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A delayed response to Siam

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  • Pentecost
    replied
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    Questionable things---I agree....it (eschatological views) also fills in for a question/puzzle the Muslims have----which is, why is Prophet Jesus called the Masih (Messiah) in the Quran. There are two levels(titles) of Prophet (one who brings God's message)---Rasul and Nabi. Since Jesus Christ is a Prophet in Islam, either one of those titles could have been used, but the Quran uses Masih (annointed with oil).

    How do your views of eschatology influence your life?
    By that I meant that it answered observations about life such as the Question of Evil, and why people act the way they do, and what God intends to do about it. The Question of Evil in particular bothered me very much when I became a Christian.

    If I could summarize my understanding so far---God creates in perfection (no sin, no death), but Adam's actions bring sin and consequently death, (imperfection) and God sends his son as sacrifice to clean/purify?....and after this event those that accept the premise, will become perfect...at some future point?...and when the end times near, God accelerates the program (of separating good/bad)---eschatology---and eventually because there is no Satan and death---things return to perfection?........
    ...and the point of it all is to allow humanity (after the crucifixion) the choice to accept or reject God's event/gift?
    Living out the premise is the proof of belief, and the premise is specifically identifying Jesus with YHWH.

    Islamic Paradigm....
    In Islam, the concept of perfection is unimportant---our starting point is Tawheed(Unity)=One God.
    If there is only One God in existence, then all humanity---irrespective of religion, race, gender...etc----pray to the same One God. (Even if the labels and concepts of God may differ.) It is the One God (and only God) that receives all our prayers and bestows blessings on all humanity both good or bad. Therefore, the criteria of Justice on Judgement day must be such that Justice tempered with compassion and mercy would be applicable equally to all humanity.
    So then it is not an exclusivist faith? I ask because if the same god worshipped by Hindus is the same god worshipped by aboriginal peoples who is the same god worshipped by Christians who is the same god worshipped by Jews is the same god worshipped by Muslims then... If I do good enough I'll be rewarded as much as you? Or are you still better off because you knew how to better live? You also imply that the Christian concept of salvation is unjust because it is not equally applicable to all humanity, right? Christianity is very exclusivist, you may worship our God without knowing His name (St. Paul when in ancient Athens said their worshipping of an "Unknown God" is the God of Abraham, but makes it very clear that Zeus for example is not the God of Abraham, they are different. Those who know more are held to a higher standard than those who know less.

    All humanity are Bani Adam/Children of Adam and were put on earth with the responsibility as Trustees (Khalifa) of God. (God's will=Right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations.) All were given Guidance (law=ethico-moral principles of justice) by the One God. God has also created humanity with inherent goodness (Fitra). Thus, those who follow the Guidance given them and inherent inclination to goodness...are "muslims" (one who submits to God/God's law). Those who, after knowing Guidance, reject it out of arrogance and self interest, are Kaffir. (Gratititude is the hallmark of the believer (shakir), as arrogance is that of the rejector (kaffir)).
    I can agree with much of this aside from the particular word difference due to language, but would say that everyone is "kaffir" and can only submit to God's law by Him performing a miracle changing you.

    Sin=error/mistake, and all human beings make mistakes but God is most Compassionate, most Forgiving. God forgives those who ask for forgiveness. Our life on earth is a test and blessings and trials are neither good or bad---they are both tests (for our souls/nafs). Guidance (law) provides for Justice on earth, but human justice is inadequate because we cannot know the unseen---only the seen---so we can judge by actions but cannot know intentions. God sees and knows all so God's Justice is better/more Just. Therefore, on Judgement day, Divine Justice prevails.
    Agreed.

    Divine Justice---Our souls are judged. The Angels and the Spirit (Ruh) stand as witnesses. We are given an account (books) of our good deeds and bad deeds and our resurrected body gives testimony. Our souls will already know the judgement before it is given because it will be just and self-evident. (there are many details and nuances...but this should serve as somewhat of an intro....)
    Agreed.

