Islam and the modern world

[shunyadragon]

I am not the least bit interested in what websites that compare Muslims to "human beasts"---have to say on anything pertaining to Islam....
"...the Muslim male according to statistics is the most violent, oppressive, forceful and deranged human beast on earth. " ----from your previous post......
The clairon project ---if I remember correctly also made and distributed Islamophobic videos.....
If Islamophobic views are of interest to you...here is a Jewish site that details the Islamophobes and their views (an unbiased source........)
http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/blog/the-islamophobes

Your questions were interesting....but it seems from here on out there is nothing further to say.

OK, but your ignoring the facts of the articles, and not responding.

Shooting the messenger, because of a factual unfavorable message is a fallacy.

Have a good day!!!!

[siam]

I am not the least bit interested in what websites that compare Muslims to "human beasts"---have to say on anything pertaining to Islam....
"...the Muslim male according to statistics is the most violent, oppressive, forceful and deranged human beast on earth. " ----from your previous post......
The clairon project ---if I remember correctly also made and distributed Islamophobic videos.....
If Islamophobic views are of interest to you...here is a Jewish site that details the Islamophobes and their views (an unbiased source........)
http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/blog/the-islamophobes

Your questions were interesting....but it seems from here on out there is nothing further to say.

[shunyadragon]

As I understand it---you want me to address the "Justice system" in the "Islamic world" and issues of rape as "today's problem"......

By "Islamic world" I will assume you mean Muslim-Majority countries.
Justice systems---see map http://www.juriglobe.ca/eng/rep-geo/cartes/monde.php
The U.S., parts of Europe (and Nothern Eurasia) and South America have what is called "monosystems" of law---many other parts of the world have hybrid systems of Law.

One element of the "Modern" systems of justice (of whatever type) is their focus on punitive/retributive justice. This aspect of justice focuses on punishments commensurate with the crimes (though this is subjective and can lead to injustice---such as mass incarceration of people of color for petty crimes that non-colored peoples get away with....)
If we understand incarceration as an oppression---then we should perhaps reconsider its excessive use.....

Another type of Justice is restorative justice and this aspect can be found in the Quran (and also, IMO, in Jewish law).
There is a saying that dealing violence with violence only creates more violence---thus, punishing criminals by putting them into a oppressive and violent prison system is neither helping the criminals, nor the society---as people coming out such systems may end up with little options and prone to violence....on the other hand, victims have a right to seek justice for crimes against them.
while punitive justice may be the right solution in some cases...restorative justice offers an opportunity of the healing of souls of the victim, criminal, and reconciliation in the community.....This may be a better way to break the cycle of violence and build societies that work towards peace, healing, and reconciliations...

If abuse (both gender based and general) is to be minimized, we need to foster in our selves, our societies, and in future generations, the importance of the right to human dignity by all humanity. We need to minimize violence in our homes, in our communities, in our laws and justice systems, in our government policies (foreign and domestic) and in our understanding of human dignity for all humanity (not just "our" group).
Rethinking the purpose of education as Talim and Tarbiat is one way,....another is rethinking our justice systems towards restorative justice.....

An article that looks at restorative justice within Islam....
http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/...&context=jmeil

I do not believe you have addressed the primary issue. The Laws of Islamic countries, and of Islam and rape and other violent crimes against women. The problem is not just Saudi Arabia.

Yes, rape is condemned in the Quran, but Islamic Law and Islamic country government laws fail to provide protection for women against violence in Islamic countries.

Source: http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/rape-and-islamic-doctrine-allows-it

Rape and the Islamist Doctrine That Allows It

Historically and juridically, Islamism sanctions FGM for Muslim females and rape and sexual slavery of non-Muslim females.

The first time that many Americans and others in the West became aware of the extent of the mistreatment of women in Muslim-majority countries was on February 11, 2011, the night that Hosni Mubarak’s government fell in Cairo and CBS News correspondent, Lara Logan, was brutally sexually assaulted in Tahrir Square.

Yet, those already familiar with the Egyptian street know that the brazen sexual harassment of women has been a feature of public life there for a long time. After all, this is an overwhelmingly Muslim country where statistics show more than 90 per cent of women undergo genital mutilation (Female Genital Mutilation-FGM

), whose fundamental purpose is to destroy female sexuality—not only so that men may more easily control their own women but in an attempt to remove ostensible “provocation” from men who are raised from infancy in an environment of permissiveness to believe they are superior to women.

And while Western feminist groups determinedly avoid the topic altogether, international organizations charged with studying the treatment of women around the world typically take pains to avoid any insinuation that either FGM or rape of women and girls has anything to do with Islam. Unfortunately, both do. Doctrinally, historically and juridically, Islam sanctions FGM for Muslim females and the rape and sexual slavery of non-Muslim females.

While female “circumcision” (as it is referred to) is either obligatory (Shafi’i school of Islamic jurisprudence) or recommended as “praiseworthy” (Maliki school) under Islamic Law, rape and sex slavery of females seized in war is recounted with approval in the Qur’an (Q 4:24; Q 33:50), hadiths, and Sirat (biographies of Mohammed).

