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On what Jewish date was that?

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  • On what Jewish date was that?

    ". . . And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . ." -- Mark 14:12.
    2
    14th of Nisan
    50.00%
    1
    13th of Nisan
    0.00%
    0
    Other - specified in my post.
    50.00%
    1

    The poll is expired.

    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

  • #2
    Apparently, the jewish festival of unleavened bread and passover were used interchangeably by the gospel writers.

    Luke 22:1 . . . Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by arnoldo View Post
      Apparently, the jewish festival of unleavened bread and passover were used interchangeably by the gospel writers.

      Luke 22:1 . . . Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
      The feast of unleavened began on the 15th of Nisan through 21st. The evening of the 15th is when the Jews eat the Passover. The evening precedes the day.
      Last edited by 37818; 03-25-2016, 03:13 PM.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        The evening precedes the day.
        Confusing. Don't you mean sundown? The word "evening" is a span of time, not a moment, right?
        The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

        [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
          Confusing. Don't you mean sundown? The word "evening" is a span of time, not a moment, right?
          Technically, the word translated "evening" means "late." I understand it being used meaning past sun down in the contexts.
          ". . . And at even, when the sun did set, . . ." -- Mark 1:32. In any rate it denotes the ending of the current day and the beginning of the next in Jewish reckoning. The Jews would eat the Passover the evening of the 15th of Nisan.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #6
            If Mark 14:12 was on the 14h of Nisan that would mean Jesus and his disciples eat the Passover in the evening of the 15th of Nisan (Mark 14:16-18). Thus making the day of His crucifixion on the 15th.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              If Mark 14:12 was on the 14h of Nisan that would mean Jesus and his disciples eat the Passover in the evening of the 15th of Nisan (Mark 14:16-18). Thus making the day of His crucifixion on the 15th.
              What's confusing to Bible Scholars is that Jesus and the disciples held their seder at least one day before the Jewish leaders did. Possibly as early as Tuesday evening after sunset (Which would be Wednesday, 12 Nisan). Some groups, including the Essenes and those adhering to the Jubilee calendar, always celebrated the Passover feast Tuesday evening/Wednesday morning every year. It probably helped alleviate the crowds on the day of the Passover sacrifices.
              When I Survey....

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Faber View Post
                What's confusing to Bible Scholars is that Jesus and the disciples held their seder at least one day before the Jewish leaders did. Possibly as early as Tuesday evening after sunset (Which would be Wednesday, 12 Nisan). Some groups, including the Essenes and those adhering to the Jubilee calendar, always celebrated the Passover feast Tuesday evening/Wednesday morning every year. It probably helped alleviate the crowds on the day of the Passover sacrifices.
                On what basis? What is the earliest citation for this?
                Last edited by 37818; 03-26-2016, 03:10 PM.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #9
                  Let me first make it clear, the writings of the early church fathers are not inspired Scripture. Not only that, but some of the early writings intentionally push false teachings. But these writings contain the beliefs and traditions of the earliest church.

