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Quran: Jesus crucified?

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  • Quran: Jesus crucified?

    Source sura: Quran 4:1-176

    Following is one Christian description of some Muslim interpretations of the crucifixion as portrayed in the Quran, and also states that the Quran itself denies the death of Jesus by crucifixion:

    The Muslim religion is one of the fastest growing religions of the world, if not the fastest. Among its many differences with Christianity is that it denies the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Whether Muslims believe in a substitution theory (another person was crucified in Jesus' place), ascension theory (Jesus was rescued from the cross and ascended to heaven), or swoon theory (Jesus did not actually die while on the cross and survived the rigors of the crucifixion), each one of them clearly denies the death of Jesus by crucifixion...

    ...Therefore the Qur’anic teaching is clearly that Jesus did not die by crucifixion, which is in direct contrast to Christianity which says there is no salvation apart from the cross -CARM
    Muslims and Christians with these views may not always consider alternate interpretations which agree with the biblical accounts. Verses in question:

    Quran 4:155-159: Then because of their breaking of their covenant, and their disbelieving in the revelations of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully, and their saying: Our hearts are hardened - Nay, but Allah set a seal upon them for their disbelief, so that they believe not save a few - (155) And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny; (156) And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. (157) But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise. (158) There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them - (159)
    The following are possible interpretations that may bring more agreement between the Bible and Quran.



    First, Jews in question are depicted as believing they have caused the death of Jesus, if not directly nailing him to the cross or killing him: "We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger." Related Bible verses showing that some Jews made or swayed the decision to send Jesus to the cross:

    Matthew 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,

    Mark 15:11 But the chief priests moved the people, that he should rather release Barabbas unto them.

    Luke 23:23 And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed.
    Then we have, "they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them;" and "they slew him not for certain." Rather than interpreting this as the Quran saying Jesus didn't die by the cross and/or wasn't on it at all, we may remember that the Bible implies that Gentiles/Roman soldiers did the actual crucifying, while some Jews merely made or swayed the decision of his crucifixion:

    Matthew 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

    Mark 15:16-20 And the soldiers led him away into the hall, called Praetorium; and they call together the whole band. And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head, And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews! And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him. And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.

    John 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
    So where the Quran speaks of some Jews not crucifying or slaying Jesus, why do we relate it to his actual being on the cross or his death on it, and not to the decision made to send him there? Given that, did some Jews actually make or sway any decision about it all on their own?

    Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

    Matthew 26:53-54 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

    John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
    The answer is no, they did not ultimately make the decision, since Jesus could have stopped it at any time. Jesus made the decision himself to allow the process of his crucifixion and death according to the will of the Father.

    Looking at it this way, the Quran is not denying the crucifixion at all here, but rather affirming that God has ultimate power over anything done on earth. It's not to say those involved had no responsibility for their decisions, but it says nothing would happen unless God allowed it, including the crucifixion.



    Elsewhere in the Quran an affirmation that Jesus would die and be resurrected, possibly relating directly back to questions raised in Quran 4:157:

    Quran 19:33-34: Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! (33) Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt. (34)


    Open for discussion, debate, poking holes in that possible interpretation, etc.

  • #2
    The Bible teaches that the Jews of that time period were more culpable for Christ's death than the Romans. These Jews of this time period delivered (paradidwmi) Christ up to Pilate (John 18:35) which constituted "the greater sin" (John 19:11). Peter would later tell the Jews in his audience they delivered (paradidwmi) Him up to Pilate (Acts 3:13; cf. Acts 3:17).

    Comment


    • #3
      Interesting interpretations JohnnyP.

      Sometimes, a religion will follow this or that interpretation and not another because it reads texts based on underlying doctrines/theology. Once we know of the underlying doctrines---it becomes more understandable why a particular interpretation is chosen over another.

      1) There is no significance or symbolism attached to Crucifixion in Islam therefore having it serves no function within an Islamic context.

      2) Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) is considered a Prophet (= messenger of God) and that he was a Jew and therefore a Prophet sent to the Jews.
      This means Deuteronomy 13 (False Prophet) may have some relevance:-

      13 “If a prophet or someone who has dreams arises among you and proclaims a sign or wonder to you, 2 and that sign or wonder he has promised you comes about, but he says, ‘Let us follow other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us worship them,’ 3 do not listen to that prophet’s words or to that dreamer. For the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul. 4 You must follow the Lord your God and fear Him. You must keep His commands and listen to His voice; you must worship Him and remain faithful[a] to Him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he has urged rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the place of slavery, to turn you from the way the Lord your God has commanded you to walk. You must purge the evil from you."