The upsurge in reporting about the sexual assault and rape of women at the hands of Muslim men likely is more reflective of new-found Western awareness about the phenomenon than it is indicative of an actual increase in such behavior, historically speaking. Human rights and women’s organizations, such as Human Rights Watch, while scrupulously careful to avoid connecting sexual assault to Islam, nevertheless do publish regular statistics about its incidence.

For instance, the Egyptian Center for Women’s Rights, a non-governmental group, found shockingly high levels of Egyptian women who reported being sexually harassed (83 percent), while the percentage for foreign female visitors was an astonishing 98 percent. At least as shocking was the number of Egyptian men who admitted to having harassed women (62 percent).

© Copyright Original Source

The above is too vague and general to address the issue. Again and again it does not address the problems by 'scape goat' blaming Western influence. The big problem remains the laws and enforcement problems in Islamic countries, and the inadequacy of Islamic laws and sense of justice toward women.

[siam]

As I understand it---you want me to address the "Justice system" in the "Islamic world" and issues of rape as "today's problem"......

By "Islamic world" I will assume you mean Muslim-Majority countries.
Justice systems---see map http://www.juriglobe.ca/eng/rep-geo/cartes/monde.php
The U.S., parts of Europe (and Nothern Eurasia) and South America have what is called "monosystems" of law---many other parts of the world have hybrid systems of Law.

One element of the "Modern" systems of justice (of whatever type) is their focus on punitive/retributive justice. This aspect of justice focuses on punishments commensurate with the crimes (though this is subjective and can lead to injustice---such as mass incarceration of people of color for petty crimes that non-colored peoples get away with....)
If we understand incarceration as an oppression---then we should perhaps reconsider its excessive use.....

Another type of Justice is restorative justice and this aspect can be found in the Quran (and also, IMO, in Jewish law).
There is a saying that dealing violence with violence only creates more violence---thus, punishing criminals by putting them into a oppressive and violent prison system is neither helping the criminals, nor the society---as people coming out such systems may end up with little options and prone to violence....on the other hand, victims have a right to seek justice for crimes against them.
while punitive justice may be the right solution in some cases...restorative justice offers an opportunity of the healing of souls of the victim, criminal, and reconciliation in the community.....This may be a better way to break the cycle of violence and build societies that work towards peace, healing, and reconciliations...

If abuse (both gender based and general) is to be minimized, we need to foster in our selves, our societies, and in future generations, the importance of the right to human dignity by all humanity. We need to minimize violence in our homes, in our communities, in our laws and justice systems, in our government policies (foreign and domestic) and in our understanding of human dignity for all humanity (not just "our" group).
Rethinking the purpose of education as Talim and Tarbiat is one way,....another is rethinking our justice systems towards restorative justice.....

An article that looks at restorative justice within Islam....
http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/...&context=jmeil

[shunyadragon]

It is best to look at the world picture and the Islamic world in relation to the rest of the world. The following research article referred to in this article does this. There are of course problems concerning rape in the West, but in comparing it to the Islamic world the problem is small indeed.

These problems are closely related to the statistics and Laws for 'Trafficking of Women' as cited in the article.

Source: [url

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/07/11/statistics-muslim-countries-obsessed-with-womens-honour-have-one-of-the-highest-rape-scales-in-the-world][/url]

Islam, Muhammad, mosques, five prayers per day, rigid control of their religious duties hasn’t done one thing to transform the Muslim male to a normal human being or a normal man. On the contrary, the Muslim male according to statistics is the most violent, oppressive, forceful and deranged human beast on earth. They also rule the world’s highest rape incidents – which seem to coordinate with rape statistics in the West that are dominated by Muslims.

All these facts and statistics according to collected studies on crimes against women around the world in collaboration with various non-profit organizations that deal with these issues on a daily basis. Other studies have shown that Muslim majority nations are afflicted with amongst the highest drug rate, homosexuality rate, murder rate, and sodomy rate.

© Copyright Original Source

Again I acknowledge the problem in other regions of the world and cultures especially the underdeveloped countries of Africa, but these as such remain lower statistically then the Islamic world dominated countries.

[shunyadragon]

Justice, Sharia, Rape.

Justice is an important concept/value in Islam and one of the goals of the pursuit of knowledge is to encourage justness and decency (ethical/moral behaviors and relationships) which comes about by acquiring "Adab" (refinement). Thus one might put forward 2 general purposes of the pursuit of knowledge/education 1) Acquisition and transmission of knowledge (Talim) and 2) promoting a transforming behavior in order to promote peace and tranquility in all degrees of human relationships. (Tarbiat)

Human behavior can be understood in two ways 1)action, 2) restraint. So, those who have more (God-given) strength not only have the responsibility of protecting those who are less strong, but also of restraining from abusing their strength. This principle should rule our behavior not just in gender relations...but others such as the elderly, the ill, the young, handicapped, marginalized....etc....