                  Then our Lord said unto us, "Verily I say unto you, yet a little while, and ye shall leave Me, for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of His flock shall be scattered." And Judas came with the scribes and with the priests of the people, and delivered up our Lord Jesus. But this was on Wednesday, for when we had eaten the Passover on Tuesday in the evening, we went out to the Mount of Olives, and in the night they took our Lord Jesus; and on the next day, which was Wednesday, He remained in prison in the house of Cepha the High Priest. In that day the chiefs of the people were assembled, and they took counsel together against Him. Again, the next day, which was Thursday, they brought Him to Pilate the governor, and again He remained in prison with Pilate, in the night after Thursday. And when it dawned on Friday, they accused Him much before Pilate, yet they could show nothing true, but they brought false witness against Him. And they asked Him from Pilate, to put Him to death, and they crucified Him on Friday. Didascalia Apostolorum, trans. by Margaret Dunlop Gibson M.R.A.S.; LL.D. (St Andrews); The Didascalia Apostolorum in English. (London; C. J. Clay and Sons; Cambridge University Press Warehouse; Ave Maria Lane; 1903), 94. Cepha is Caiaphas.)
                  And the priests and the elders (S. + considered and) commanded (S. + and decreed) that they should keep the feast with haste, that they might take Him without tumult; for the people of Jerusalem were occupied in the sacrifice and the eating of the Passover, and all the people from without had not yet come, because they deceived them [about] the days, that they might be reproved before God that they were greatly mistaken in everything. So they anticipated and kept the Passover three days earlier, in the eleventh of the moon on Tuesday; for they said, because that all the people go astray after Him, now that we have the opportunity to take Him; and then when all the people have come, we will kill Him before all men for His fault, and this will be known openly, and all the people will turn from after Him. Thus in the night (S. + when Wednesday dawned) Judas delivered up our Lord, but they had given the reward to Judas when he covenanted with them (S. + on the tenth of the moon) on Monday. (Ibid., p.98; S. + refers to added text in the Syrian version which didn’t appear in the Latin version.)
                  But Jesus was arrested late on that same third day, which was the nighttime of the eleventh of the month, the sixteenth before the Kalends of April. The dawning of the fourth day of the week was the nighttime of the [Jewish] twelfth day of the month, the fifteenth before the Kalends of April. The daytime of the thirteenth day of the month was the fifth day of the week, but the [ensuing] nighttime was the fourteenth of the month, the fourteenth before the Kalends of April. The daytime of the fourteenth of the month was the eve of the Sabbath, the thirteenth before the Kalends of April. The daytime of the fifteenth of the month was the Sabbath, the twelfth before the Kalends of April. (Panarion, Section IV, series 51,26,3 (Against the sect which does not accept the Gospel according to John, and his Revelation). Epiphanius, Panarion, trans. by Frank Williams, The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis, Books II and III (Sections 47-80, De Fide), (Nag Hammadi and Manichaean Studies). (Leiden, The Netherlands: E.J. Brill, 1994), 57-58.)
                  Last edited by Faber; 03-26-2016, 08:52 PM.
                  When I Survey....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    From some commentaries:

                    The day is breaking, which constitutes, according to John (prima facie), the 14th of Nisan, in the evening of which and commencement of the 15th the Passover would be killed. According to the synoptists, that Passover meal was already over, and the first great day of the feast had commenced - the day of convocation, with sabbatic functions and duties. The statements are apparently in hopeless variance. Many emphasize, exaggerate, and declare insoluble the contradiction, repudiating either the authority of John or that of the synoptists. Meyer and Lucke give their verdict with John, the eye-witness, as against the synoptic tradition. Strauss and Keim, who also hold the invincible discrepancy, lift the synoptic account to a comparatively high state of historic validity, and thereby discredit the authenticity of the Fourth Gospel. (The Pulpit Commentary, Vol. 17 (Gospel of John). ~1889; edited by H.D.M. Spence and Joseph S. Exell; citing Heinrich Meyer and Friedrich Lucke)
                    There is here a contradiction for which there is no compromise solution. Either the Synoptic gospels are correct or John is. Scholars are much divided. But it seems most likely that the Synoptics are correct. . . There is no full explanation of this obvious discrepancy; but this seems to us the best. (William Barclay, The Daily Study Bible Series. The Gospel of John, Volume 2. (Westminster: John Knox Press, 1975), 293.)
                    [I]t must not be forgotten that over all three narratives extends the great difficulty of explaining “the first day of the feast of unleavened bread” (Matt., Mark) or “the day of unleavened bread” (Luke), and of reconciling the impression undeniably conveyed by them, that the Lord and his disciples ate the usual Passover, with the narrative of St. John, which not only does not sanction, but I believe absolutely excludes such a supposition. I shall give in as short a compass as I can, the various solutions which have been attempted, and the objections to them; fairly confessing that none of them satisfy me, and that at present I have none of my own. (Henry Alford, The Greek Testament, Vol. 1, The Four Gospels. (London: Rivingtons, Waterloo Place; & J. Deighton, Cambridge; 1849), 262.)
                    Another solution to the discrepancy is that different calendars were followed. The main calendar used was a lunisolar calendar, but some groups, apparently including the community at Qumran, used a solar calendar of 364 days (cf Schurer 1973-1987:1:587-601; Vanderkam 1992). The main drawback to this solution is the lack of evidence for Jesus’ having followed the solar calendar (cf. Vanderkam 1992:820). The other main proposal is that the Galileans and the Pharisees reckoned days from sunrise to sunrise, while Judeans did so from sunset to sunset. This means the Judeans, including these opponents, would slaughter their lambs late Friday afternoon, whereas Jesus and his disciples had theirs slaughtered late Thursday afternoon (Hoehner 1977:83-90; cf. Morris 1971:782-785). It has also been suggested that the slaughtering of the lambs actually took place over two days because of the volume of lambs involved (Hoehner 1977:84). According to these solutions, Jesus had already eaten Passover, but the opponents have yet to do so. A major drawback to theories of different days for celebrating Passover is “the lack of any hint of such a distinction in the gospels themselves” (Blomberg 1987:176-177). (Rodney A. Whitacre, The IVP New Testament Commentary Series, John. (Westmont, IL: Inter-Varsity Press, 1999), 437-8.)
                    Last edited by Faber; 03-26-2016, 08:53 PM.
                    When I Survey....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Among the thousands of fragments found in the caves around Qumran, one fragment in particular, given the designation 4Q321, gives more information on the calendar used by the Essenes. It contains twelve months, unnamed but referred to as the first month, the second month, etc. The third, sixth, ninth and twelfth months have 31 days; the other months have 30 days. 364 days total; 52 weeks. The first month corresponds roughly with Nisan, the first month of the Lunar Calendar. It begins every year on a Tuesday evening at sunset. The first day of the first month thus falls on Wednesday every year. Passover is on the 15th day of the first month, also beginning on Tuesday at sunset and continuing to Wednesday at sunset. Waiving of the barley sheaves, instead of being the Sunday immediately after Passover, is on Sunday, the 26th day of the first month, eleven days after Passover. The Festival of the First Fruits is on Sunday, the 15th day of the third month, sixty days after Passover. The Feast of Trumpets is on Wednesday, the first day of the seventh month. The Day of Atonement is on Friday, the 10th day of the seventh month. The Feast of Tabernacles is eight days, beginning on Wednesday, the 15 day of the seventh month, and continuing to the following Wednesday. It was intended to be a perpetual calendar, with none of the feasts days (except the fourth day of Tabernacles) falling on the Sabbath.

                      Other documents from the caves made reference to the Jubilee calendar. 4Q320 and 4Q328 give the schedule for the several orders of priests for their weekly service in the temple in accordance with the Jubilee calendar. 4Q326 lists the days of the Sabbaths, Passover and other feast days.

                      Annie Jaubert (1912-1980) was a French Bible scholar known for her research on the calendrical teachings of the Hebrew Bible and other ancient Hebrew literature. She offered a solution to the conflicting chronologies of the Passover in the four Gospels.

                      In conclusion: it is certain that, at the beginning of the first century, A.D., there existed two liturgical calendars. In one of these the feasts were assigned to days of the lunar month; this was the official calendar, about which we can find information in later rabbinical Judaism. In the second, the feasts always fell on fixed days of the week. The character of this calendar may now be discovered in contemporary Jewish sources. It is witnessed only in its Jubilees-Qumran type; but it is probable that it also existed in modified forms which could have either preserved an intermediary stage of the calendar's development or attempted a certain compromise with the official reckoning. (Annie Jaubert; The Date of the Last Supper. Translated by Isaac Rafferty. (Staten Island, NY: Alba House, 1965), 52.)
                      What is interesting is that on this calendar Passover always fell on a Wednesday, two weeks after the spring equinox. In AD 30 the spring equinox took place on Wednesday, March 22 (Julian calendar), just before midnight, local Jerusalem time. If the Essene calendar began the day before, Tuesday March 21 at sunset and continued through Wednesday March 22 until sunset, then the Passover feast according to the calendars of the Essenes, the Damascus Document, the Book of Jubilees and the First Book of Enoch would have taken place on Tuesday night, April 5.