    Leave a comment:


  • siam
    replied
    Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
    It is to me but neither my eschatology nor my views on its importance are representative of the whole faith. In fact I'm sure the majority on TWeb disagrees with me in multiple places, but it is a secondary belief I think my views are true and explain several questionable things I've noticed both in Scripture, and in living my life.

    In all forms of Christianity the end of sin and death are expected, eternal life is expected and we all expect to be at least as free as we are now.
    I am not sure I made sense to you then. Maybe if I said it like this, sin and death are not good, and are facts of life and without them the world would be perfect. Christian Scripture teaches about being freed from both of those things and their eventual end. So the question becomes what kind of God would let such things be in the world if He doesn't like them? It can't simply be a test, because we all fail. It can't be a weak God unable to destroy them, because the. It's not a God. It can't be an Evil God, because He wouldn't want to end it. I find it is resolved by adding free will to the equation and saying that currently we have free will and we sin and we die. The goal is to have free will, no sin, and no death. Death is a result of sin, and sin is a rejection of God, and so if you excuse the crude way I say this, God is collecting those who freely seek Him (and therefore resist sin) and takes away their deserved death. So these people will have free will and have chosen Him, will have no sin because they will have a new sinless body and sinless Spirit, and will not die a second time because of a lack of sin.
    Questionable things---I agree....it (eschatological views) also fills in for a question/puzzle the Muslims have----which is, why is Prophet Jesus called the Masih (Messiah) in the Quran. There are two levels(titles) of Prophet (one who brings God's message)---Rasul and Nabi. Since Jesus Christ is a Prophet in Islam, either one of those titles could have been used, but the Quran uses Masih (annointed with oil).

    How do your views of eschatology influence your life?

    If I could summarize my understanding so far---God creates in perfection (no sin, no death), but Adam's actions bring sin and consequently death, (imperfection) and God sends his son as sacrifice to clean/purify?....and after this event those that accept the premise, will become perfect...at some future point?...and when the end times near, God accelerates the program (of separating good/bad)---eschatology---and eventually because there is no Satan and death---things return to perfection?........
    ...and the point of it all is to allow humanity (after the crucifixion) the choice to accept or reject God's event/gift?

    Islamic Paradigm....
    In Islam, the concept of perfection is unimportant---our starting point is Tawheed(Unity)=One God.
    If there is only One God in existence, then all humanity---irrespective of religion, race, gender...etc----pray to the same One God. (Even if the labels and concepts of God may differ.) It is the One God (and only God) that receives all our prayers and bestows blessings on all humanity both good or bad. Therefore, the criteria of Justice on Judgement day must be such that Justice tempered with compassion and mercy would be applicable equally to all humanity.

    All humanity are Bani Adam/Children of Adam and were put on earth with the responsibility as Trustees (Khalifa) of God. (God's will=Right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations.) All were given Guidance (law=ethico-moral principles of justice) by the One God. God has also created humanity with inherent goodness (Fitra). Thus, those who follow the Guidance given them and inherent inclination to goodness...are "muslims" (one who submits to God/God's law). Those who, after knowing Guidance, reject it out of arrogance and self interest, are Kaffir. (Gratititude is the hallmark of the believer (shakir), as arrogance is that of the rejector (kaffir)).

    Sin=error/mistake, and all human beings make mistakes but God is most Compassionate, most Forgiving. God forgives those who ask for forgiveness. Our life on earth is a test and blessings and trials are neither good or bad---they are both tests (for our souls/nafs). Guidance (law) provides for Justice on earth, but human justice is inadequate because we cannot know the unseen---only the seen---so we can judge by actions but cannot know intentions. God sees and knows all so God's Justice is better/more Just. Therefore, on Judgement day, Divine Justice prevails.

    Divine Justice---Our souls are judged. The Angels and the Spirit (Ruh) stand as witnesses. We are given an account (books) of our good deeds and bad deeds and our resurrected body gives testimony. Our souls will already know the judgement before it is given because it will be just and self-evident. (there are many details and nuances...but this should serve as somewhat of an intro....)