This does not address the problem of the Justice system in the Islamic world and 'rape.' Your posts are most often long, vague, and do not address the issues directly. Again, I am not defending the West. I am challenging the Islamic world in today's concerning its failure to deal with today's problem. In this case 'rape.'

Saudi Arabia are Wahabi---The problems of the justice system in their country must be resolved by the citizens of that country. In the U.S. 1 in 5 women are raped and this problem has to be resolved by the citizens of that country--also the rigorous questioning and testing required to prove rape often prevent women from reporting rape (50% of rapes are unreported).

The problem is not just Saudi Arabia. The problem is throughout the Islamic world. I only gave Saudi Arabia as an example.

PLEASE do not change the subject!!!! The issue is not America. I AM NOT defending Western Law and how it is enforced. The question is the difference between the spiritual law of Islam and the Baha'i Faith. The problem here is justice for women in Islamic law concerning rape. Regardless of your selective accusations against the west, the legal system of the west does not blame women as partially at fault in rape.

However, humanity is also responsible for urging all peoples towards the good and refraining from bad. As such more voices should unite in promoting the protection of the weak and preventing their abuse....The East also suffers from this problem and here the response is that this is a male problem and men and boys must be targeted for interventions and solutions.....
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/...155725918.html
In Egypt, male youths have formed patrols to protect women from harassment, India is also trying to find creative solutions through technology as well as promoting awareness of male values...
These may be good directions.......

This does not address the issue of the problem of how 'rape' is addressed under Islamic world. Please address this issue directly.

.This more Bandaides for Cancer.' It is not how 'some' attempt to protect women. It is how the crimes of rape are enforced under Islamic Law.

Please address the real issues of the problems of Islam in the real world today.

But---we must also be aware of the complex factors that lead to the various abuses of women---one of which is conflicts/wars. Societies that have experienced violence have traumatized their children, leading to a cycle of violence....and this is a serious factor that needs deep consideration.

Your dodging the issue, and using the problem of conflicts/wars as a scape goat. The problem of how 'rape' is dealt with in the Islamic world in modern history is most definitely NOT conflicts and wars. IT is how Islamic Shiria Laws and teaching are applied in the Islamic legal system Again it is the antiquated Islamic legal system for the enforcement of crimes of rape that is the severe problem here. You are dodging the real issue here.

In order for humanity to aspire to our most noble values and highest potential for good...we need peace. Conflicts/Wars/Violence cause destruction to our Earth, harms our souls and causes traumas and deep moral injuries which lead to cycles of more destruction and harm.
...and that is why God (concept of) is so essential towards walking to peace...

It is not the (concept?) of God that is important. IT is God that is the Source of all Creation. There needs to be a new paradigm to bring peace and faith in God, the Baha'i Faith, and not a religion violently irreconcilably divided between Shia and Sunni. Still this does not address the problem of Islam and the issue of justice for women concerning rape.

..It matters not if God is real or myth---the sacredness, meaning and purpose that we get from such a paradigm offers us hope of breaking a destructive and harmful cycle and thereby moving towards peace.

First the bolded is a severe problem that creeps into your posts form Time to time. A more humanist view of religion. God gives the sacredness, meaning and purpose that we get from such a paradigm offers us hope of breaking a destructive and harmful cycle and thereby moving towards peace. Without God the harmful cycle will continue. Living in past paradigms of ancient religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam results in this harmful cycle. This is a fact of history, and the basic facts of the world today. Again, you need to address the problems of Isla in today's world, and not an idealic view of how things should be under Islam.

That is exactly what the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) achieved with Islam. He broke the cycle of vengeance and violence of pre-Islamic Arabia and united a people with a vision of peace.

I have no problem with Muhammed being a prophet of God for the time, but not in today's world.

The next post I will deal with rape, Islamic law and ALL of the Islamic world, not just Saudi Arabia.

[siam]

Justice, Sharia, Rape.

Justice is an important concept/value in Islam and one of the goals of the pursuit of knowledge is to encourage justness and decency (ethical/moral behaviors and relationships) which comes about by acquiring "Adab" (refinement). Thus one might put forward 2 general purposes of the pursuit of knowledge/education 1) Acquisition and transmission of knowledge (Talim) and 2) promoting a transforming behavior in order to promote peace and tranquility in all degrees of human relationships. (Tarbiat)

Human behavior can be understood in two ways 1)action, 2) restraint. So, those who have more (God-given) strength not only have the responsibility of protecting those who are less strong, but also of restraining from abusing their strength. This principle should rule our behavior not just in gender relations...but others such as the elderly, the ill, the young, handicapped, marginalized....etc....

