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Mecca Beheading: Sign of Trouble?

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  • Mecca Beheading: Sign of Trouble?

    WARNING: I selected this article because there is no video within it far as I can tell. If you should follow any link in it to any, you're on your own. If anyone should post video in this thread showing ANY beheading, it will be removed.

    I've been following some news over the years regarding Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries. When I heard about this particular beheading, I decided to ask our resident Muslim members and anyone knowledgeable about Islam particularly about the information in this article about the nature and number of beheadings. I find especially disturbing the claim of 43 percent of the 2014 deaths being foreigners who were staying in Saudi Arabia.

    Here's the link:http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20...016981639.html

    Added: A map showing the number of death penalties imposed and carried out 2011. Arabia is 100%

    http://www.theguardian.com/news/data...ountries-world



    Moderator Notice

    If anyone should post a video in this thread showing ANY beheading, it will be removed.

    ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
    Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

    Last edited by DesertBerean; 01-19-2015, 07:35 PM. Reason: added notice
    Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

  • #2
    It is related to Sharia practices is it not?
    Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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    • #3
      The map link doesn't work

      This one does: http://www.theguardian.com/news/data...ountries-world

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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      • #4
        Amnesty-International-exe-009.jpg
        "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
        -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

        Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
        1 Corinthians 16:13

        "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
        -Ben Witherington III

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        • #5
          Thanks guys...
          Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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          • #6
            So ... I'm unclear what exactly you're worrying about. As a 'godless liberal' it says on my membership card that I oppose the death penalty wherever it is practiced. I do. Indonesia just executed 6 drug traffickers by firing squad. Indonesia is a Muslim country. Capital punishment is just plain wrong imo, and it it worries me wherever it is.

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            • #7
              The number of beheadings in Saudi Arabia has increased since the last Ramadan, according to the article. And they say 43 percent of the 2014 beheadings are outsiders. I wonder if the practice of Sharia has anything to do with it. Or some leader (imam?)made a speech ... or is it nothing to do with Sharia and more to do with the monarchy's attitude towards non natives?

              as I said, I've been kind of following news about the Mideast. Saudi Arabia is going through a lot of internal turmoil right now.
              Last edited by DesertBerean; 01-19-2015, 10:17 PM.
              Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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              • #8
                Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                So ... I'm unclear what exactly you're worrying about. As a 'godless liberal' it says on my membership card that I oppose the death penalty wherever it is practiced. I do. Indonesia just executed 6 drug traffickers by firing squad. Indonesia is a Muslim country. Capital punishment is just plain wrong imo, and it it worries me wherever it is.
                A big difference between executing drug traffickers and executing people who make some minor social objection.
                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                • #9
                  The Mecca beheading has provoked comments as well on the woman's protestations of innocence. It's not reported here, but in another article that had the video, reported she cried "This is haram, haram!" repeatedly, meaning "Forbidden!", and that she also said, "you will not be forgiven!" Meaning her killers would not be pardoned by Allah. She may well have been innocent of the horrific crime against the child.
                  Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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                  • #10
                    @DesertBerean

                    IMO, your assessment of prejudice and turmoil is correct. Saudi Arabia has a serious problem of ethnic prejudice and these have caused several diplomatic situations with other countries. Generally, the Saudi's treat Westerners favorably so the West has not encountered it as much as other non-Western countries....(This is not because of lack of prejudice towards Westerners...but IMO, because Western Embassies have the power to protect their citizens) There is also the Shia problem for Saudi's....a marginalized group who have been treated unfavorably and may rise up and demand justice. Then, there is also a general perception among the global Muslim Ummah that Wahabism (its spread) is a problem and there is a need to counter it with an emphasis on mainstream Islam......

                    Sharia---Classical Sharia Jurisprudence is not really implemented anywhere (IMO)---because to do so, you need the infrastructure---but these were dismantled during the colonial period---what we have today is a type of "make it up as you go along" type of "Sharia" in some countries---but in most countries it is a hybrid of the previous colonial system of law and "sharia" used for specific purposes. The reason that classical sharia cannot be fully implemented is because in essence the Law was supposed to be a counterbalance to Government and as such independent of the Government.(the Ulama made/arbitrated law). The Western system of law is implemented and enforced by the government and it is the Government that comes up with Law---so it cannot act as a counterbalance to the Government.
                    (That is why Muslims want "Sharia" to counter government corruption and socio-economic inequality---what they mean is classical sharia...but implementation of "sharia" ends up not solving the problem because, IMO, there is an essential mismatch between classical sharia and the present system of law in many Muslim-majority countries.....which is often made by the privileged for the benefit of the privileged......)

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                    • #11
                      Thank you, siam.

                      I've seen comments that Saudi Arabia has no penal code. I suppose, from your explanation, what that means is they have no Western type code?

                      Also, if this were done under your classical Sharia, if it was found that she was in fact innocent, would those who tried her be subjected to judgement as well?
                      Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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                      • #12
                        I am not familiar with the details of the Saudi justice system so I cannot reply to specifics...only generalities.....

                        Mainstream Islam has about 5 major systems of Sharia (both Sunni and Shia)---of which Fiqh is for Jursiprudence (the other aspects regulate religious traditions/customs). Wahabism is not mainstream Islam, it is ---what is generally termed "Purists". These are ideologies (both Sunni and Shia) that came about as a response to colonialism and posit a return to an idealized "Utopia" that will solve all the problems. To do this, they say Muslims must return to a "Pure" Islam---of which they (that particular group) are the arbiters.

                        Classical Sharia was a robust system of Jurisprudence with courts, judges, witnesses, testimonies, and in some cases juries. The principle was that a person is innocent until proven guilty. Witnesses had to take an oath that they swear before God that their testimonies are true. As to punishment for perjury/giving false testimony, it probably would have been implemented as this is considered serious.....but I cannot confirm this until further study.

                        Court records of the Ottoman period have been preserved and there is (Western) scholarly interest in this field.....so, we may have more information in this area later....

                        Fiqh was not a static system of Jurisprudence--but as any system of Law it evolved over time within the framework of methodology of arriving at law (Usul-al-fiqh). How this trajectory would have been had it evolved into modern times I cannot say....the tanzimat reforms of the Ottomans suggest that classical Sharia might have been "reformed" into non-existence so as to give the government control over it.....

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                        • #13
                          I forgot to mention---Classical sharia is a pluralistic system of law---This means that that there is an acceptance that some ethico-moral principles may be universal, others may be relative. Because Sharia is based on the ethico-moral principles if Islam---it cannot apply to non-Muslims (unless they voluntarily choose to use it). So, Sharia allowed for other forms of law and courts of law.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by firstfloor
                            They behave this way because they are certain of their god. In the west, we are less certain of god and therefore more thoughtful about how we treat offenders.
                            I don't think that's true at all! The US has the death penalty. My country doesn't. It's a complex mix of cultural characteristics and I would say has little to do with anyone's 'certainty' about God.

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                            • #15
                              Edited by a Moderator

                              Moderated By: Sparko

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                              Last edited by Sparko; 01-20-2015, 12:56 PM.
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