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  • #16
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Yes, it is obvious as the sky is blue on a clear day on the fourth of July that when one chooses a faith, you believe it is the right choice. If I believed Christianity was the superior I would choose Christianity, If I believed Islam was the one I would choose Islam.
    This part is completely nonresponsive.

    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    No, the Harmony of science and religion is in the scripture of the Baha'i Faith. It is one of the primary principles of the Baha'i Faith.
    I would think your answer would be yes here. Namely, all of science constitutes revelation, as envisioned by the Baha'i faith.

    But, whatever; do you have any indication that the Christian or Muslim revelation, properly understood, precludes additional learning from science?
    Last edited by robrecht; 12-08-2014, 08:44 PM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • #17
      Here, let me help:

      jelly_nine_nails.jpg

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        This part is completely nonresponsive.
        Simple answer is yes. I was messing with your use of 'superior.'

        I would think your answer would be yes here. Namely, all of science constitutes revelation, as envisioned by the Baha'i faith.
        The Revelation of the Baha'i Faith gives the guidance, the Revelation of science provides the knowledge.

        But, whatever; do you have any indication that the Christian or Muslim revelation, properly understood, precludes additional learning from science?
        Your on your own, humanism is your best bet.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
          Here, let me help:

          [ATTACH=CONFIG]3046[/ATTACH]
          Interesting zinc galvanize flavored lime Jello.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Simple answer is yes. I was messing with your use of 'superior.'

            The Revelation of the Baha'i Faith gives the guidance, the Revelation of science provides the knowledge.

            Your on your own, humanism is your best bet.
            So, apparently, your answer to this must be, 'no'. Too bad. There is, of course, nothing wrong with humanism, which is why many choose to be Christian humanists.
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              So, apparently, your answer to this must be, 'no'. Too bad. There is, of course, nothing wrong with humanism, which is why many choose to be Christian humanists.
              Yes the answer is no, not consistently.

              Careful here on the use of the word humanist or humanism here. There are two different definitions. The first is; 'philosophical humanism,' where one appeals for answers and guidance for answers outside Theistic belief. The second; The other is focus on human values, capacities and worth from a compassionate perspective.

              I am referring to the first in terms of the source of guidance for science, and you are referring to the later in terms of 'Christian Humanism.' I do not agree with 'Philosophical Humanism,' but they get the science right and consistently.
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-09-2014, 06:46 AM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Yes the answer is no, not consistently.

                Careful here on the use of the word humanist or humanism here. There are two different definitions. The first is; 'philosophical humanism,' where one appeals for answers and guidance for answers outside Theistic belief. The second; The other is focus on human values, capacities and worth from a compassionate perspective.

                I am referring to the first in terms of the source of guidance for science, and you are referring to the later in terms of 'Christian Humanism.' I do not agree with 'Philosophical Humanism,' but they get the science right and consistently.
                Both would consistently get the science right, in my experience, and neither would require Baha'i Revelation to do so.
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by siam View Post
                  From the Islamic perspective a scientist can independently explore physical nature using methodology---that is not the issue---the issue is of interpretation. If ALL knowledge is from God, including scriptural and scientific---then taking God out of the equation means starting off with an incomplete hypothesis---which then leads to incomplete conclusions. However, Islam also allows for various interpretations---so there is no problem with secular science. As such, there is no problem with the theory of evolution or the various other theories of science---the only small problem is the theory of human evolution---and even then---it is not the methodology/evidence that is the problem---only the interpretation/conclusion drawn from the facts/evidence. In my opinion, this is not yet a big issue---it can be resolved. Generally, the Muslim view is that if the Quran is not understood---it is because of lack of knowledge and if God is the Revealer of knowledge then in his own time he will reveal whatever is necessary to further our knowledge and in the meantime it is best to wait and say "God knows best". And while creationist ideas concerning human evolution are making substantial inroads into Islam---there are also a large number of Muslims who are neutral about evolution and taking a wait-and-see attitude.
                  There are many forms of knowledge---science is the knowledge of the "seen" and scripture is knowledge of the "unseen"---both are complementary and together to deepen our understanding of God.
                  If we take God out of scripture and science---then we simply have an understanding of "text" and "phenomenon"---not God. Not that there is anything wrong with such an understanding---only that it is incomplete. However, the greater problem is not of an incomplete understanding---but an incorrect understanding. According to Islam---all "nature" (Universe, earth...etc) is a creation of the ONE God and follows God's laws. If a secular scientist substitutes God with an abstract all powerful "Nature" and God's laws with "Natural Laws" that are created by "Nature"---then such a person has substituted "God" for a similar concept but called it "Nature". This is called Shirk(Division) in Islam---it is to give powers that rightfully belong to God to another (man-made) entity.(---in this case---one that is called "Nature")
                  The central principle in Islam is Tawheed(Unity)=ONE God and it is "The Truth". In other words, theories and perspectives that align with Tawheed are aligned with The Truth---those that do not are falsehood.
                  In my response please note the highlighted above. I understand very well the teachings of the Quran concerning science. It is true that Islam and Christianity revered, respected and endorsed science up until the late 19th, 20th and 21st centuries. Islam like Christianity considers the Pentateuch as God revealed scripture, which is the foundation of the YEC Creationist worldview. The problem becomes 'What aligns with the Truth' as revealed in scripture. The advent of the science of evolution, and the science of a physical existence billions of years old, brought science in conflict with the belief in a literal Creationist world view. This is one of problems of where Christianity and Islam has become divided and in contention over the issue of what is the 'Truth' of Science and scripture concerning the nature of the history of life, humanity and our physical existence.