Saudi Arabia are Wahabi---The problems of the justice system in their country must be resolved by the citizens of that country. In the U.S. 1 in 5 women are raped and this problem has to be resolved by the citizens of that country--also the rigorous questioning and testing required to prove rape often prevent women from reporting rape (50% of rapes are unreported).
However, humanity is also responsible for urging all peoples towards the good and refraining from bad. As such more voices should unite in promoting the protection of the weak and preventing their abuse....The East also suffers from this problem and here the response is that this is a male problem and men and boys must be targeted for interventions and solutions.....
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/...155725918.html
In Egypt, male youths have formed patrols to protect women from harassment, India is also trying to find creative solutions through technology as well as promoting awareness of male values...
These may be good directions.......

But---we must also be aware of the complex factors that lead to the various abuses of women---one of which is conflicts/wars. Societies that have experienced violence have traumatized their children, leading to a cycle of violence....and this is a serious factor that needs deep consideration.

In order for humanity to aspire to our most noble values and highest potential for good...we need peace. Conflicts/Wars/Violence cause destruction to our Earth, harms our souls and causes traumas and deep moral injuries which lead to cycles of more destruction and harm.
...and that is why God (concept of) is so essential towards walking to peace.....It matters not if God is real or myth---the sacredness, meaning and purpose that we get from such a paradigm offers us hope of breaking a destructive and harmful cycle and thereby moving towards peace. That is exactly what the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) achieved with Islam. He broke the cycle of vengeance and violence of pre-Islamic Arabia and united a people with a vision of peace.

[siam]

I feel it is necessary to carefully restate the issue of spiritual principles for universal education, and gender equality.

(1) Neither Christianity nor Islam have fundamental spiritual laws that mandate universal education, and gender equality at all levels of education.

(2) The Baha'i Faith is the first religion to mandate universal education and gender equality, and education at all levels including universities with gender equality.

(3) Since the Revelation of the Baha'i Faith this has become the standard for the world as described in United Nation and in particular UNESCO policies and goals. Most Western countries and in the Orient have adopted these goals.

(4) Which Islamic countries have adopted this policy at all levels of education?

I, at times, refer to Wikipedia, but with a note of caution. One must evaluate the integrity and sources of the articles on Wikipedia before citing them.

This UNESCO report gives more details and statistics for universal education and gender equality. Yes, primary education is increasing world wide, but not in all countries is the increase significant. The question remains as to the opportunities and gender equality in the higher levels including university level education.

Equal gender and universal education remains a problem in the third world in both Islamic and Christian dominated countries.

I will look more into this for better statistics.

The Quran speaks about gender equality as well as equality of all humanity and it advocates for the pursuit of knowledge.
In Iran more women are in universities than men and they are taking engineering and science degrees....however....there may be many factors involved and to claim it is "because of Islam" would be incorrect....
Many Muslim Majority countries have signed up to the convention on childrens rights (article 28 speaks about education)http://www.ohchr.org/en/professional...pages/crc.aspx
https://treaties.un.org/pages/viewde...NTC-publisher=

Malala Yousufzai a Muslim Youth advocates for education saying she is inspired to do so because of Islam....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn7uj_e1s8o

and gave a speech to world leaders where she said that if the world leaders reduced wars and instead used that money for education---all the children would be educated at the fraction of the expense of wars---and she also said that the U.N. goals on education were too small.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxOfTQYjy9o


If you feel that Bahai are influencing the world and humanity to be better...that is very good. I hope your community continues to do so.....and works in co-operation with many faith communities so that we can all contribute to a pluralistic world.

[shunyadragon]

Here in the East---colonization is an issue because many Islamic and Buddhist education institutions were replaced with "Modern" systems. This also destroyed a lot of philosophies, traditions, identities and histories. Had the "West" chosen a different path---one of co-operation instead of destruction---we may have been living in a far better world today.....

This issue keeps coming up, but it is not the issue of the thread. I am not remotely defending nor arguing for the supremacy of Western systems of government, nor Christian religion influence prior to 1844, or the colonial and 'Manifest Destiny' period. The old historical sins of the West are not the issue here. Basically OFF TOPIC. The spiritual principles of the Baha'i Faith, and their progressive impact on the world, both East and West, as opposed to the Islamic world prior to 1844, and to a great extent since this time are the issues.

Again your attack on "Modernism" in the West is very one sided, and does not acknowledge the problems in Islam and Islamic countries that cannot be blamed on the West.

Another very critical problem in the Islamic world and to some extent in the West, is the problem of gender equality in the legal system. The main up front question is 'rape' and the rights of women in the legal system and the culture. It is not a matter of whether 'rape' is forbidden in Islamic Law, because it is forbidden and punishable by death. It is matter of how it is enforced in an equitable way in Islamic Countries and cultures.

Just quoting the Quran in response to this problem is of no help, because the problem is how 'rape' is handled today in the Islamic world and the legal equality of women in the religious, Shiria Law, and government legal systems. What is the women's responsibility for 'rape' under current religious and government law in the Islamic world?

The interpretation of Shiria Law is an important issue here concerning the inconsistent enforcement and gender equality under the law.

