Quran: Jesus crucified?

[Pentecost]

The Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Churches both still exist, but a large par of the Churhes of the East returned to communion (a sort of oneness) with the Catholics fairly recently, and the Oriental are largely considered to be within the bounds of orthodoxy (now a days they are mostly known as "Copts" in Egypt) and while historically divided from the Eastern Orthodox, from where I sit I cannot distinguish between them.

They hold to the New Testament, Old Testament and the Apocrypha. Same as the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. The different Christogies are now commonly seen as close enough to "count" so to say. They hold to the same basics I do.

The Anglicans are Protestant, but largely either "Liberal" meaning they are orthopraxic (act right) but no orthodox (believe right), or they are Catholic in all but name.

I am Evangelical. It refers to Protestants that hold to the Fundamentals of the faith and believe in a powerful need for evangelism (spreading the gospel).

The "emergent church" does not mean much of anything as far as I can tell, it is only a term for the societal changes in Western Christianity so far this century. It is not wholy good nor bad.

On Baptism, more or less. But there is debate on whether it is necessary for salvation, or symbolic of an already existing salvation, or if it should be done to infants, and now much water should be used.

The Catholic Pope makes the claim that Catholicism speaks for God but Protestants typically reject any such notion.

[siam]

Evangelical---My understanding is that Evangelicals are more exclusivist and hold to a more literal interpretation of the Bible. But from your comments you seem comfortable with symbolism/metaphors and with different interpretations (inclusive)...is this because of your tradition of Pentecostalism or is this an individual predisposition?

[Pentecost]

Pentecostals are generally of an even more literalist and conservative view points on matters of Scripture. And indeed, I am very exclusivist and very literal. If Evangelicals are conservative Protestants, then I am a conservative Evangelical, however, I recognize that one does not need to be as conservative as I am, only to hold to the minimums of orthodoxy, and preferably a personal relationship with The Lord Jesus (I am uncertain how necessary that is for salvation. Definitely good for a healthy life). To that end, I mistrust the large Mainline churches (for example) as being too liberal and not taking our resurrected Lord seriously.

I am open to the possibility of certain symbolisms, Chapters 1-2 of Genesis for example, however I personally interpret it as literal. This is done in the spirit of ecumenism, that is seeking a deeper level of unity within Christ's church, which is important to Pentecostalism because a hundred years ago we were a fledgling tradition and usually thrown out of churches and denounced as heretics, now a hundred years later having a significant portion of the world Christian population, we are still reconciliatory, and have even allowed the General Secretary of the World Council of Churches (very liberal organization) to speak at our conferences.

If I am not clear, liberal and conservative refers to how loose or strict one interprets the Scriptures.

[RBerman]

In my opinion, God's love for all humanity as obvious/self-evident.

It sounds like you personally are willing to affirm God's love, but it's not a subject that the Qur'an actually addresses. Do the Hadith?

---The subject that is of more interest, when considering love is, how can humanity love God./reciprocate God's love "Taqwa" is the concept that translates into English as God-awareness or awe of God---and more specifically, the desire to please God (love) and the fear of dissapointing God. A person who has Taqwa is called a mutaqueen. The opening verses of Surah 2 say that the Quran is addressed to the mutaqeen. A mutaqeen will have different degrees of Taqwa (love of God). The highest level of spirituality is called Ihsan and means beautiful actions---love of God (intentions) motivates beautiful actions...this is the highest form of worship. It is understood as worship(in actions/deeds) of God as if you see him, but if not, to know he sees you. The Quran refers to such a person as muhsin.

It's not obvious to me that "awe of God" and "love for God" are the same thing, nor "loving" and "wanting to please." Awe is a concept closely akin to fear. A tornado or elephant stampede has awesome power, and you'd better get out of its way, not because you love it, but because it will mess you up if you don't order your life so as to avoid its consequences. As I read through Surah 2, it's not obvious to me which verses mention anyone loving God. It focuses on the danger of error and the rewards awaiting the obedient.

[siam]

@RBerman
The Quran does talk of "love", the focus of the subject is probably different from Christianity.

For a very in-depth look at this subject see---Love in the Quran by HRH Prince Ghazi (altafsir.com)

For easier reads---you can search for William Chittick -he has short articles on the subject.

or...read....surah 93, surah 55, surah 87......