                  The issue remains inconsistent interpretation and guidance relying on Revelation in the ancient literature of the Bible and the Quran, that divides the religion and leads to conflict and contention. One aspect of this is the failure to recognize 'Methodological Naturalism' as an independent methodology independent of theological presuppositions. The wide spread accusation by many Christians and Muslims is that the science of evolution and a universe billions of years old is an atheist science, and without God, because it is in conflict with the Pentateuch.

                  This is only one of many issues in the modern world that leaves religions divided in conflict and contention and failing to provide a unified consistent guidance for humanity, because the foundation is in ancient scripture only.
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-09-2014, 09:06 AM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    Both would consistently get the science right, in my experience, and neither would require Baha'i Revelation to do so.
                    Both what?? Christian Humanism, as in compassionate humanism from all perspectives like Buddhist, Baha'i or Taoist, would not address the issue of the Harmony of science and religion. The Revelation in scripture of the Baha'i Faith requires the Baha'is to accept science as the knowledge of our physical existence without Theological presuppositions or other scriptural conditions. Science is unconditionally the Revelation of the evolving knowledge of our physical existence.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Both what?? Christian Humanism, as in compassionate humanism from all perspectives like Buddhist, Baha'i or Taoist, would not address the issue of the Harmony of science and religion. The Revelation in scripture of the Baha'i Faith requires the Baha'is to accept science as the knowledge of our physical existence without Theological presuppositions or other scriptural conditions. Science is unconditionally the Revelation of the evolving knowledge of our physical existence.
                      The pursuit of knowledge, including scientific knowledge, is a human value, capacity and right in my opinion. I do not require any appeal to revelation to pursue such and would reject any so-called religious prohibition of this as contrary to the human spirit and therefore invalid.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        The pursuit of knowledge, including scientific knowledge, is a human value, capacity and right in my opinion. I do not require any appeal to revelation to pursue such and would reject any so-called religious prohibition of this as contrary to the human spirit and therefore invalid.
                        This fine for you personally. This is an individual anecdotal testimony, which is not the subject of the thread.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-09-2014, 01:14 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          This fine for you personally. This is an individual anecdotal testimony, which is not the subject of the thread.
                          No, I think it should be true for any humanist, Christian, Muslim, or otherwise.
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            No, I think it should be true for any humanist, Christian, Muslim, or otherwise.
                            I do not think the evidence supports this. If you take Philosophical Humanists, and Baha'is you have nearly 99%+ accepting the science of evolution and an ancient physical existence billions of years old. For Christians and Muslims the acceptance of evolution and an ancient earth is variable and inconsistent. The polls for Christianity have been cited many times. In Islam the literal Creationist view is increasing, as siam stated, becoming more popular. The following are the most recent polls.

                            The disturbing factor of the polls in Islam is that like in the polls in the USA (greater church attendance) the increased degree of commitment to the belief system the greater the tendency to reject evolution and an ancient existence, in favor of a literal Genesis or other Creationist view.

                            Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-science-and-popular-culture/



                            Many Muslims around the world believe in evolution. In 13 of the 22 countries where the question was asked, at least half say humans and other living things have evolved over time. By contrast, in just four countries do at least half say that humans have remained in their present form since the beginning of time.

                            In Southern and Eastern Europe, a majority of Muslims in Albania (62%) and Russia (58%) believe in evolution. But Muslims are divided in Bosnia-Herzegovina (50% believe humans have evolved, while 45% take the opposite view) and Kosovo (34% vs. 40%).

                            In four of the Central Asian countries surveyed, more than half of Muslims say they believe in evolution, including nearly eight-in-ten in Kazakhstan (79%). In Tajikistan and Turkey, by contrast, the predominant view is that humans have remained in their present form since the beginning of time (55% and 49%, respectively).