    Leave a comment:


  • Pentecost
    replied
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    The premise is that eschatology (end times) is the main theme of history/religion....
    It is to me but neither my eschatology nor my views on its importance are representative of the whole faith. In fact I'm sure the majority on TWeb disagrees with me in multiple places, but it is a secondary belief I think my views are true and explain several questionable things I've noticed both in Scripture, and in living my life.
    and in some Christianities this means the end of sin/death which I have understood to mean no free-will and eternal life...?...would that be correct?
    In all forms of Christianity the end of sin and death are expected, eternal life is expected and we all expect to be at least as free as we are now.
    If the inevitable end is removal of death/sin---then what was the purpose of having them there in the first place? (I understand what you mean by free-will, sin and force...but if these concepts are primary---then having the eschatology you described seems contradictory---on the other hand, if they are not of importance, why have them?...unless there is a purpose....)
    I am not sure I made sense to you then. Maybe if I said it like this, sin and death are not good, and are facts of life and without them the world would be perfect. Christian Scripture teaches about being freed from both of those things and their eventual end. So the question becomes what kind of God would let such things be in the world if He doesn't like them? It can't simply be a test, because we all fail. It can't be a weak God unable to destroy them, because the. It's not a God. It can't be an Evil God, because He wouldn't want to end it. I find it is resolved by adding free will to the equation and saying that currently we have free will and we sin and we die. The goal is to have free will, no sin, and no death. Death is a result of sin, and sin is a rejection of God, and so if you excuse the crude way I say this, God is collecting those who freely seek Him (and therefore resist sin) and takes away their deserved death. So these people will have free will and have chosen Him, will have no sin because they will have a new sinless body and sinless Spirit, and will not die a second time because of a lack of sin.

    My understanding from our (previous) conversation is that-- "to save"---means removal of death/sin?
    I'm not sure I would say that's the only thing entailed, that is certainly a result, the main part is what is often called a "personal relationship with Jesus." But I don't think that's helpful terminology to non-Christians. It's personal in the sense that you communicate to each other every day, but He is both king and friend in an indescribable way.

    Islamic eschatology---I can only give a general outline as it is not a necessary part of belief/religion.
    In truth, I and most Christians I know spend very little time on the subject, I am fascinated by it but very little time is spent teaching it and I know what I do from my own independent study.
    The main characters are the Dajjal (Anti-Christ/Pretender), Jesus Christ (pbuh), Mahdi, the "helper" who paves the way for Jesus Christ...and the external enemy the Gog, Magog (Yajuj and Majuj). The purpose of the end times is to bring peace to the world through Islam (a sort of Jewish Olam Haba type of thing---messianic age--see maimonides)
    We have aspects of all of those things, though "helper" that "pages the way for Jesus Christ" sounds very much like John the Baptist, and only a very little like the two witnesses who would be the closest approximation in Christian teachings.

    Day of Judgement/Afterlife---is a necessary part of belief/religion. In the Islamic paradigm---our purpose here on earth is for a test, the day of judgement is the "grading" (of pass/fail), and heaven/hell the next destination. Justice tempered with compassion and mercy is the main theme upon which these concepts are built.
    Perhaps I've been talking about the wrong parts of Christian end times because I can agree with these points.

    This is somewhat rambling video...but it might give an intro to Islamic eschatology......
    I listened to the first five minutes and I think I will listen to the rest later, but I do not have a spare hour for listening right now.

    Leave a comment:


  • siam
    replied
    The premise is that eschatology (end times) is the main theme of history/religion....and in some Christianities this means the end of sin/death which I have understood to mean no free-will and eternal life...?...would that be correct?
    If the inevitable end is removal of death/sin---then what was the purpose of having them there in the first place? (I understand what you mean by free-will, sin and force...but if these concepts are primary---then having the eschatology you described seems contradictory---on the other hand, if they are not of importance, why have them?...unless there is a purpose....)

    My understanding from our (previous) conversation is that-- "to save"---means removal of death/sin?