The Sufis are more interested in the subject of Love---such as Rabia Al-Basri, Ibn Arabi, Hafiz, Rumi...etc (Though it mostly revolves around how we can love God)
Some examples--
"I believe in the religion of Love
whatever direction its caravans may take
for love is my religion, my faith" ---Ibn Arabi

"What Allah said to the rose
and caused it to laugh
in full blown beauty
He said to my heart
and made it a hundred times more beautiful"---Rumi

"If I adore You out of fear of Hell,
Burn me in Hell!
If I adore you out of desire for Paradise,
Lock me out of Paradise.
But if I adore you for Yourself alone,
Do not deny to me Your eternal beauty."---Rabia Al Basri.

Awe---Much is lost in translation. Many concept-words are in Arabic and when translated into English, they sometimes take on Christian-centric implications that do not quite fit right. If you feel awe is incorrect, I am fine with using another word you suggest or the Arabic Taqwa, or simply leaving it open-ended as God-awareness.........

Surah 2---I appreciate your interest in the Quran. Thankyou. This Surah begins by analyzing human nature, then brings up the point that humility and gratitude are the hallmarks of a person of Taqwa and arrogance and pride those of the Rebel (Kafir) and God is most forgiving---story of Adam & Iblis. (the story is explained in more detail in Surah 7 verses 11-25) This is carried over into the stories of the Jewish people and the lessens the new community can learn from them. This is also an early Medina Surah so there is some legal stuff. (it was a time when a new community was being formed---3,4,5 also have legal advice if I remember correctly--this was also a period when there were battles with the Meccans so these themes also come up---Battle of Badr(624CE), battle of Uhud 625CE), battle of the Trench (627CE))

The word "deen" translated as religion is understood as "way of life" and the Quran is Guidance for it, that is, its main purpose is to set up a framework of ethico-moral principles for Guidance. The starting point of all Quranic principles is Tawheed (Unity).

In general, there is a lot of stuff on the subject of Paradise and Hell throughout the Quran.---apparently the polytheists of the region did not have a concept of an afterlife. The juxtaposition of Paradise and Hell consecutively may also serve as a literary device to make people/listeners pay attention......

@Pentecost---Literal, conservative.....are you Young earth creationist (YEC)?

[siam]

@ Pentecost
what meaning/symbolism does the "resurrected Lord" have for you?

[Pentecost]

I am indeed a Young Earth Creationist, although I admit that it is not a necessary belief for salvation.

The resurrection of my Lord Jesus is the heart of Christian theology. If He just died then He would have been another false prophet. Either a liar, a lunatic, or both. Jesus rising from the grave defeated sin and death for all those who believe in Him, and proving Him true, not only His claim that He would rise in three days, but also that He was speaking the truth when He claimed Godhood. He proved the Gospel immeasurably, and showed the first fruit of the new Creation that is yet to come. God is with us, and not only is He with us, He LOVES US! He met death for us; and defeated it. The time will come where death will die and it will be a glorious day.

[RBerman]

The Quran does talk of "love", the focus of the subject is probably different from Christianity. For a very in-depth look at this subject see---Love in the Quran by HRH Prince Ghazi (altafsir.com)

Thanks for the link. Obviously I haven't read the whole book by Ghazi yet. I do see that in his preface (page xxiii) he quotes a hadith that reports God as saying, "I was a hidden treasure; I loved (a=babtu) to be known; therefore, I created creation so that I would be known.” Of course, this speaks more to God's desire to be known by man than to God's love for man. Ghazi does mention that one of God's names, al-Wudud, means "love." With a little research, I see that this word appears in Surah 85:14: "And He is the Forgiving, the Affectionate..." The passage doesn't explain toward whom God is loving, or under what conditions, but it is something at least.

read surah 93, surah 55, surah 87......

Surah 93 is about God's protection of and provision for Muhammad. Surah 55 is about God's work in creation, and the punishment awaiting the wicked, and the rewards awaiting the obedient. Surah 87 is also about the rewards of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked. I didn't see any verses about God's love, though.

The Sufis are more interested in the subject of Love---such as Rabia Al-Basri, Ibn Arabi, Hafiz, Rumi...etc (Though it mostly revolves around how we can love God)...

I am aware that the Sufi tradition focuses more on experiential ideas about God, such as the love for God expressed by these lovely poets you quoted. As you say, none of those discuss God's love for man.

As for your question about how taqwa should be translated, I wouldn't hold myself as one to ask. Can you give an example of an Islamic scholar who translates it as "love"?