      From this context, what the Quran is implying is that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was not a false Prophet since God prevented his death at the hands of Jews as he would be expected to do of a true Prophet.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by siam View Post
        Interesting interpretations JohnnyP.

        Sometimes, a religion will follow this or that interpretation and not another because it reads texts based on underlying doctrines/theology. Once we know of the underlying doctrines---it becomes more understandable why a particular interpretation is chosen over another.

        1) There is no significance or symbolism attached to Crucifixion in Islam therefore having it serves no function within an Islamic context.
        If there is no significance why does the Quran discuss it in the first place? The crucifixion should be significant on some level. Rather, we might interpret the Quran not to say that the crucifixion didn't happen or that it isn't significant, but rather that everything in the Quran ought to be significant, and also confirms existing Scripture of the Bible, as implied from Quran 12:
        Quran 12:3 We narrate unto thee (Muhammad) the best of narratives in that We have inspired in thee this Qur'an, though aforetime thou wast of the heedless.

        Quran 12:110-111 Till, when the messengers despaired and thought that they were denied, then came unto them Our help, and whom We would was saved. And Our wrath cannot be warded from the guilty. In their history verily there is a lesson for men of understanding. It is no invented story but a confirmation of the existing (Scripture) and a detailed explanation of everything, and a guidance and a mercy for folk who believe.

        Originally posted by siam View Post
        2) Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) is considered a Prophet (= messenger of God) and that he was a Jew and therefore a Prophet sent to the Jews.
        This means Deuteronomy 13 (False Prophet) may have some relevance:-

        13 “If a prophet or someone who has dreams arises among you and proclaims a sign or wonder to you, 2 and that sign or wonder he has promised you comes about, but he says, ‘Let us follow other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us worship them,’ 3 do not listen to that prophet’s words or to that dreamer. For the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul. 4 You must follow the Lord your God and fear Him. You must keep His commands and listen to His voice; you must worship Him and remain faithful[a] to Him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he has urged rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the place of slavery, to turn you from the way the Lord your God has commanded you to walk. You must purge the evil from you."

        From this context, what the Quran is implying is that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was not a false Prophet since God prevented his death at the hands of Jews as he would be expected to do of a true Prophet.
        If God is expected to do this, why do both the Quran and Bible imply that Jews killed legitimate prophets wrongfully? I don't understand your statement. As I already cited right from the opening post in Quran 4:
        Quran 4:155 Then because of their breaking of their covenant, and their disbelieving in the revelations of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully...

        More from Quran 2:
        Quran 2:61 ...That was because they disbelieved in Allah's revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression.

        Quran 2:91 ...Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Why then slew ye the prophets of Allah aforetime, if ye are (indeed) believers?

        Comment


        • #5
          "There is no significance or symbolism attached to Crucifixion in Islam therefore having it serves no function within an Islamic context."

          ---The Crucifixion has much importance in Christianity so perhaps it may be difficult to fathom that it does not hold any significance in Islam.

          "everything aught to be significant"

          ---Yes you are somewhat correct---but the interpretation of that significance may be different. For example, many of the stories from the Torah are retold in the Quran but are different---this is because to Muslims the Quran is Guidance ---as you quoted above ---"and a guidance and a mercy for folk who believe." therefore the significance of a story is often in the ethical/moral/spiritual dimension of the retold story. This emphasis on ethical/moral principles serves as Guidance in the lives of Muslims.

          Recall this passage from the first post
          "(156) And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain."

          Here, some Jews were claiming they killed Jesus Christ(pbuh) and the subsequent sentences explain that such a claim is mistaken. However, God allowed an illusion of a crucifixion to occur thus allowing people to believe what they chose to. Why? Perhaps because the people had already made up their minds that Jesus Christ(pbuh) was a false Prophet therefore his message had already been discarded. At this point, correcting this impression/illusion may have served no purpose and they were allowed to believe what they chose to.

          Complaints against Jews---Many of the complaints that the Quran reminds Jews of, are also in their tradition. So a Jewish person listening to some of these complaints would recognize them as familiar. The verses (2:61, 2:91) about slaying prophets are in this context. From what little I understand about Judaism, the main thrust/point in Jewish tradition is about the relationship between God and the Jewish people and the remembrance of the Compassion and Mercy of God.

          For Muslims, this can be interpreted as signifying that human beings may be flawed and forgetful but God is Compassionate and Merciful and will give us many opportunities to turn to him.