I will cite more sources on this issue, but the following an excellent example of the problem.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Saudi_Arabia

Rape in Saudi Arabia has been considerably investigated by various observers. In 1988, sexual offences stood at 2.19 rapes per 100,000 population.[1] Under Sharia law, a law generally enforced by the Islamic states(Islamic Law), punishment imposed by the court on the rapist may range from flogging to execution. However, there is no penal code in Saudi Arabia and there is no written law which specifically criminalizes rape or prescribes its punishment. If the rape victim first entered the rapist's company in violation of purdah, she also stands to be punished by the law's current holdings.[2] In addition, there is no prohibition against marital rape or statutory rape.

In Saudi Arabia, rape cases usually target both the defendant and the victim,[3] and in some cases, the victim can be sentenced to even harsher punishment than the assailant.

© Copyright Original Source

[shunyadragon]

I feel it is necessary to carefully restate the issue of spiritual principles for universal education, and gender equality.

(1) Neither Christianity nor Islam have fundamental spiritual laws that mandate universal education, and gender equality at all levels of education.

(2) The Baha'i Faith is the first religion to mandate universal education and gender equality, and education at all levels including universities with gender equality.

(3) Since the Revelation of the Baha'i Faith this has become the standard for the world as described in United Nation and in particular UNESCO policies and goals. Most Western countries and in the Orient have adopted these goals.

(4) Which Islamic countries have adopted this policy at all levels of education?

I, at times, refer to Wikipedia, but with a note of caution. One must evaluate the integrity and sources of the articles on Wikipedia before citing them.

This UNESCO report gives more details and statistics for universal education and gender equality. Yes, primary education is increasing world wide, but not in all countries is the increase significant. The question remains as to the opportunities and gender equality in the higher levels including university level education.

Equal gender and universal education remains a problem in the third world in both Islamic and Christian dominated countries.

I will look more into this for better statistics.

[shunyadragon]

If you were to ask me why does 2 + 2 = 5?...I will not be able to answer except to say that the question is incorrect.

Huh!?!?!?! Not clear at best.

Even if we were to say that Islam does not promote the pursuit of knowledge in scripture, history or practice ---- that does not mean that inequality is the specific result of "Islam" alone. As it is, Islam does promote the pursuit of knowledge in scripture, history, and practice---nevertheless, in spite of that,---inequality persists.
Can Muslims/"Islam" resolve this problem of inequality?---Yes, I believe so....I think re-aligning our ethicio-moral principles with a Tawhidic paradigm has the potential to alleviate our problems....

I am a bottom line guy. What coulda, woulda or shoulda be based on the idealism of how you fell things should be applied does not cut it as far as the bottom line.

It is the way things are in reality that impresses me.

[/quote]

Take a look at some data----
gender discrepancy (in education)
greater number of boys

Singapore---it was 4.2 %
Malaysia---it was 4.7%

Hongkong---7.5%
Indonesia--7.4%

Mozambique (Christian majority)---27.9%
Afghanistan (Muslim majority)---30%

on the other hand---
greater number of girls

UAE--5% (2003)
Jamaica --9% (2010)
Kuwait--2.6% (2011)
Lesotho--12% (---)

This would suggest that simplistic assumptions need to be re-evaluated.... [/quote]

No reevaluation needed your list of the above especially small countries you listed is not representative. Please note the issues with this source


This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._literacy_rate

This article's factual accuracy is disputed. (March 2014)

This article's factual accuracy may be compromised due to out-of-date information. (March 2014)

I will respond more to this in next post.

Quran---
There are many places where the Quran advocates for the pursuit of knowledge---so many that you can easily do an internet search so I won't go into it---but the most popular one among Muslims is this one....

Surah 96 v1-8
1. Read(Recite) In the name of your Lord and Cherisher, who created---
2. Created man out of a leech-like clot (Al-Aqlaq)
3. Read/Recite and your Lord is most Bountiful
4. He who taught (the use of) the pen
5. Taught man that which he knew not
6. No, but man does transgress all bounds
7. In that he looks upon himself as self-sufficient.
8. Certainly, to your Lord is the return (of all)

(...personally, I think verses 6 and 7 are a good commentary on our Modern times....)

These citations of the Quran are too short and incomplete in context. I am not impressed.

When it comes to education, I think the Catholic Church offers an interesting model to look at, but apart from that, the economic inequalities that contribute to educational inequalities may be alleviated if we look at the structure of education financing as well as general economic theories in Islamic history and modified them for a future pluralistic system...

I am not impressed with hypothetical claims based on the Quran or theories of what may be in a future pluralistic system.

More to follow specifically on education.

Here in the East---colonization is an issue because many Islamic and Buddhist education institutions were replaced with "Modern" systems. This also destroyed a lot of philosophies, traditions, identities and histories. Had the "West" chosen a different path---one of co-operation instead of destruction---we may have been living in a far better world today.....




for further reading/listening.....
http://www.islamicity.com/articles/A...ef=IC0601-2883
http://www.mef-ca.org/files/attas-text-final.pdf
http://tariqramadan.com/english/2013...ics-and-goals/[/QUOTE]

[siam]

YES it does address the inherent INEQUALITY of the schools, which is progressively increasing in western countries. Your dodging the BIG problem. That is the lack of universal education for ALL children in Islamic countries.