Surah 2 begins by analyzing human nature, then brings up the point that humility and gratitude are the hallmarks of a person of Taqwa and arrogance and pride those of the Rebel (Kafir) and God is most forgiving---story of Adam & Iblis. (the story is explained in more detail in Surah 7 verses 11-25) This is carried over into the stories of the Jewish people and the lessens the new community can learn from them. This is also an early Medina Surah so there is some legal stuff. (it was a time when a new community was being formed---3,4,5 also have legal advice if I remember correctly--this was also a period when there were battles with the Meccans so these themes also come up---Battle of Badr(624CE), battle of Uhud 625CE), battle of the Trench (627CE))

The Qur'an does describe God as merciful and forgiving, but I don't see that as the same as love. For instance, a king might show merciful forgiveness to one of his wayward subjects not out of love, but rather to instill a sense of loyalty, or because the servant does other valuable things, etc. So as best I can see, Surah 2 does not speak to the question of whether God loves any or all men.

The word "deen" translated as religion is understood as "way of life" and the Quran is Guidance for it, that is, its main purpose is to set up a framework of ethico-moral principles for Guidance. The starting point of all Quranic principles is Tawheed (Unity). In general, there is a lot of stuff on the subject of Paradise and Hell throughout the Quran.---apparently the polytheists of the region did not have a concept of an afterlife. The juxtaposition of Paradise and Hell consecutively may also serve as a literary device to make people/listeners pay attention.

Ghazi appeals to tawheed to essentially say, "If love exists, then God must be loving, because God is the source of all." I can affirm such a statement on philosophical grounds, but again what I was looking for was an explicit Qur'anic statment along the lines of these found in the Bible. There are literally hundreds more, but here are a few that might give us a basis for further discussion:

Genesis 39:12 But the Lord was with Joseph and showed him steadfast love and gave him favor in the sight of the keeper of the prison.

Exodus 15:13 “You have led in your steadfast love the people whom you have redeemed; you have guided them by your strength to your holy abode."

Numbers 14:19 "Please pardon the iniquity of this people, according to the greatness of your steadfast love, just as you have forgiven this people, from Egypt until now.”

Deuteronomy 7:7-8, 13 It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the Lord loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt... He will love you, bless you, and multiply you. He will also bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your wine and your oil, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock, in the land that he swore to your fathers to give you.

Deuteronomy 10:18 He executes justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the sojourner, giving him food and clothing.

Deuteronomy 23:5 ...the Lord your God turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the Lord your God loved you.

2 Samuel 12:24-5 Then David comforted his wife, Bathsheba, and went in to her and lay with her, and she bore a son, and he called his name Solomon. And the Lord loved him and sent a message by Nathan the prophet. So he called his name Jedidiah ["beloved of God"], because of the Lord.

Proverbs 3:12 the Lord reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.

Isaiah 38:17 In love you have delivered my life from the pit of destruction, for you have cast all my sins behind your back.

Daniel 9:23 At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved.

Hosea 11:1-4 When [the nation] Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son...
Yet it was I who taught [the tribe of] Ephraim to walk;
I took them up by their arms,
but they did not know that I healed them.
I led them with cords of kindness,
with the bands of love...

John 3:16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.

John 5:20 The Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing.

Romans 1:7 To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints...

Romans 5:8 God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 8:35-9 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?... No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 1:4-6 In love [God] predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Ephesians 2:1-7 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, ... and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 5:1-2, 25 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us... Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.

1 Thessalonians 1:2-4 We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers,... For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you...

2 Thessalonians 2:16-17 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts...

Hebrews 12:5-7 have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

1 John 4:7-19 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another...So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him...We love because he first loved us.

[RBerman]

I am indeed a Young Earth Creationist, although I admit that it is not a necessary belief for salvation.

The resurrection of my Lord Jesus is the heart of Christian theology. If He just died then He would have been another false prophet. Either a liar, a lunatic, or both. Jesus rising from the grave defeated sin and death for all those who believe in Him, and proving Him true, not only His claim that He would rise in three days, but also that He was speaking the truth when He claimed Godhood. He proved the Gospel immeasurably, and showed the first fruit of the new Creation that is yet to come. God is with us, and not only is He with us, He LOVES US! He met death for us; and defeated it. The time will come where death will die and it will be a glorious day.

A more basic point to be discussed before (or at least while) hitting the resurrection: Jesus really died. He was not replaced by somebody else. He did not cheat death or just seem to die. He died, for real. In addition to the four gospel accounts of his death and burial, we have verses like:

Acts 2:23-24,36 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it... God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Acts 3:15,18 you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses... what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled.

