hebrew: זְמַנִּים‎, literally "times", singular zman) are the specific times of the day with applications in Jewish law.

        In Jewish law, a calendar day is defined as running from "evening" to "evening." This is based on the repetition of the phrase "... and there was evening, and there was morning ..."—evening preceding morning—in the account of creation in Genesis.[1]
        Additionally, Jewish law requires certain activities to be undertaken "during the day"—or at a certain time during the day—while other activities are to be undertaken "at night"—or at a certain time during the night.

        For either purpose, the status of the twilight hours just after sunset or just before sunrise is ambiguous. Judaism provides its own definitions for this period; at the same time, various rabbinic authorities differ on just how those definitions are to be applied for different purposes.

        Comment


        • #19
          The practice, as recorded in the Mishnah (Pes. 9:5), is that only Pesaḥ Miẓrayim ("Passover of Egypt") required the setting aside of the lamb four days before the festival, the sprinkling of the blood on lintel and doorposts, and that the lamb be eaten in "haste." The Mishnah (Pes. 10:5) explains the commands of the lamb sacrifice and the eating of *matzah ("unleavened bread") and maror ("bitter herbs") as follows: the lamb is offered because God "passed over" (pasaḥ); the unleavened bread is eaten because God redeemed the Israelites from Egypt (Ex. 12:39); and the bitter herbs, because the Egyptians embittered their lives (Ex. 1:14).
          Passover sacrifice
          and now read this:

          The sacrifice which the Israelites offered at the command of God during the night before the Exodus from Egypt, and which they ate with special ceremonies according to divine direction. The blood of this sacrifice sprinkled on the door-posts of the Israelites was to be a sign to the angel of death, when passing through the land to slay the first-born of the Egyptians that night, that he should pass by the houses of the Israelites (Ex. xii. 1-23). This is called in the Mishnah the "Egyptian Passover sacrifice" ("Pesaḥ Miẓrayim"; Pes. ix. 5). It was ordained, furthermore (Ex. xii. 24-27), that this observance should be repeated annually for all time. This so-called "Pesaḥ Dorot," the Passover of succeeding generations (Pes. l.c.), differs in many respects from the Pesaḥ Miẓrayim. Passover


          So the lamb was prepared four days prior - and was eaten in haste? Pesaḥ Miẓrayim. However, the observance is called, "Pesah Dorot"? Correct?
          Last edited by Marta; 04-06-2016, 08:30 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
            Confusing. Don't you mean sundown? The word "evening" is a span of time, not a moment, right?
            Sundown is not the point.

            In clear weather two stars have to be visible (can be planets rather than fixed stars).

            Obviously, that is a thing you notice when it has gone on some time, a few minutes or more. Usually.
            http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

            Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              If Mark 14:12 was on the 14h of Nisan that would mean Jesus and his disciples eat the Passover in the evening of the 15th of Nisan (Mark 14:16-18). Thus making the day of His crucifixion on the 15th.
              Originally posted by Faber View Post
              What's confusing to Bible Scholars is that Jesus and the disciples held their seder at least one day before the Jewish leaders did. Possibly as early as Tuesday evening after sunset (Which would be Wednesday, 12 Nisan). Some groups, including the Essenes and those adhering to the Jubilee calendar, always celebrated the Passover feast Tuesday evening/Wednesday morning every year. It probably helped alleviate the crowds on the day of the Passover sacrifices.
              I'd rather go with Christ observing Nisan new moon one evening before Temple did or admitted to doing so.

              If He had been in Judea, he would have been obliged to observe beginning of Nisan when Temple admitted the new moon and signalled it by beacons. You know, high beacons of fire, visible a long way, you light one as soon as you see next one.

              But he arrived one week or so into Nisan to Bethany (Saturday) and Jerusalem (Sunday).

              That means that he had been in Galilee and passed through probably Samaria, where Samarians were obviously not lighting beacons signalled by the Jewish temple. So Christ went by His own sighting rather than the Jewish Temple.

              Since Hillel II, Jewish calendar has been so to speak fixed in advance, but back then when the Temple was standing, it was by agricultural and astronomic observation.

              First, agricultural late in Adar/First Adar, to decide whether next month is Nisan or Second Adar and Nisan only after that.

              Second, each new month begins with a sighted new moon.