Also the fact that the principle of equal and universal education first promulgated by Baha'i scripture has become the standard of Western Countries. You're picking at problems which are real, and neglecting the main issue. The opportunity for equal education is increasing in the west, but it is NOT the promulgated goal in most Islamic countries, because it is not a fundamental principle and goal in Islamic scripture.

Please Address the issue!

If you were to ask me why does 2 + 2 = 5?...I will not be able to answer except to say that the question is incorrect.

Even if we were to say that Islam does not promote the pursuit of knowledge in scripture, history or practice ---- that does not mean that inequality is the specific result of "Islam" alone. As it is, Islam does promote the pursuit of knowledge in scripture, history, and practice---nevertheless, in spite of that,---inequality persists.
Can Muslims/"Islam" resolve this problem of inequality?---Yes, I believe so....I think re-aligning our ethicio-moral principles with a Tawhidic paradigm has the potential to alleviate our problems....

Take a look at some data----
gender discrepancy (in education)
greater number of boys

Singapore---it was 4.2 %
Malaysia---it was 4.7%

Hongkong---7.5%
Indonesia--7.4%

Mozambique (Christian majority)---27.9%
Afghanistan (Muslim majority)---30%

on the other hand---
greater number of girls

UAE--5% (2003)
Jamaica --9% (2010)
Kuwait--2.6% (2011)
Lesotho--12% (---)

This would suggest that simplistic assumptions need to be re-evaluated....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._literacy_rate

Quran---
There are many places where the Quran advocates for the pursuit of knowledge---so many that you can easily do an internet search so I won't go into it---but the most popular one among Muslims is this one....

Surah 96 v1-8
1. Read(Recite) In the name of your Lord and Cherisher, who created---
2. Created man out of a leech-like clot (Al-Aqlaq)
3. Read/Recite and your Lord is most Bountiful
4. He who taught (the use of) the pen
5. Taught man that which he knew not
6. No, but man does transgress all bounds
7. In that he looks upon himself as self-sufficient.
8. Certainly, to your Lord is the return (of all)

(...personally, I think verses 6 and 7 are a good commentary on our Modern times....)

When it comes to education, I think the Catholic Church offers an interesting model to look at, but apart from that, the economic inequalities that contribute to educational inequalities may be alleviated if we look at the structure of education financing as well as general economic theories in Islamic history and modified them for a future pluralistic system....

Here in the East---colonization is an issue because many Islamic and Buddhist education institutions were replaced with "Modern" systems. This also destroyed a lot of philosophies, traditions, identities and histories. Had the "West" chosen a different path---one of co-operation instead of destruction---we may have been living in a far better world today.....




for further reading/listening.....
http://www.islamicity.com/articles/A...ef=IC0601-2883
http://www.mef-ca.org/files/attas-text-final.pdf
http://tariqramadan.com/english/2013...ics-and-goals/

[shunyadragon]

It is nice that Bahai thinking is making positive contributions to humanity.

If I understand you correctly...you are making an interesting claim....That "Modernity" is based on Bahai principles, one of which is universal education....and by "universal" you mean that both genders are educated. Right or wrong...let us accept this premise for the moment....

What is the Bahai concept of "equality"?
The right to "equal" education is based upon what you refer to as "first spiritual law" (is this a Bahai term?) so, what is the purpose/goal of education in Bahai philosophy/"Spiritual law"?

The concept of equality is a foundation principle, but it is not the first principle. The first principle in the Baha'i Faith is the absolute unity, unknowability and universality of God.

The goal of universal education is the universal education of Languages, Science, History and the Arts.

Are there any proposals in Baha'i about overcoming the "dark aspects" of human nature as it concerns education. . .?

In the Baha'i Faith the answer is to develop universal spiritual attributes of God. Love, Justice, Equality, Compassion, Diversity and Plurality to name a few.

“educate the souls of men, and refine the character of every living man… ”

Dark aspects of human nature---I agree with what you have said---humanity has the potential for good and the potential for bad---religions/philosophies throughout time have striven (Jihad) to encourage humanity towards the good and discourage it from bad. This has been done by encouraging good conduct at the individual level (manners, ettiquette, decorum...) and through rules and laws at a social/community level....

ok

Different world religions/paradigms have articulated this problem and its answer/s in different ways---and all are uniquely interesting perspectives. Islam also has its own articulation. As explained previously---it is encapsulated in the concept of Shirk (Division) = Many Gods. There is a Quranic story that explains this concept----It is about Adam and Iblis (Iblis is a previous creation to Adam). To summarize, When God created Adam, he taught Adam knowledge. Then Adam was asked to display the knowledge taught to him, and after that display, the other entities/creations were asked to bow to Adam. Iblis refused claiming that Adam was made of clay, while he (Iblis) was made of smokeless fire---a superior material.----This claim of superiority was an arbitrary claim without substance. God has created all---and none is inferior/superior to the other. This type of reasoning was called "Iblisi Logic" by the philosopher Al Ghazali.