Acts 4:10 ...by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead...

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered...

Acts 8:32-33 Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter... For his life is taken away from the earth.

Acts 10:39-41 They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.

Acts 13:28-30 And though they found in him no guilt worthy of death, they asked Pilate to have him executed. And when they had carried out all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead...

Acts 17:31 "[God] has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

Acts 26:22-23 "I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass: that the Christ must suffer and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to our people and to the Gentiles.”

Romans 5:6-10 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Romans 6:3-10 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old selfa was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set freeb from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 7:4 My brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

Romans 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

1 Corinthians 2:2 I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

1 Corinthians 11:26 as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

1 Corinthians 15: I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures... Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead.

Ephesians 1:19-20 ...according to the working of [God's] great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead...

Philippians 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Phil 3:10 [I] may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death...

Colossians 1:21-22 ...you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him...

Colossians 2:11-12,20 you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, [Jesus] has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him... If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world...?

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.

Hebrews 2:9, 14-15 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone... through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil..

Hebrews 9:27-28 just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Hebrews 13:20 ...the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus...

1 Peter 1:3 ...[God] has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead...

1 Peter 2:24 ...He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree...

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also sufferedb once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit...

1 John 3:16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us...

Revelation 1:17-18 "...Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore..."

Revelation 5:9 “Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God...

[siam]

@RBerman
Reading Ghazi---Wow....seems you are really interested. If you try to leave aside your own cultural/philosophical
(Christian-centric)constructs, then you will be open to see a different perspective and perhaps get a feel for the
different framework under which the Quran discusses various subjects. Think of it as an adventure in exploring a
different paradigm.....?......

The different framework---Caring, Compassion, Mercy, Protection, Nurturing, Guidance....etc are all components
of love. Love can be understood in the abstract, or it can be understood in how it is applied/practiced. A parent
who nurses a sick child or a parent that spends time doing an activity with the child, is one whose actions show
love. Such actions may be mundane and therefore taken for granted, overlooked, or disregarded.

Grand gestures of love are more memorable.......

There are many ways to see/understand the subject of love. You gave an example of the King forgiving the
subject....another idea is discussed by William Blake

"Love seeketh not itself to please,
Nor for itself hath any care,
But for another gives its ease,
And builds a Heaven in Hell's despair."

So sung a little Clod of Clay
Trodden with the cattle's feet,
But a Pebble of the brook
Warbled out these metres meet:

"Love seeketh only self to please,
To bind another to its delight,
Joys in another's loss of ease,
And builds a Hell in Heaven's despite."

One might say that an excessively sacrificial love is unbalanced because the self is unimportant and disregarded.
An excessively selfish love is unbalanced because the other/partner is unimportant and disregarded.

The Quran also has its own reflections on Love. (IMO), the concepts in the Quran are balanced by being paired.
So when one is speaking of love in terms of Compassion and Mercy, this concept is paired with Justice so that
they balance each other. Justice is tempered with Compassion /Mercy......this way, neither falls into excess.

Creation---All of creation symbolizes God's love.---that humanity exists is because God loves.(Sufi). Why else
are we able to breathe, eat, have shelter, have paths to travel, companions/friends for ease,...etc......it is so self-evident.
We can choose to see it this way, or
...we can take existence for granted and overlook, disregard or abuse it. If we understand all of creation as
God's love and that God's love encompasses all of creation----then we (human beings) may be better able to
accomplish God's will which is to have right intentions and actions that benefit all of God's creations.

Taqwa(God-awareness/love of God)---the characteristics of a person of Taqwa are explained in Quran 2:177

2:177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in
Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of
love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of
slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfill the contracts which ye have made; and to
be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people
of truth, the Allah-fearing. ---(Yusuf Ali translation)

Taqwa(God-awareness) is a state that can also be achieved in the Muslim practice of Ramadan (fasting). When
human beings stop paying so much attention to the self/ego---they are more open to being aware of God.

There is a lot written about the concept of Taqwa ---if you search the word---I think you will find much.

Thankyou for the quotes from the Bible.

I can mostly agree with the quotes from Genesis to Hosea---If God's love was interpreted as inclusive rather than
exclusive.

I would have to disagree with John 3:16 and a few others.....

Also---the concept of blessings and trials is slightly different. All experiences good and bad are tests from God,
most compassionate, most merciful. So, we need to be careful in placing value-judgements on our life
experiences because it may lead to arrogance and pride. (....that God's love belongs exclusively to me/us and
not others)

Resurrection---Thankyou for the quotes...though, so many bible quotes are a bit overwhelming......I would like to
reflect before I answer.