                      Following the chronology in Matthew’s Gospel, it was late Monday afternoon when the disciples asked Jesus about future events as they left the temple on their way to Bethany. As they climbed the slope to the Mount of Olives, they looked back at the temple. Jesus warned them of things to come, of the future destruction of the temple, and of His future return to Earth. Then as they continued on their journey to Bethany, He reminded them, “Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.” (Matthew 26:2)
                      They would be holding the Passover Seder on Tuesday after sunset, or Wednesday, by ancient Jewish reckoning. That would be Tuesday night before sunset by our reckoning. This is three nights before the official Passover observed by the priests, and two nights before the traditional Maundy Thursday That would be the very night that Jesus and the disciples held their Passover Seder if we adhere to the chronology in the Gospel According to Matthew and allow three days for the trial of Jesus and Herod’s involvement. The very same day that the Didiscalia Apostolorum and Epiphanius’s Panarion say it took place.

                      This is definitely NOT to say that I am in agreement with another discussion which claims that Jesus was crucified on Thursday.
                      When I Survey....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thank you Faber

                        arnoldo rightly cited Luke:
                        Luke 22:1 . . . Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
                        My study of John and the Law does not lead me to believe that he taught differently than the synoptic accounts. Rather John has been commonly misinterpreted.

                        ". . . And it was the preparation of the passover, . . ." -- John 19:14.

                        ". . . And in the fifteenth day of this month [is] the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten. In the first day [shall be] an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work [therein]: But ye shall offer a sacrifice made by fire [for] a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, and seven lambs of the first year: they shall be unto you without blemish: And their meat offering [shall be of] flour mingled with oil: three tenth deals shall ye offer for a bullock, and two tenth deals for a ram; A several tenth deal shalt thou offer for every lamb, throughout the seven lambs: And one goat [for] a sin offering, to make an atonement for you." -- Numbers 28:17-22.

                        ". . . And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock [for] a sin offering. And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily [for] a sin offering." -- Ezekiel 45:22-23. Which is similar to Numbers as cited.

                        So what I see is that during the feast which by Jesus' day was also called the Passover, a preparation would would be done each day of the feast. So no conflict need be supposed. I stumbled on to this over 40 years ago.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          Technically, the word translated "evening" means "late." I understand it being used meaning past sun down in the contexts.
                          ". . . And at even, when the sun did set, . . ." -- Mark 1:32. In any rate it denotes the ending of the current day and the beginning of the next in Jewish reckoning. The Jews would eat the Passover the evening of the 15th of Nisan.
                          Let me make sure I have got everything straight now. Suppose the sun set at 6PM as we moderns reckon time. Then 7PM would be an evening time according to the Jews' time-reckoning.
                          The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                          [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It's a little more complicated. For example, the evening tamid sacrifice took place around 3:00 PM. In a sense, the evening is when the sun was going down, which included late afternoon.

                            The daytime was divided into twelve hours, regardless of how long the day was. So we're talking mid-afternoon.

                            But in another sense, terms like Exodus 12:6, "in the evening" (KJV) or "at twilight" (NASB) are translations of "beyn ha'arbayim", literally "between the evenings." This is interpreted to mean between the actual sunset and the point where there is no longer any light in the sky.
                            When I Survey....

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Faber View Post
                              It's a little more complicated. For example, the evening tamid sacrifice took place around 3:00 PM. In a sense, the evening is when the sun was going down, which included late afternoon.

                              The daytime was divided into twelve hours, regardless of how long the day was. So we're talking mid-afternoon.

                              But in another sense, terms like Exodus 12:6, "in the evening" (KJV) or "at twilight" (NASB) are translations of "beyn ha'arbayim", literally "between the evenings." This is interpreted to mean between the actual sunset and the point where there is no longer any light in the sky.
                              1) I forgot that the Jews were apt to be loose compared to us, who likes things to be exact.

                              2) Your last sentence is not clear. By "actual sunset" I don't think you mean the sun's astronomical position (90 degrees west azimuth from high noon). From a viewpoint looking west, the sun appears to be higher than its astronomical position because of atmospheric refraction (air bending the sunlight toward the earth
                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction
                              ).

                              "No longer any light in the sky" -- I think you mean sunlight in the sky.
                              The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                              [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                              Comment

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