Iblisi Logic creates divisions between humanity by proposing some are more entitled than others---this assumption can be seen in the Magna Carta, in the thinking and writing of many enlightenment philosophers and even today, in many statements and attitudes of peoples and scholars.......It enables toxic ideas such as White Man's Burden (U.K.), Civilizing Mission (France, Portugal etc) and Manifest Destiny (U.S.) ---(All used to justify colonization---the act of stealing resources and exploiting other peoples) which today is called "American Exceptionalism" and U.S. Presidents still use it in their speeches.....

Your all over the place here and not on the subject. Colonization in the past is not an issue here when we are talking about equal opportunity of girls and boys, which is a reality in the west and increasing with time. IT is not in Islamic countries. The only countries in Islam that are beginning to offer universal education are countries like Turkey and Egypt with more secular governments.

That is why "Equality" in Modernity has been defined in terms of equality of opportunity or equality of outcome---which means that "equal" education means that everyone can have the "opportunity" to go to school and/or to graduate from school. BUT---it does not address the inherent INEQUALITY in the quality of the schools (infrastructure) or the quality of the education nor does it address the unjust laws that have enabled such systemic inequality to occur nor the economic inequalities that cause and perpetuate the cycle....

YES it does address the inherent INEQUALITY of the schools, which is progressively increasing in western countries. Your dodging the BIG problem. That is the lack of universal education for ALL children in Islamic countries.

Also the fact that the principle of equal and universal education first promulgated by Baha'i scripture has become the standard of Western Countries. You're picking at problems which are real, and neglecting the main issue. The opportunity for equal education is increasing in the west, but it is NOT the promulgated goal in most Islamic countries, because it is not a fundamental principle and goal in Islamic scripture.

Please Address the issue!


You're misusing this old worn out concept of 'Modernity' continues, and it is getting you nowhere. You have not addressed the issue that equal universal education of girls and boys is only present to a limited extent available in Islamic countries with limited secular governments.

This can be seen in how "desegregation" of schools in the U.S. was handled---it was about giving black children the "opportunity" to go to white schools---but the underlying structural problems that caused the injustice and inequality in education have never been addressed.....

Citing problems, which are progressively being reduced in the West is avoiding the real up front problems of the lack of equal and universal education in the Islamic world.

Your picking at problems, some true some exaggerated. The bottom line is equal education is increasing in the West, and the equal education of girls and boys is pretty much universal. It is not in Islam.

This mismatch between the Islamic concept of equality (equivalent worth) and the "Modern" definition was understood by some Muslim women's rights activists/scholars---they recognized this discrepancy early on and thus declined "Western feminism" as inadequate.....To limit the understanding of equality to opportunities and/or outcomes fails to understand the reality of (non-gendered) systems of power structures that cause injustice and oppression through exclusive entitlements and privileges.
(---see works of scholars such as Dr Amina Wadud, Aziza Al Hibri and others....)

You're bring up other issues, some real and some dated and some not. You're missing the bottom line. The equality of education is increasing in the west. It is widely none existent in Islamic countries. The accusations of 'Western feminism" is bogus, when the social and legal opportunity for women does not exist in most Islamic countries. The issue is equal opportunity for education, and equal social and legal protection, which only exists in countries with secular governments

This analyses some U.S. data...
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/dat...te-and-unequal

Does not address the basic issue at hand.

[siam]

It is nice that Bahai thinking is making positive contributions to humanity.

If I understand you correctly...you are making an interesting claim....That "Modernity" is based on Bahai principles, one of which is universal education....and by "universal" you mean that both genders are educated. Right or wrong...let us accept this premise for the moment....

What is the Bahai concept of "equality"?
The right to "equal" education is based upon what you refer to as "first spiritual law" (is this a Bahai term?) so, what is the purpose/goal of education in Bahai philosophy/"Spiritual law"?
Are there any proposals in Bahai about overcoming the "dark aspects" of human nature as it concerns education....?.....

The problem in reality is that Islam does not encourage and in some cases even allow diversity.

What you call 'Modernity' is puzzling. Most of the characteristics of what you call 'Modernity' such as; corruption, materialism, hedonism, and cruel hierarchies are the some negative dark aspects of human nature ever since humanity became human. There is a modern world that is evolving and adopting Universal Baha'i teachings, which actually necessary for the spiritual advancement of humanity.

The problem you have failed to address is the 'modern' principles proposed by the Baha'i Faith, such as universal education, have been endorsed by the Western world and not the Islamic world.

The elected structure of the Baha'i Faith reduces the possibility of the negative aspects of human nature from corrupting the religion.

Dark aspects of human nature---I agree with what you have said---humanity has the potential for good and the potential for bad---religions/philosophies throughout time have striven (Jihad) to encourage humanity towards the good and discourage it from bad. This has been done by encouraging good conduct at the individual level (manners, ettiquette, decorum...) and through rules and laws at a social/community level....