[Pentecost]

Indeed, RBerman is correct that my entire point is moot if Christ never died, or if He deserved death. But the Bible is trustworthy testimony that has been maintained for millennia, with the disciples of Christ themselves claiming to witness His (very shameful) death, and then His miraculous resurrected body. His bodily death was witnessed by many and is a historical fact, and because of His embarrassing death when it seemed to his followers He was promising a political revolution, and they were being persecuted by people such as Saul of Tarsus, a Pharisee, the faith should have died. Instead Christ, '..opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”' (Luke 24:45-49 ESV)

'But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."' (Acts 9:1-5 ESV)

'...and taking food, he was strengthened. For some days he was with the disciples at Damascus. And immediately he proclaimed Jesus in the synagogues, saying, “He is the Son of God.” And all who heard him were amazed and said, “Is not this the man who made havoc in Jerusalem of those who called upon this name? And has he not come here for this purpose, to bring them bound before the chief priests?” But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Christ.' (Acts 9:19-22 ESV)
---
Some small notes, Luke was a physician who set out to write a history of Jesus in what marked as "Luke," and a history of the Acts of the Apostles in what is marked as "Acts." Second, "the Way" is a title for Jesus, and the earliest of Christians were know as followers of the Way. Last, "ESV" designated that I am using the English standard version translation of these ancient documents.
---
The resurrection had also made Saul the worst of sinners into one of the great heroes of Christianity, who proceeded to write a significant portion of the New Testament and spread the faith widely amongst the Gentiles .

[RBerman]

Reading Ghazi---Wow....seems you are really interested. If you try to leave aside your own cultural/philosophical (Christian-centric)constructs, then you will be open to see a different perspective and perhaps get a feel for the different framework under which the Quran discusses various subjects. Think of it as an adventure in exploring a different paradigm?

I do want to understand your framework. On Page 11, Ghazi offers his definition of love: "‘an inclination towards beauty after being pleased (i’jab) by it." That's a very different definition of love than a Christian would offer, as I'll discuss below. To a Christian, Ghazi's definition sounds much more like desire, or even lust, than love. The English word "love" is much more vague than the Greek words for love used in the New Testament: phileo is affection and brotherhood, eros is desire (similar it seems to the arabic word), and agape is sacrificial love, the love that God has for man and that we must have toward each other. I suppose it might sound to a Muslim like shirk to describe God as having a sacrificial love.

Ghazi goes on to quote Ghazali, who says that the inclination toward the beautiful implies imperfection in the one experiencing the inclination, "and this is impossible for God;" instead God's love consists of God drawing men to love Himself more. He reiterates the point on page 13: "it cannot be said that God ‘inclines.’" If I understand Ghazi properly, he's saying that God, being perfect already, can't really delight in man, but only encourage man to delight in God. That's a very different view of God's attitude and faculties than found in Christianity, which describes God as delighting in his children like a perfect Father. That special love is one aspect of the Bible's father/son language with respect to Jesus. I trust you're aware that Christians don't believe that Jesus was conceived by a sexual act between God and Mary?

The different framework---Caring, Compassion, Mercy, Protection, Nurturing, Guidance....etc are all components of love. Love can be understood in the abstract, or it can be understood in how it is applied/practiced. A parent who nurses a sick child or a parent that spends time doing an activity with the child, is one whose actions show love. Such actions may be mundane and therefore taken for granted, overlooked, or disregarded. Grand gestures of love are more memorable.

And indeed, pretty much every time in the Bible that God's love is mentioned, it's always in conjunction with some concrete thing God has done as an expression of his love. My point of all the Bible quotations was to show what I had in mind by asking whether God's love is discussed in the Qur'an. As you can see in the Bible, it's a huge focus, mentioned literally hundreds of times in both the inclusive sense (God's general love for all of creation) but also in an exclusive sense (God's special love for his chosen ones), just as a father loves his children in a special way. Ghazi seems to affirm this distinction on page 28: "God does not love certain (evil) people" and again on page 30: "if they choose the way of evil and sin, and close themselves off from God’s guidance, then they will not attain God’s mercy and love." I'm a bit confused by his qualification later on that same page: "It is thus not a question of God not loving evil people and acts, but rather of evil people freely refusing to be loved by God." How exactly do you prevent someone from loving you if they want to love you? You can prevent expressions of their love by rejecting their gifts, but that doesn't alter their love itself.

