Announcement

Collapse

Islam Guidelines

Theists only.

This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to Islam. This forum is generally for theists only, and is not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theist may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.



Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The Battle of Tours (Poitiers)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Battle of Tours (Poitiers)

    The victory of the ragtag army of European Christians and pagans at Tours, France in October 732 A.D. halted the Muslim military advance before it conquered all of Europe.

    Muslim armies conquered North Africa, wiping out the strongest (?) bastion of Christianity, then invaded the Iberian peninsula, finally reaching the heart of France by 732.

    In view of this most terrible case of military aggression, how are Islamic propagandists able to pass of the lie that Islam is a religion of "peace"?

    Does "peace" mean "all of the infidels are converted or killed"? I.e., we won the wars!!

    Anyway, I would like to see a discussion of this topic with the starter being the Battle of Tours.

    Some hyperlinks follow.

    K54

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_invasion_of_Gaul

    http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/...ttle-of-tours/

    http://www.historyofjihad.org/france.html

    Bataille_de_Poitiers.jpg

  • #2
    Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
    The victory of the ragtag army of European Christians and pagans at Tours, France in October 732 A.D. halted the Muslim military advance before it conquered all of Europe.

    Muslim armies conquered North Africa, wiping out the strongest (?) bastion of Christianity, then invaded the Iberian peninsula, finally reaching the heart of France by 732.

    In view of this most terrible case of military aggression, how are Islamic propagandists able to pass of the lie that Islam is a religion of "peace"?

    Does "peace" mean "all of the infidels are converted or killed"? I.e., we won the wars!!

    Anyway, I would like to see a discussion of this topic with the starter being the Battle of Tours.

    Some hyperlinks follow.

    K54

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_invasion_of_Gaul

    http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/...ttle-of-tours/

    http://www.historyofjihad.org/france.html

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]1905[/ATTACH]
    Wow, only one example? I'm disappointed, there's so many more you could have used. See: Everything that Sultan Saladin did.
    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

    -Thomas Aquinas

    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

    -Hernando Cortez

    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

    Comment


    • #3
      IIRC, Jews and Christians essentially enjoyed religious freedom in the Umayyad Empire. Actually, universal religious freedom. That was a factor in the rapid expansion of the empire. People willingly choose to join it.
      The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

      [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
        IIRC, Jews and Christians essentially enjoyed religious freedom in the Umayyad Empire. Actually, universal religious freedom. That was a factor in the rapid expansion of the empire. People willingly choose to join it.
        Source please? Especially the "universal religious freedom". Which would have been impossible under the Islamic mandate to kill or convert any people that weren't Christian, or Jews*.

        *There was one other group, but I can't remember who they were specifically.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
          Source please? Especially the "universal religious freedom". Which would have been impossible under the Islamic mandate to kill or convert any people that weren't Christian, or Jews*.

          *There was one other group, but I can't remember who they were specifically.
          Actually, that's true, however, while they could remain Christains on paper, in practice, the rulers of those settlements essentially used them as his own personal whipping boys and sex slaves. Basically, they were legally allowed to remain Christians, but not without making themselves a target.
          Last edited by TimelessTheist; 09-02-2014, 03:18 PM.
          Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

          -Thomas Aquinas

          I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

          -Hernando Cortez

          What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

          -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
            Actually, that's true, however, while they could remain Christains on paper, in practice, the ruler of those settlements essentially used them as his own personal whipping boys and sex slaves.
            True, but even the "on paper" version refutes the idea of "universal religious freedom", unless there was some major change in the government at the time Truthseeker is talking about.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
              True, but even the "on paper" version refutes the idea of "universal religious freedom", unless there was some major change in the government at the time Truthseeker is talking about.
              This piece from Wikipedia does not mention the whipping and sex http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad...te#Non-Muslims
              Try looking up the reference given at the end of that piece, maybe you'll find support for your assertion.
              The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

              [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                This piece from Wikipedia does not mention the whipping and sex http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad...te#Non-Muslims
                Try looking up the reference given at the end of that piece, maybe you'll find support for your assertion.
                Wiki? Seriously?

                You don't know how Islam generally treated "dhimmis" do you? They were second class citizens, often put to the level of a slave. Only the wealthiest that could afford the jizyah tax could remain relatively safe as they were. Any attempt to actually live out a Christian life would lead to death, as they didn't allow Christians to preach to Muslims, the penalty if found out was death. So too was the penalty if one converted from Islam to any other religion.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                  Wiki? Seriously?

                  You don't know how Islam generally treated "dhimmis" do you? They were second class citizens, often put to the level of a slave. Only the wealthiest that could afford the jizyah tax could remain relatively safe as they were. Any attempt to actually live out a Christian life would lead to death, as they didn't allow Christians to preach to Muslims, the penalty if found out was death. So too was the penalty if one converted from Islam to any other religion.
                  The idea that Christians 'chose' to live in the Empire is also ridiculous. If they were allowed to leave, I bet they would have been out of there in a heartbeat.
                  Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                  -Thomas Aquinas

                  I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                  -Hernando Cortez

                  What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                  -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                    You don't know how Islam generally treated "dhimmis" do you? They were second class citizens, often put to the level of a slave. Only the wealthiest that could afford the jizyah tax could remain relatively safe as they were. Any attempt to actually live out a Christian life would lead to death, as they didn't allow Christians to preach to Muslims, the penalty if found out was death. So too was the penalty if one converted from Islam to any other religion.