    Islamic eschatology---I can only give a general outline as it is not a necessary part of belief/religion. The main characters are the Dajjal (Anti-Christ/Pretender), Jesus Christ (pbuh), Mahdi, the "helper" who paves the way for Jesus Christ...and the external enemy the Gog, Magog (Yajuj and Majuj). The purpose of the end times is to bring peace to the world through Islam (a sort of Jewish Olam Haba type of thing---messianic age--see maimonides)

    Day of Judgement/Afterlife---is a necessary part of belief/religion. In the Islamic paradigm---our purpose here on earth is for a test, the day of judgement is the "grading" (of pass/fail), and heaven/hell the next destination. Justice tempered with compassion and mercy is the main theme upon which these concepts are built.

    This is somewhat rambling video...but it might give an intro to Islamic eschatology......

    Leave a comment:


  • Pentecost
    replied
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    And a summary from the discussion in the previous thread...
    1) Jesus will come back to rescue Christians from a 3 1/2 year long tribulation with natural disasters, and false prophets and other terrible things.
    2) Then Christ and His servants will come defeat and bind Satan and his minions.
    3) We will rule for one thousand years, then Satan will be released from from his prison and deceive the nations.
    4) Then the devil and his highest allies will be thrown into the Lake of Fire which is the second death.
    5) Non-Christians will be raised from the dead and all peoples will be judged.
    6) Death itself will be thrown into the Lake followed by non-Christians. Lastly, a new Heaven and new Earth will be created, and God will be with His people and we will be His people and He will be our God.
    I don't know if you copy pasted that or summed it yourself, but that appears correct to my beliefs.

    It is very interesting and dramatic---I am not familiar with eschatology so I hope you will be patient with me
    I have no idea about Islam's beliefs on the end times, as I share my own would you please share yours? I am really interested.

    .....but wasn't "saving" the whole purpose of Jesus Christ arriving the first time? it seems that the 2nd arrival is about eliminating death? so...new heaven and earth are timeless?
    Saving people was probably the most important part of his first arrival but not the only part, you quoted "saving" has anyone ever explained what that means in the context? Death is an anthropomoric power of evil, is my position, and a more general Christian position is that it is evil, but not person like either way, it and other evil things like sin and satan are not going to affect humanity the the New Creation. And the new heavens and earth seem to have time but go on in perpetuity.

    Why is Satan captured then released? (point 3) then put into lake of fire"? (point 4) One would think it would be easier to put Satan in the lake of fire the first time around?
    I had forgotten that you like to ask the hard questions, thank you for that, I have never noticed that.

    Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

    And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (*Revelation‬ *20‬:*1-3, 7-10‬ ESV)

    That is the relevant text and from a plain reading it appears that God won't throw Satan into the lake of fire yet because he still has use for him (as he currently does too), and that use in this case appears to be so that certain people will reveal their true character and will be indicted by those particular actions. But really, I am not sure. The autho of Revelation wrote what he saw in a vision and so it is not always clear.

    Why wasn't this heaven and earth created "right"(good/timeless) the first time around?...that is, what is the purpose of (Prophet) Adam's "sin"(infection)?
    That's the big question, it seems to be for the same reason you can't make a square circle, a rock too heavy for God to lift, or a purple yellow, it is logically impossible. It is inevitable that when something has free will like God, but is not God, then it will inevitably act contrary to God, which is a definition of sin. However, God can take something that was once sinful and make it pure and like Him, if it chooses to accept. Why doesn't he force it? Because that would be a removal of the free will he wants humans to have. Does that make sense? I might have take for granted a concept you are unfamiliar with, or brushed over something that needs explaining, so please tell me because at the very least it is self consistent.

    Leave a comment:


  • siam
    replied
    Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
    The middle part where you and I are, the speculation is that you cannot create something with free will that will never sin, and so Jesus has cleansed and is making holy people throughout history, from Noah, to Abraham, to King David, to Elijah, to many other lovers of God, Israelite or not. And also people from the Christian scriptures, John, Paul, James, Simon, etc. all the way through to modern day, where currently, I as a Christian am counted among their number. Living saints such as myself are going through a process of sanctification where we learn to reject sin by the power of the Holy Spirit, but because of my sin, my body is... Perhaps the way to describe it is "infected" and so I will not be completely sinless until my body is remade just as my Spirit already was.
    ......