One might say that an excessively sacrificial love is unbalanced because the self is unimportant and disregarded. An excessively selfish love is unbalanced because the other/partner is unimportant and disregarded. The Quran also has its own reflections on Love. (IMO), the concepts in the Quran are balanced by being paired. So when one is speaking of love in terms of Compassion and Mercy, this concept is paired with Justice so that they balance each other. Justice is tempered with Compassion /Mercy......this way, neither falls into excess.

Again, I wasn't so much interested in what the Qur'an says about man's obligation to do acts of love for God, as I was interested in what it says about God's love for men, even for men who break God's laws.

I'm not sure what it would mean to have "excessively" sacrificial love. The Bible says that the greatest example of love is dying for someone else, like Jesus died for "his sheep." Such an act certainly "disregards" the self, but I don't see that at all as a bad thing. In fact, it's commanded of Christians:

John 15:"12-13 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends."

1 John 3:16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.

Creation---All of creation symbolizes God's love.---that humanity exists is because God loves.(Sufi). Why else are we able to breathe, eat, have shelter, have paths to travel, companions/friends for ease,...etc......it is so self-evident. We can choose to see it this way, or ...we can take existence for granted and overlook, disregard or abuse it. If we understand all of creation as God's love and that God's love encompasses all of creation----then we (human beings) may be better able to accomplish God's will which is to have right intentions and actions that benefit all of God's creations.

I can appreciate these sentiments. They seem to fall into the category of "things some Muslims believe and emphasize for philosophical reasons" rather than "things directly taught in the Qur'an."

Taqwa(God-awareness/love of God)---the characteristics of a person of Taqwa are explained in Quran 2:177

2:177 It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in
Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of
love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of
slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfill the contracts which ye have made; and to
be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people
of truth, the Allah-fearing. ---(Yusuf Ali translation)

Taqwa(God-awareness) is a state that can also be achieved in the Muslim practice of Ramadan (fasting). When human beings stop paying so much attention to the self/ego---they are more open to being aware of God. There is a lot written about the concept of Taqwa ---if you search the word---I think you will find much.

OK. So again, Taqwa appears to fall into the category of man's obligation toward God. Christianity does have such a concept, but the heart of Christianity is not what God requires of man, but rather that God met his own requirements by being incarnate as a man, living a perfect life, dying an undeserved death, and then rising from death. God doesn't set aside his requirements. God satisfies those requirements himself, and then allows his own work to be reckoned as if it were our work. That is how He shows His love for us.

Thankyou for the quotes from the Bible. I can mostly agree with the quotes from Genesis to Hosea---If God's love was interpreted as inclusive rather than exclusive. I would have to disagree with John 3:16 and a few others. Also---the concept of blessings and trials is slightly different. All experiences good and bad are tests from God, most compassionate, most merciful. So, we need to be careful in placing value-judgements on our life experiences because it may lead to arrogance and pride. (....that God's love belongs exclusively to me/us and not others)

I addressed the question of inclusive and exclusive love above. I agree that we must be cautious in our value judgments, and we certainly have no good reason to feel arrogant. God's love is supposed to make us feel humble, because we could never deserve it. That's why true Christianity abandons all thoughts of earning God's favor through our behavior. Instead, we throw ourselves on God's mercy, pleading the merits of Jesus our Savior rather than our own merits.

Resurrection---Thank you for the quotes...though, so many bible quotes are a bit overwhelming......I would like to reflect before I answer.

I understand. I wasn't trying to bombard you with lots of material with the expectation that you'd respond separately to each passage. Rather, I just wanted to show you, from the sheer weight of the texts, how central the idea of Jesus' death and resurrection is to Christianity. It was no different in the days of Muhammad; the injil, which the Qur'an (Surah 3:3, 5:46, etc.) commends, has always been about Jesus' death and resurrection. All of these Bible verses are not a late addition to the text. They are present in the earliest manuscripts.

[siam]

@Pentecost and RBerman

Though incarnation and crucifixion conflict with the premises upon which Islamic framework is built, resurrection as a concept is acceptable (disconnected from the symbolism of crucifixion).

Love-----

Yes, we Muslims are more concerned with the idea of Reciprocity---God's love is self-evident so how can humanity reciprocate? The answer to this question is of most interest to Muslims. Therefore the Christian and Muslim perspective on the subject of love is probably different.