                            At least six-in-ten Muslims in Lebanon (78%), the Palestinian territories (67%) and Morocco (63%) think humans and other living things have evolved over time, but Jordanian and Tunisian Muslims are more divided on the issue. About half in Jordan (52%) believe in evolution, while 47% say humans have always existed in their present form. And in Tunisia, 45% say humans have evolved, 36% say they have always existed in their present form, and 19% are unsure. Iraq is the only country surveyed in the Middle East-North Africa region where a majority rejects the theory of evolution (67%).

                            Muslims’ views on evolution vary in South Asia and Southeast Asia. Muslims in Thailand (55%) and Bangladesh (54%) tend to accept that humans have evolved over time. But Muslims in Malaysia and Pakistan are divided: roughly four-in-ten Malaysian Muslims (37%) believe in evolution, while 45% say humans have always existed in their present form. In Pakistan, 30% think humans have evolved, while 38% disagree and 32% say that they do not know. In Afghanistan and Indonesia, the prevailing view is that humans and living things have remained in their present form since the beginning of time (62% and 55%, respectively).

                            In countries surveyed in Southern and Eastern Europe, more religiously observant Muslims are less likely to believe in evolution. In Russia, for example, 41% of Muslims who pray several times a day believe in evolution, compared with 66% of those who pray less frequently. Significant gaps also appear between more and less devout Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina (-19 percentage points) and Kosovo (-14). Views on evolution do not differ significantly by religious commitment in the other regions surveyed.

                            © Copyright Original Source

                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              I do not think the evidence supports this. If you take Philosophical Humanists, and Baha'is you have nearly 99%+ accepting the science of evolution and an ancient physical existence billions of years old. For Christians and Muslims the acceptance of evolution and an ancient earth is variable and inconsistent. The polls for Christianity have been cited many times. In Islam the literal Creationist view is increasing, as siam stated, becoming more popular. The following are the most recent polls.

                              The disturbing factor of the polls in Islam is that like in the polls in the USA (greater church attendance) the increased degree of commitment to the belief system the greater the tendency to reject evolution and an ancient existence, in favor of a literal Genesis or other Creationist view.

                              Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-science-and-popular-culture/



                              Many Muslims around the world believe in evolution. In 13 of the 22 countries where the question was asked, at least half say humans and other living things have evolved over time. By contrast, in just four countries do at least half say that humans have remained in their present form since the beginning of time.

                              In Southern and Eastern Europe, a majority of Muslims in Albania (62%) and Russia (58%) believe in evolution. But Muslims are divided in Bosnia-Herzegovina (50% believe humans have evolved, while 45% take the opposite view) and Kosovo (34% vs. 40%).

                              In four of the Central Asian countries surveyed, more than half of Muslims say they believe in evolution, including nearly eight-in-ten in Kazakhstan (79%). In Tajikistan and Turkey, by contrast, the predominant view is that humans have remained in their present form since the beginning of time (55% and 49%, respectively).

                              At least six-in-ten Muslims in Lebanon (78%), the Palestinian territories (67%) and Morocco (63%) think humans and other living things have evolved over time, but Jordanian and Tunisian Muslims are more divided on the issue. About half in Jordan (52%) believe in evolution, while 47% say humans have always existed in their present form. And in Tunisia, 45% say humans have evolved, 36% say they have always existed in their present form, and 19% are unsure. Iraq is the only country surveyed in the Middle East-North Africa region where a majority rejects the theory of evolution (67%).

                              Muslims’ views on evolution vary in South Asia and Southeast Asia. Muslims in Thailand (55%) and Bangladesh (54%) tend to accept that humans have evolved over time. But Muslims in Malaysia and Pakistan are divided: roughly four-in-ten Malaysian Muslims (37%) believe in evolution, while 45% say humans have always existed in their present form. In Pakistan, 30% think humans have evolved, while 38% disagree and 32% say that they do not know. In Afghanistan and Indonesia, the prevailing view is that humans and living things have remained in their present form since the beginning of time (62% and 55%, respectively).

                              In countries surveyed in Southern and Eastern Europe, more religiously observant Muslims are less likely to believe in evolution. In Russia, for example, 41% of Muslims who pray several times a day believe in evolution, compared with 66% of those who pray less frequently. Significant gaps also appear between more and less devout Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina (-19 percentage points) and Kosovo (-14). Views on evolution do not differ significantly by religious commitment in the other regions surveyed.

                              © Copyright Original Source

                              Not all Christians and Muslims are humanists so your data are impertinent.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                                Not all Christians and Muslims are humanists so your data are impertinent.
                                Impertinent? Very cool use of the second most common meaning of the word. I had to look it up.

                                Comment

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