          Surah 2 verses 63 and 64

          63 and remember we took your covenant and we raised above you the Mount: (saying) "hold firmly to what we have given you and bring ever to remembrance what is therein: Perchance you may have awe of God.
          64 but you turned back thereafter: had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of God to you, you would have been among the lost.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by siam View Post
            The verses (2:61, 2:91) about slaying prophets are in this context.
            Agreeing that the crucifixion has different significance and that a different interpretation of it exists in Islam, I'm not sure what you mean by the above statement. Are you agreeing that Jews wrongly killed some true prophets as 2:61/2:91 and other verses in the Quran state?

            Comment


            • #7
              The Quran does not specify/clarify what is meant and I do not know of Jewish people killing true/false Prophets. Perhaps this may be in their traditions...a Jewish person I asked on this issue could not recall any instances. (Perhaps there may be some hints in 2 Chronicles of a priest being killed...?...or maybe the book of 1 kings....?....)
              IMO, one can also understand such passages in a general/symbolic way as rejecting some messages/messengers.

              2:61, 2:91 ---if you were to read these verses in context with regards to verses preceding and subsequent it(main point)will be more clear---for example, 2:60 speaks of God's Compassion and Mercy and 2:61 reminds how some people forgot this. 2:62 then reiterates the message that God is most Compassionate and Merciful and it also extends God's grace to those beyond the Jewish tradition.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by siam View Post
                The Quran does not specify/clarify what is meant and I do not know of Jewish people killing true/false Prophets. Perhaps this may be in their traditions...a Jewish person I asked on this issue could not recall any instances. (Perhaps there may be some hints in 2 Chronicles of a priest being killed...?...or maybe the book of 1 kings....?....)
                IMO, one can also understand such passages in a general/symbolic way as rejecting some messages/messengers.

                2:61, 2:91 ---if you were to read these verses in context with regards to verses preceding and subsequent it(main point)will be more clear---for example, 2:60 speaks of God's Compassion and Mercy and 2:61 reminds how some people forgot this. 2:62 then reiterates the message that God is most Compassionate and Merciful and it also extends God's grace to those beyond the Jewish tradition.
                God is compassionate and merciful, but bad things still happen to good people, always have, but they get rewarded in Heaven so God's graces aren't compromised at any rate.

                Can you find any English translation that does not say for example in Quran 2:61 that Jews killed prophets, and state it more as a symbolic rejection? Or that the same word as slay/kill in Arabic is used elsewhere to describe a non-fatal rejection? Since rejection/disbelief are already stated before slaying/killing, it would seem to be redundant.

                Examples:

                Abdul Daryabi: This, because they were ever disbelieving in the signs of Allah and slaying the prophets without justice.

                Dr. Mohsin: That was because they used to disbelieve the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allâh and killed the Prophets wrongfully.

                Muft Taqi Usmani: That was because they used to deny the signs of Allah, and would slay the prophets unjustly.

                Pickthal: That was because they disbelieved in Allah's revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully.

                Yusuf Ali: This because they went on rejecting the signs of Allah and slaying His messengers without just cause.
                Is it your opinion that the Bible just fabricates the unjust slaying of John the Baptist? What happened to him, how did he die?

                Comment


                • #9
                  The complaints with regards to Jews serve as reminders of what was already in the Jewish traditions. This would have been familiar to Jews listening to the Quran. I do not know if Jews killed Prophets and the Quran does not elaborate/clarify this point---however, if this is from their tradition, it may be something Jews themselves understood/believed irrespective of it actually occurred or not.

                  Perhaps Christianity may have inherited this tradition....?....
                  Matthew 23:34-37
                  King James Version (KJV)

                  34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

                  35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

                  36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

                  37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


                  The interpretation of "rejecting message/messenger"---is my personal opinion, but was also mentioned in a tafsir.(I forget which one---sorry. ---as far as I know,(Quran) 2:61 uses slay/kill) For Muslims, what Jewish tradition may claim for itself is not relevant---what is relevant is that we(Muslims) should pay attention to the messengers and messages God sends (and not reject them). This would be in line with the overall message of the Quran and appropriate in the context of understanding the Quran as a Guide.

                  John the Baptist---As far as I know---Jews do not claim that they (Jews) killed him?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    The complaints with regards to Jews serve as reminders of what was already in the Jewish traditions. This would have been familiar to Jews listening to the Quran. I do not know if Jews killed Prophets and the Quran does not elaborate/clarify this point---however, if this is from their tradition, it may be something Jews themselves understood/believed irrespective of it actually occurred or not.
                    Some Jews or their traditions may not have always been correct as far as the Quran was concerned, especially if by Mohammed's time many Jews rejected that John or Jesus were even true prophets. So if in their traditions they denied some things that the Quran states are true, then the Quran doesn't always address Jewish traditions they would have either been familiar with or accepted. So it may be that some Jews denied that other Jews killed any true prophets, and the Quran was correcting them.