Beauty---In a previous post I mentioned the concept of Ihsan (Beautiful actions) This is the highest form of religion (way of life/arabic=deen) and Taqwa (God-awareness/love of God).
God is unseen---but his creation is seen. His creation is beautiful. It is an ayah (sign). The verses of the Quran are also ayah (signs). Likewise in the human context, love is unseen but its beautiful actions are seen---actions such as charity, caring, compassion, kindness....etc

Desire ---The soul/consciousness (nafs) experiences life through the body. How we understand and relate to the world is through the body. The body is built with desires so as to survive ---desires for food, shelter, companionship...etc. Some religions advocate for annihilation of egoic-self or detachment from (selfish) desires in order to attain closeness with the Divine. In Islam, the focus is on management of desires. God created in goodness---therefore, desires are a necessary part of life---neither good nor bad. They become bad/harmful when abused and become good/beautiful when used with Taqwa. (for ex---The desire to please God)

Agape(sacrificial love)---Excess can be harmful. To harm the self is just as bad as to harm another because God loves all (his creation) and I am God's creation equally as another.

We could posit that "sacrifice" occurs because of a lack--- for example, a loss of life can happen when a soldier lacks strength against another or adequate means of defense or power. Or when there is a lack of food, the parents decide to feed their children instead of themselves. Suicide can happen because of depression or other causes and one might posit a lack of health or help.

Sacrifice out of excess or lack shows an imbalance. In the Islamic context, neither is appropriate for God.

Anthropomorphism---(discussed previously) In Islam, God is not human. God does not have a gender. Human beings can only understand God's attributes through our human experiences but God is not limited by human experience/concepts/thoughts....these are human limitations. Because of such limitations human beings cannot comprehend the full degree of God's attributes.

God's compassion and mercy towards those who rebel---(Rebel=defined in a previous post)
"Fitra" is the Islamic concept of human nature---this posits that all humanity is created inherently good and within all human beings is embedded an inclination/remembrance of the One God. (All creation is muslim)
However, human beings have limited free-will and this "goodness" can be covered up with self-deception through arrogance/pride/ungratefulness. This turns us away from God (Taqwa)
Repentence is the means for a person in such a state to turn back towards God. God's Compassion and Mercy are constant and everpresent---it is only a question/choice of---do we desire it or not.

Surah 21 verse 35
"Say:O my servants who have transgressed against their souls, despair not of the mercy of God: for God forgives all sins for he is most forgiving, most merciful."

In the course of our lives (from birth to death) God forgives all those who ask for forgiveness.

I see Quran verses that show God's love in Ghazi, it is interesting that you did not........

Chosen people concept---the Quran discourages such a concept if it leads to exclusivity in "salvation". The Quranic position is that human beings have no right to make absolute judgements of who goes to Paradise/Hell---this is a right reserved for God alone.

Sacrificial requirements, humans underserving of God's love...etc...You are correct---the premises on which Christianity is built do not work within an Islamic framework.

Tawheed and Shirk---perhaps the concept is not clear?
Tawheed=Unity, Shirk=Division --- another way to understand it is Tawheed(Unity)=One God and Shirk(Division) = many Gods.

How these 2 concepts work within ethico-moral principles
Tawheed(Unity) posits that all creation is created by God. Only God (the creator) is superior and all (creation) are equally inferior to God---in other words, all creation are equal under God.....none superior/inferior to another. Unity is the way towards peace

Shirk(Division)---arbitrary value systems of hierarchies that give more power, superiority, benefits to one group of creation over another--thus creating divisions. This is the way towards strife.

[RBerman]

Yes, we Muslims are more concerned with the idea of Reciprocity---God's love is self-evident so how can humanity reciprocate? The answer to this question is of most interest to Muslims. Therefore the Christian and Muslim perspective on the subject of love is probably different.

Beauty---In a previous post I mentioned the concept of Ihsan (Beautiful actions) This is the highest form of religion (way of life/arabic=deen) and Taqwa (God-awareness/love of God). God is unseen---but his creation is seen. His creation is beautiful. It is an ayah (sign). The verses of the Quran are also ayah (signs). Likewise in the human context, love is unseen but its beautiful actions are seen---actions such as charity, caring, compassion, kindness....etc

Desire ---The soul/consciousness (nafs) experiences life through the body. How we understand and relate to the world is through the body. The body is built with desires so as to survive ---desires for food, shelter, companionship...etc. Some religions advocate for annihilation of egoic-self or detachment from (selfish) desires in order to attain closeness with the Divine. In Islam, the focus is on management of desires. God created in goodness---therefore, desires are a necessary part of life---neither good nor bad. They become bad/harmful when abused and become good/beautiful when used with Taqwa. (for ex---The desire to please God)