    But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
    And a summary from the discussion in the previous thread...
    1) Jesus will come back to rescue Christians from a 3 1/2 year long tribulation with natural disasters, and false prophets and other terrible things.
    2) Then Christ and His servants will come defeat and bind Satan and his minions.
    3) We will rule for one thousand years, then Satan will be released from from his prison and deceive the nations.
    4) Then the devil and his highest allies will be thrown into the Lake of Fire which is the second death.
    5) Non-Christians will be raised from the dead and all peoples will be judged.
    6) Death itself will be thrown into the Lake followed by non-Christians. Lastly, a new Heaven and new Earth will be created, and God will be with His people and we will be His people and He will be our God.

    It is very interesting and dramatic---I am not familiar with eschatology so I hope you will be patient with me.....but wasn't "saving" the whole purpose of Jesus Christ arriving the first time? it seems that the 2nd arrival is about eliminating death? so...new heaven and earth are timeless?
    Why is Satan captured then released? (point 3) then put into lake of fire"? (point 4) One would think it would be easier to put Satan in the lake of fire the first time around?
    Why wasn't this heaven and earth created "right"(good/timeless) the first time around?...that is, what is the purpose of (Prophet) Adam's "sin"(infection)?

    Leave a comment:


  • Pentecost
    replied
    Yes, of course friend. That sentence was meant as a summation of human history starting from Adam and Eve being cast out from the garden of Eden, and ending with the creation of a New Heaven and New Earth, Genesis 3 to the end of a Revelation 20. The middle part where you and I are, the speculation is that you cannot create something with free will that will never sin, and so Jesus has cleansed and is making holy people throughout history, from Noah, to Abraham, to King David, to Elijah, to many other lovers of God, Israelite or not. And also people from the Christian scriptures, John, Paul, James, Simon, etc. all the way through to modern day, where currently, I as a Christian am counted among their number. Living saints such as myself are going through a process of sanctification where we learn to reject sin by the power of the Holy Spirit, but because of my sin, my body is... Perhaps the way to describe it is "infected" and so I will not be completely sinless until my body is remade just as my Spirit already was.

    Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. (*Revelation‬ *20‬:*4-6‬ ESV)

    But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.

    The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

    But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.

    For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.

    When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (*1 Corinthians‬ *15‬:*20-24, 26, 35-36, 39-44, 46, 54-57‬ ESV)

    Please forgive the extensive citations, but the selected verses describe what I was trying to make simple.

    Leave a comment:


  • siam
    replied
    Yes, I remember it was a pleasure to discuss with you...it was very informative for me and I look forward to exploring more issues and perspectives with you. I'm afraid I forgot the context of the question and will look into it...in the meantime perhaps you can expand on your thoughts...?....in particular the idea "He is purifying a people to be holy who knew sin and have since rejected it. " and its relation to eschatology....

    Leave a comment:


  • Pentecost
    started a topic A delayed response to Siam

    A delayed response to Siam

    This is in response to a post found in a thread by JohnnyP, "Quran: Jesus crucified?" I didn't want to me to the thread and this seemed the most right way to respond.

    Several months ago we were in a discussion and I never noticed this because it was such a small post sandwiched between other lengthy ones and I was not directly quoted. I apologize for being so late, and understand if you are no longer interested. But I hope to at least hear from you, it was a pleasurable discourse before.

    Originally posted by siam View Post
    @ Pentecost

    If eschatology is the entire reason for history---then what is the reason for us (you and me...the individual) to live on earth today?
    Since you were asking me about my personal belief that the end times are the point of human history, and that seems to me like asking, "If you're in the US and want to be in Turkey, why take the time to travel there?" A non-sequitur.

    If you recall the little primer on my particular beliefs on the ends times (or you can go back to the thread, it's there), God's plan is for Him to be God of a people and those people to (willingly and perfectly) worship Him as their God. Without human free will there is no "willing" anything, BUT sin comes by necessity with free will, and so He is purifying a people to be holy who knew sin and have since rejected it. This takes time, certainly this is not the only Christian belief I have heard, but it is not uncommon, and it is mine.
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