                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    Perhaps Christianity may have inherited this tradition....?....
                    In addition to the biblical beheading of John the Baptist, Matthew 23 is also relevant to Christians showing that some Jews wrongly killed prophets, yes.

                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    The interpretation of "rejecting message/messenger"---is my personal opinion, but was also mentioned in a tafsir.(I forget which one---sorry. ---as far as I know,(Quran) 2:61 uses slay/kill)
                    It would be helpful to know where the term was used elsewhere to imply non-fatal rejection/destruction of reputation/etc. I'll research it more myself though.

                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    For Muslims, what Jewish tradition may claim for itself is not relevant---what is relevant is that we(Muslims) should pay attention to the messengers and messages God sends (and not reject them). This would be in line with the overall message of the Quran and appropriate in the context of understanding the Quran as a Guide.
                    To me the following statements seem contradictory, in that if what Jewish tradition may claim for itself is not relevant to Muslims, why would the Quran consider it to remind Jews what was in their traditions?
                    • The complaints with regards to Jews serve as reminders of what was already in the Jewish traditions.
                    • For Muslims, what Jewish tradition may claim for itself is not relevant...


                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    John the Baptist---As far as I know---Jews do not claim that they (Jews) killed him?
                    Again some Jews may have denied that other Jews killed any true prophets. Biblically King Herod beheaded John the Baptist, affirmed by Josephus. I've yet to find a Muslim source denying that John was killed, most seem to agree with the Bible and other sources that he was beheaded. Example:

                    These are the facts we learn about Yahya in the glorious Quran. All else that we know about Yahya comes to us in the form of other references narrated by different scholars. They tell us that Yahya used to weep so much out of love for Allah that the tears marked his cheeks.

                    They tell us that he lived in the desert and that he loved nature and ate grass with the wild beasts. They also tell us that he spoke out against the lustful desire of King Herod to marry Salome, and as a result of this he was thrown into prison and beheaded. These references do coincide with stories about John the Baptist found in the Christian Scriptures. Let us be clear, though, that they are references from pious scholars and are not found in the Quran. -OnIslam

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I apologize for not being clear in my explanations....and because of this, 2 different issues are being mashed together.....

                      Quran 4:155-159 (quoted in your first post)

                      verse 155 is about general complaints from Jewish tradition---the purpose/use of these types of complaints (in the Jewish tradition) may have been to juxtapose the flaws of human beings against the Divine Mercy and Compassion so as to bring about remembrance of God that promotes thankfulness/gratefulness.

                      verse 156-157 then jumps from general complaints (from Jewish tradition) to SPECIFIC complaints regarding Mary (pbuh) and Jesus Christ(pbuh)--which have nothing to do with practices of the Jewish tradition.

                      verse 157-158 is a response to a particular and specific claim by some Jews (they killed Jesus Christ)---and the Quran denies this claim.

                      Quranic corrections (my opinion)---I agree that the Quran corrects a specific claim by some Jews that they killed Jesus Christ(pbuh) However, I do not feel the Quran is particularly concerned with correcting the GENERAL claim from Jewish tradition of the killing of Prophets. It is possible the Jewish people themselves used this symbolically (or not?) as part of a list of complaints used for the purpose of remembrance. (if correction was the purpose---I feel the Quran would have elaborated or specified a particular incident or incidents....it does not do so)

                      Quranic usage of complaints (in Surah 2) from Jewish tradition---(my opinion). Surah 2 is (overall) a Medinian Surah. There were Jewish tribes in Medina. It is possible the Quran is using aspects from Jewish tradition that would be familiar to Jews because they are part of its audience. The Quranic perspective is that Jews and Christians are "people of the book" and therefore belong to the community of believers. Many of us Muslims (then and now) are not familiar with Jewish and Christian traditions and for us, the intricacies of those traditions would therefore not be relevant---we as Muslims are concerned with what ethical/moral/spiritual Guidance the Quran gives to us as Muslims. In this context---the complaints in Surah 2 would serve as advice/warnings to the "new" community to avoid some of the mistakes that happened in the older community.

                      IMO, the "corrections" that the Quran is concerned, with regards to Jewish thought, may be the exclusivity of the "chosen people" doctrine. The Quranic perspective is that God's Compassion and Mercy is not confined to a few "chosen people" but extends to all humanity. (---Is this similar to Christianity?)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        I apologize for not being clear in my explanations....and because of this, 2 different issues are being mashed together.....