Agape(sacrificial love)---Excess can be harmful. To harm the self is just as bad as to harm another because God loves all (his creation) and I am God's creation equally as another. We could posit that "sacrifice" occurs because of a lack--- for example, a loss of life can happen when a soldier lacks strength against another or adequate means of defense or power. Or when there is a lack of food, the parents decide to feed their children instead of themselves. Suicide can happen because of depression or other causes and one might posit a lack of health or help. Sacrifice out of excess or lack shows an imbalance. In the Islamic context, neither is appropriate for God.

Anthropomorphism---(discussed previously) In Islam, God is not human. God does not have a gender. Human beings can only understand God's attributes through our human experiences but God is not limited by human experience/concepts/thoughts....these are human limitations. Because of such limitations human beings cannot comprehend the full degree of God's attributes.

God's compassion and mercy towards those who rebel---(Rebel=defined in a previous post) "Fitra" is the Islamic concept of human nature---this posits that all humanity is created inherently good and within all human beings is embedded an inclination/remembrance of the One God. (All creation is muslim) However, human beings have limited free-will and this "goodness" can be covered up with self-deception through arrogance/pride/ungratefulness. This turns us away from God (Taqwa) Repentence is the means for a person in such a state to turn back towards God. God's Compassion and Mercy are constant and everpresent---it is only a question/choice of---do we desire it or not.

Surah 21 verse 35
"Say:O my servants who have transgressed against their souls, despair not of the mercy of God: for God forgives all sins for he is most forgiving, most merciful."

In the course of our lives (from birth to death) God forgives all those who ask for forgiveness. I see Quran verses that show God's love in Ghazi, it is interesting that you did not.

Chosen people concept---the Quran discourages such a concept if it leads to exclusivity in "salvation". The Quranic position is that human beings have no right to make absolute judgements of who goes to Paradise/Hell---this is a right reserved for God alone. Sacrificial requirements, humans underserving of God's love...etc...You are correct---the premises on which Christianity is built do not work within an Islamic framework.

Tawheed and Shirk---perhaps the concept is not clear? Tawheed=Unity, Shirk=Division --- another way to understand it is Tawheed(Unity)=One God and Shirk(Division) = many Gods.

How these 2 concepts work within ethico-moral principles
Tawheed(Unity) posits that all creation is created by God. Only God (the creator) is superior and all (creation) are equally inferior to God---in other words, all creation are equal under God.....none superior/inferior to another. Unity is the way towards peace

Shirk(Division)---arbitrary value systems of hierarchies that give more power, superiority, benefits to one group of creation over another--thus creating divisions. This is the way towards strife.

We do appear to have rather different definitions of all of these basic values. I see beauty as the attribute which provokes desire. Desire does not have to be a bad thing, as you say. But desire is not the same thing as love. Desire seeks the satisfaction of the seeker. But "love (agape) does not seek its own [pleasure]" (1 Corinthians 12:5) Balance is not the goal of Christianity. The endgame of the world is the very unbalanced situation in which God's purpose is fulfilled, "which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." (Eph 1:9-10) Such a plan would be idolatrous if Christ were not in fact God.

When I say that Ghazi (in my limited reading so far) has not demonstrated Qur'anic teaching about the love of God, I'm thinking by way of comparison to the hundreds of verses in the Bible that specifically describe God as loving, as having love for particular persons, etc. As best I can tell, the forgiveness and mercy described in the Qur'an is contingent upon human behavior: If you reach some threshold of good-doing, God will favor you and overlook the times you have done wrong. In the Bible, God's threshold is perfection, and no mere human can attain it. Only God satisfies God's requirement of perfect righteousness, and his love is expressed not in forgiving some sins on the basis of other good deeds we have done. Rather, "While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:6-8) Our deeds, good or bad, play no role in God's decision to forgive sin. All that matters is his loving choice to count Jesus's perfect life as our life, and Jesus' sacrificial death as the death we deserve. God chooses to treat us as his adopted children.

[siam]

"If you reach some threshold of good-doing, God will favor you and overlook the times you have done wrong."---This is incorrect

Differences---Before my conversation with JohnnyP and Pentecost, I was under the impression that Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity. I still feel that the starting premises between our two religions are very different however, the deeper, more spiritual aspects may have similarity or convergence........