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Quran: Jesus crucified?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    Tafsir---We will have to agree to disagree on Tafsir. However, it is possible your opinion might be based on some misunderstanding so I will attempt to give a simple background on Tafsir:- (for more info search "Tafsir") To Muslims, the Quran is a revelation. This means that the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is not considered its author. The Quran itself encourages the pursuit of knowledge as well as reflection on its verses and asking questions. During the time of its revelation (approx 20 yr period) questions were asked, and discussions took place. Some questions were answered by the Quran---this would be revelation. Some verses were explained by the Prophet. These are collected in a body of work called ahadith (Sayings of the Prophet). Some of these were the first Tafsir (explanations) (The sayings of the Prophet are NOT revelation/Quran).

    Other things that help to put the Quran in context are the Sira (Biography of the Prophet) and the Sunna (the way of the Prophet). Semantics, literary analysis, and interpretations of metaphors, symbolism...etc were added by scholars. Tafsir makes it easy for average Muslims like me to understand the Quran in context. However, it is not a requirement for a Muslim to read the Quran with Tafsir as the Quran is internally consistent and it defines its own concept words.
    If that were so, you would not have felt the need to appeal to Tafsir in order to explain to me what the Qur'an means by the various passages we have discussed.

    aHadith---These are a collection of the "sayings" of the Prophet. They were collected many years after his death and so they have varying degrees of authenticity depending on their chain of narration. Context is very important in understanding hadith otherwise it distorts the meaning/intent. (Dr Jonathan Brown explains the topic on the net) Do Christians have many exegesis? If so, are there any particular ones you use/favor?
    Christians do have libraries full of exegesis, but none of them are considered necessary for interpreting the Bible. None of them are authoritative; all are only as good as the explanations they give. The Bible warns Christians not to think too highly of distinctions between themselves based on doctrine or personality or tradition:
    Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

    What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building. By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it...

    Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”; and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas [Jesus' disciple Simon Peter] or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God. (1 Corinthians 3)

    Arabic---I am not an Arab (I live in the East) so I feel lucky that I can read Quranic Arabic. I do not speak any Arabic dialects. Imran---it seems to me you are under the impression that in all of history, there is only one person that is called Imran?
    The gospels contain several men named John (Jesus' relative who baptized him, Jesus' young disciple, Paul's companion), and several women named Mary/Miriam (Moses' sister, Jesus' mother, Martha's sister, Mary of Magdala). If I read outside the Bible that Mary, sister of Martha, was from Magdala, the most likely explanation is that the Mary who is Martha's sister has been confused with the Mary from Madgala. Similarly, when one text in the Qur'an calls Jesus' mother the sister of Aaron, and another text in the Qur'an gives her father the same name as Aaron's mother, the most likely explanation is that Mary, mother of Jesus, has been confused with Miriam, sister of Moses and Aaron.

    Such confusion is perfectly understandable, inasmuch as Muhammad is believed to have been illiterate and was reporting thirdhand stories about the tales of Christians and Jews. The Qur'an shows a similar confusion in its critique of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, which claims that Christians consider the Trinity to consist of the Father, the Son, and Mary:
    They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded. (Surah 5:73-75)

    The comment about Mary and Jesus eating food is supposed to be proof that they are not God or gods. This comment would be irrelevant if the author did not believe that Jesus and Mary were held, by Christians, to be divine. And the author is half-right; Christians do believe Jesus is God. But not Mary. There may have been some weird sect of pseudo-Christians who believed that Mary was the third member of the Trinity, but no educated Muslim today would claim that is a feature of normal Christianity. Yet the Qur'an critiques "Jesus was God" and "Mary was God" with equal vigor, as if both were standard Christian beliefs:
    And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. (Surah 5:117)

    Even Abu al-Qasim Mahmud ibn Umar al-Zamakhshari, commenting on the Qur'an during the 11th century, claims that Christians think Mary is the third person of the Trinity. I trust that you know better though, Siam. The third person of the Trinity is not Mary, but the Holy Spirit, which refers not to God's creation the angel Gabriel, but to a person who is God himself.

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    • #92
      @ Pentecost

      If eschatology is the entire reason for history---then what is the reason for us (you and me...the individual) to live on earth today?

      Comment


      • #93
        @ RBerman

        It is amusing that you, a Christian, want to insist on how I, a Muslim, should read and interpret MY sacred texts and then presume to know my intentions as well.

        "...it is impossible for anyone to begin to learn that which he thinks he already knows."---Epictetus.

        If you feel that your views about Islam, Quran, Muslims are correct and my views on my own religion, my own sacred book and my own experience in living my faith are incorrect----then there is not much point in further discussions is there?

        As for all of your points---Christian missionaries have tried those arguments (and many many others) for years and Muslim scholars have replied to all of them. I won't go into them as I am too lazy and its too tedious. But this stuff is on the net and anyone interested can look it up. I am satisfied with the Muslim responses....I have also given my responses with regards to crucifixion, incarnation, Holy Spirit and the subject of love,...further discussions will only be a repetition....and therefore uninteresting............do you have any other interesting questions that we have not yet covered....?....

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        • #94
          Originally posted by siam View Post
          @ RBerman

          It is amusing that you, a Christian, want to insist on how I, a Muslim, should read and interpret MY sacred texts and then presume to know my intentions as well.

          "...it is impossible for anyone to begin to learn that which he thinks he already knows."---Epictetus.

          If you feel that your views about Islam, Quran, Muslims are correct and my views on my own religion, my own sacred book and my own experience in living my faith are incorrect----then there is not much point in further discussions is there?

          As for all of your points---Christian missionaries have tried those arguments (and many many others) for years and Muslim scholars have replied to all of them. I won't go into them as I am too lazy and its too tedious. But this stuff is on the net and anyone interested can look it up. I am satisfied with the Muslim responses....I have also given my responses with regards to crucifixion, incarnation, Holy Spirit and the subject of love,...further discussions will only be a repetition....and therefore uninteresting............do you have any other interesting questions that we have not yet covered....?....
          Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I do not have any further ones.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by siam View Post
            <snip>
            From this context, what the Quran is implying is that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was not a false Prophet since God prevented his death at the hands of Jews as he would be expected to do of a true Prophet.
            In the Christian New Testament, the gospel according to Apostle and prophet John, writes Jesus' words, " No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." -- John 10:18.In other words, if the prophet and Christ Jesus was crucified as Christians believe, it was not because men were able to take his life from him.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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