              The sighting of New Moon can obviously imply a divergence of when a Holy Month begins, as is still seen some years about new moon of Ramadan.
              http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

              Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by hansgeorg View Post
                I'd rather go with Christ observing Nisan new moon one evening before Temple did or admitted to doing so.

                If He had been in Judea, he would have been obliged to observe beginning of Nisan when Temple admitted the new moon and signalled it by beacons. You know, high beacons of fire, visible a long way, you light one as soon as you see next one.

                But he arrived one week or so into Nisan to Bethany (Saturday) and Jerusalem (Sunday).

                That means that he had been in Galilee and passed through probably Samaria, where Samarians were obviously not lighting beacons signalled by the Jewish temple. So Christ went by His own sighting rather than the Jewish Temple.

                Since Hillel II, Jewish calendar has been so to speak fixed in advance, but back then when the Temple was standing, it was by agricultural and astronomic observation.

                First, agricultural late in Adar/First Adar, to decide whether next month is Nisan or Second Adar and Nisan only after that.

                Second, each new month begins with a sighted new moon.

                The sighting of New Moon can obviously imply a divergence of when a Holy Month begins, as is still seen some years about new moon of Ramadan.
                A new moon in 30 AD fell on March 22. Making the next day the 1st of that Jewish month, so the 14th of Nisan fall on our Wedensday.
                . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  A new moon in 30 AD fell on March 22. Making the next day the 1st of that Jewish month, so the 14th of Nisan fall on our Wedensday.
                  But that was at 17:46 UT, about two hours after sunset in Jerusalem. By law, the new year or month wasn't declared until after two witnesses to the crescent moon stated their claim to the Sanhedrin. At sunset on Thursday, March 23, the crescent moon was 22 hours old, barely enough to be visible.

                  It is not possible to see the crescent of the new moon with the naked eye less than 15 hours before or after the moon’s closest approach to the sun, or when the moon is less that 7.5º of arc from the Sun. This is known as the Danjon limit, names after the French astronomer André-Louis Danjon.

                  But an abstract by Mohammad Ilyas entitled “The Danjon Limit of Lunar Visibility: A Re-examination,” states, “From a re-examination of Danjon’s data, it may be safely concluded that a more appropriate limiting elongation is closer to this value, i.e. ~10.5º.” That would make a minimum of about 20.6 hours after conjunction before the crescent moon could become visible to the naked eye of a trained observer intentionally searching for the crescent moon. Under ideal weather conditions and with well-trained eyes, that would be difficult.

                  The crescent moon would definitely have been visible by sunset on Friday, March 24. That would support John's Gospel in equating 1 Nisan, hence also 15 Nisan, with the weekly Shabbat.
                  Last edited by Faber; 11-26-2016, 06:59 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Faber View Post
                    But that was at 17:46 UT, about two hours after sunset in Jerusalem. By law, the new year or month wasn't declared until after two witnesses to the crescent moon stated their claim to the Sanhedrin. At sunset on Thursday, March 23, the crescent moon was 22 hours old, barely enough to be visible.

                    It is not possible to see the crescent of the new moon with the naked eye less than 15 hours before or after the moon’s closest approach to the sun, or when the moon is less that 7.5º of arc from the Sun. This is known as the Danjon limit, names after the French astronomer André-Louis Danjon.

                    But an abstract by Mohammad Ilyas entitled “The Danjon Limit of Lunar Visibility: A Re-examination,” states, “From a re-examination of Danjon’s data, it may be safely concluded that a more appropriate limiting elongation is closer to this value, i.e. ~10.5º.” That would make a minimum of about 20.6 hours after conjunction before the crescent moon could become visible to the naked eye of a trained observer intentionally searching for the crescent moon. Under ideal weather conditions and with well-trained eyes, that would be difficult.

                    The crescent moon would definitely have been visible by sunset on Friday, March 24. That would support John's Gospel in equating 1 Nisan, hence also 15 Nisan, with the weekly Shabbat.
                    When in history is the 15th of Nisan reckoned on the 6th day of the week according to the Jewish calendar?
                    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      When in history is the 15th of Nisan reckoned on the 6th day of the week according to the Jewish calendar?
                      Unlikely any time between AD 28 and AD 33.

                      Comment

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