                        Quran 4:155-159 (quoted in your first post)

                        verse 155 is about general complaints from Jewish tradition---the purpose/use of these types of complaints (in the Jewish tradition) may have been to juxtapose the flaws of human beings against the Divine Mercy and Compassion so as to bring about remembrance of God that promotes thankfulness/gratefulness.

                        verse 156-157 then jumps from general complaints (from Jewish tradition) to SPECIFIC complaints regarding Mary (pbuh) and Jesus Christ(pbuh)--which have nothing to do with practices of the Jewish tradition.
                        Text again:

                        Then because of their breaking of their covenant, and their disbelieving in the revelations of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully, and their saying: Our hearts are hardened - Nay, but Allah set a seal upon them for their disbelief, so that they believe not save a few. And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny; .And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah,
                        It does not exactly jump, rather the connecting point is: "Allah set a seal upon them for their disbelief, so that they believe not save a few."

                        You are going to find the exact same statement here in the Bible, as Quran 12:111 states is "a confirmation of the existing (Scripture)"

                        Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        verse 157-158 is a response to a particular and specific claim by some Jews (they killed Jesus Christ)---and the Quran denies this claim.
                        Here again I think this is saying that some Jews could not send Jesus to death unless Jesus and God allowed it, so the Quran serves to take some of the wind out of their sails. Rather than the Quran saying Jesus never died on the cross.

                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        However, I do not feel the Quran is particularly concerned with correcting the GENERAL claim from Jewish tradition of the killing of Prophets. It is possible the Jewish people themselves used this symbolically (or not?) as part of a list of complaints used for the purpose of remembrance. (if correction was the purpose---I feel the Quran would have elaborated or specified a particular incident or incidents....it does not do so)
                        I would still question your statement that, "From this context, what the Quran is implying is that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was not a false Prophet since God prevented his death at the hands of Jews as he would be expected to do of a true Prophet." Since I am unable to find any Muslim source that says John the Baptist as a true prophet was not killed by the King of Jews Herod. Is it that you believe God would not allow a true prophet to be killed by anyone, or is it that God would not allow a true prophet to be killed by Jews, specifically?

                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        Quranic usage of complaints (in Surah 2) from Jewish tradition---(my opinion). Surah 2 is (overall) a Medinian Surah. There were Jewish tribes in Medina. It is possible the Quran is using aspects from Jewish tradition that would be familiar to Jews because they are part of its audience. The Quranic perspective is that Jews and Christians are "people of the book" and therefore belong to the community of believers. Many of us Muslims (then and now) are not familiar with Jewish and Christian traditions and for us, the intricacies of those traditions would therefore not be relevant---we as Muslims are concerned with what ethical/moral/spiritual Guidance the Quran gives to us as Muslims. In this context---the complaints in Surah 2 would serve as advice/warnings to the "new" community to avoid some of the mistakes that happened in the older community.
                        I still see some contradictions in your reasoning here: why would you be warned from the Quran of things in Jewish and Christian traditions if you are not familiar with them now, what good is the warning? Why would you be warned of them if they are not relevant?
                        • Many of us Muslims (then and now) are not familiar with Jewish and Christian traditions and for us, the intricacies of those traditions would therefore not be relevant...
                        • ...the complaints in Surah 2 would serve as advice/warnings to the "new" community to avoid some of the mistakes that happened in the older community.


                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        IMO, the "corrections" that the Quran is concerned, with regards to Jewish thought, may be the exclusivity of the "chosen people" doctrine. The Quranic perspective is that God's Compassion and Mercy is not confined to a few "chosen people" but extends to all humanity. (---Is this similar to Christianity?)
                        Yes, first of all I believe Jesus died to save all humanity from Adam's sin, sins of the father. Atheists, everyone. Next, all humanity may be saved from their own sins.

                        Jeremiah 31:29-31 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
                        With the New Covenant, Gentiles may also receive salvation, and Jews may be cut off if they don't accept Jesus:

                        Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

                        Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          A small clarification, JohnnyP, you mean that while all may be saved, not all will because they do not proclaim Jesus is Lord? Or are you taking a universalist stance?

                          Siam, for you to know more of the Christian tradition, it is usually said that God's grace is extended to all, but most reject it.
                          Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                            A small clarification, JohnnyP, you mean that while all may be saved, not all will because they do not proclaim Jesus is Lord? Or are you taking a universalist stance?
                            Jeremiah 31:29-31 implies universalism only on the matter of the New Covenant removing curses of the fathers on children, ultimately erasing Adam's sin from everyone. However each person may still die of his own sins and all may not be saved on that matter, which is not universalist.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Fair enough. Thank you for the clarification.
                              Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                              Comment

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