Different world religions/paradigms have articulated this problem and its answer/s in different ways---and all are uniquely interesting perspectives. Islam also has its own articulation. As explained previously---it is encapsulated in the concept of Shirk (Division) = Many Gods. There is a Quranic story that explains this concept----It is about Adam and Iblis (Iblis is a previous creation to Adam). To summarize, When God created Adam, he taught Adam knowledge. Then Adam was asked to display the knowledge taught to him, and after that display, the other entities/creations were asked to bow to Adam. Iblis refused claiming that Adam was made of clay, while he (Iblis) was made of smokeless fire---a superior material.----This claim of superiority was an arbitrary claim without substance. God has created all---and none is inferior/superior to the other. This type of reasoning was called "Iblisi Logic" by the philosopher Al Ghazali.

Iblisi Logic creates divisions between humanity by proposing some are more entitled than others---this assumption can be seen in the Magna Carta, in the thinking and writing of many enlightenment philosophers and even today, in many statements and attitudes of peoples and scholars.......It enables toxic ideas such as White Man's Burden (U.K.), Civilizing Mission (France, Portugal etc) and Manifest Destiny (U.S.) ---(All used to justify colonization---the act of stealing resources and exploiting other peoples) which today is called "American Exceptionalism" and U.S. Presidents still use it in their speeches.....

That is why "Equality" in Modernity has been defined in terms of equality of opportunity or equality of outcome---which means that "equal" education means that everyone can have the "opportunity" to go to school and/or to graduate from school. BUT---it does not address the inherent INEQUALITY in the quality of the schools (infrastructure) or the quality of the education nor does it address the unjust laws that have enabled such systemic inequality to occur nor the economic inequalities that cause and perpetuate the cycle....

This can be seen in how "desegregation" of schools in the U.S. was handled---it was about giving black children the "opportunity" to go to white schools---but the underlying structural problems that caused the injustice and inequality in education have never been addressed.....

This mismatch between the Islamic concept of equality (equivalent worth) and the "Modern" definition was understood by some Muslim women's rights activists/scholars---they recognized this discrepancy early on and thus declined "Western feminism" as inadequate.....To limit the understanding of equality to opportunities and/or outcomes fails to understand the reality of (non-gendered) systems of power structures that cause injustice and oppression through exclusive entitlements and privileges.
(---see works of scholars such as Dr Amina Wadud, Aziza Al Hibri and others....)

This analyses some U.S. data...
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/dat...te-and-unequal

[shunyadragon]

IMO, Humanity needs a paradigm shift...not one in which a singular paradigm is forced onto everyone...but a plurality of ideas where each paradigm competes with the other for best results (in terms of tangible benefits to humanity and all of God's creation). Interfaith dialogue here in the East is grappling with such ideas for the future....a vision of a world where humanity can come together to offer, try out, and share --- different solutions to the problems of today and the future...

so we both agree.....
....good..... [

The problem in reality is that Islam does not encourage and in some cases even allow diversity.

How do Bahai propose to implement this vision?
what is are the ethico-moral principles, what are their categories, how will they be implemented in formulating ethical systems of politics, economics, societies...?....
what is the Bahai conception of Justice and related methodologies of arriving at (ethical/moral) laws.....

The foundation of the Baha'i Faith is its scripture and principles and spiritual laws it teaches that in reality influence the evolving changing world that has radically changed since the middle of the 19th century.

The Baha'i Faith was the first to reveal the spiritual law that 'all children, male and female must receive education and equal education.' This has become the standard in all western countries and in the Orient. In the Islamic world many countries have not endorsed this principle, and in some girls are denied education.

The Baha'i Faith is the first religion to absolutely forbid ALL forms of slavery and indentured servitude. There were efforts in some countries to make slavery against the law, but forms of slavery persisted in colonies. This has become the international standard for the world.

The Baha'i Faith proposed the need for International Standards for the future of a world with an international character.

The relative nature of human knowledge that evolves and changes over time is an important principle that the evolving human knowledge of truth is relative with time.

Many of the other principles and teachings have become the international standard over the past 160 years.

The teachings of the Baha'i Faith have spread throughout the world in the past ~160 years, and the world has changed.

The Baha'i Faith proposes an elected structure based on bodies of nine believers beginning at the local level, and extending to the international level, and not hierarchal structures based on clergy.

are there any proposals among Bahai scholars or members for correcting some of the excesses of modernity?---and what are those excesses?

What you call 'Modernity' is puzzling. Most of the characteristics of what you call 'Modernity' such as; corruption, materialism, hedonism, and cruel hierarchies are the some negative dark aspects of human nature ever since humanity became human. There is a modern world that is evolving and adopting Universal Baha'i teachings, which actually necessary for the spiritual advancement of humanity.

The problem you have failed to address is the 'modern' principles proposed by the Baha'i Faith, such as universal education, have been endorsed by the Western world and not the Islamic world.

The elected structure of the Baha'i Faith reduces the possibility of the negative aspects of human nature from corrupting the religion.