                    Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                    The idea that Christians 'chose' to live in the Empire is also ridiculous. If they were allowed to leave, I bet they would have been out of there in a heartbeat.


                    You are so well known as great scholars on the Umayyad Empire, its times and circumstances, that to ask for references (which do not have to include Wikipedia) would be a great solecism.

                    For example, Timeless Theist knows perfectly well what options the average Christian in Spain or North Africa had prior to the Battle of Tours (Poitiers).
                    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                    [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                      You are so well known as great scholars on the Umayyad Empire, its times and circumstances, that to ask for references (which do not have to include Wikipedia) would be a great solecism.

                      For example, Timeless Theist knows perfectly well what options the average Christian in Spain or North Africa had prior to the Battle of Tours (Poitiers).
                      ....what? Spain's policy was "Be Catholic, or get out", as was the general policy of Christendom, unless the monarch, out of his good graces, gave refuge to people of other faiths, usually the Jews, within certain parts of his territory. The crime was against either apostatizing or preaching heresy within their own territories 'only', and indeed, the Church spoke against, unprovoked, using force to convert the unwilling to the faith (Unless, of course, they did the previously mentioned crimes within their territories, in which case, they were criminals, and their normal rights were thus, restricted, as they are in every country. Unprovoked, war by an infidel country against a Catholic state also uses the same standard of restricting the rights of the attackers in the same way, as is typical in wartime, and as was the situation with Charlemagne and the Saxons, at least, these are the only circumstances under which Decretum Gratiani allows forced conversions.)
                      Last edited by TimelessTheist; 09-03-2014, 12:04 AM.
                      Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                      -Thomas Aquinas

                      I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                      -Hernando Cortez

                      What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                      -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Europe at this time (8th century) was made up of tribal affiliations---one such group called themselves (or were referred to) as Franks who were germanic peoples. These ruled over a (culturally) gallo-roman peoples in some parts of their territories. The battle of Tours can be considered as one out of many geo-political battles fought in regional power plays. (ex-718 Franks against the Saxons, 719 against Western Frisia, and later against Eastern Frisia,) and even after the battle of Tours, the fight for Frankish suzerainty continued.(especially against the Saxons).

                        The Islamic territories around this time extended from Spain in the West to the borders of China and India to the East, and the East was far more lucrative for its trade routes and technology than the backwaters of the European West. The 8th century is when industrial paper-making energized the Islamic territories with the first paper factory made in Samarkand. This contributed in launching the "Golden age of Islam". And in this Golden Age--- Eastern Christian scholars such as Johannitius (Hunayn Ibn Ishaq), Johannes Damascenus (Abu Zakaria) and others contributed by translating many Greek works. (Persian, Egyptian, Indian and Chinese knowledge was also in high demand) This led to the establishment of the publishing industry, the public libraries and Universities (a famous public library was the Dar al Hikma (house of Wisdom) established in 815.)

                        World history and geo-politics are interesting but complicated subjects?.......

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          Europe at this time (8th century) was made up of tribal affiliations---one such group called themselves (or were referred to) as Franks who were germanic peoples. These ruled over a (culturally) gallo-roman peoples in some parts of their territories. The battle of Tours can be considered as one out of many geo-political battles fought in regional power plays. (ex-718 Franks against the Saxons, 719 against Western Frisia, and later against Eastern Frisia,) and even after the battle of Tours, the fight for Frankish suzerainty continued.(especially against the Saxons).

                          The Islamic territories around this time extended from Spain in the West to the borders of China and India to the East, and the East was far more lucrative for its trade routes and technology than the backwaters of the European West. The 8th century is when industrial paper-making energized the Islamic territories with the first paper factory made in Samarkand. This contributed in launching the "Golden age of Islam". And in this Golden Age--- Eastern Christian scholars such as Johannitius (Hunayn Ibn Ishaq), Johannes Damascenus (Abu Zakaria) and others contributed by translating many Greek works. (Persian, Egyptian, Indian and Chinese knowledge was also in high demand) This led to the establishment of the publishing industry, the public libraries and Universities (a famous public library was the Dar al Hikma (house of Wisdom) established in 815.)

                          World history and geo-politics are interesting but complicated subjects?.......
                          Eh, I would refrain from calling it the Golden Age of 'Islam', seeing as how Islam actually only had such technology and scientific advancement because they stole it all from other people, particularly Persians and Greeks.
                          Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                          -Thomas Aquinas

                          I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                          -Hernando Cortez

                          What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                          -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
                            Eh, I would refrain from calling it the Golden Age of 'Islam', seeing as how Islam actually only had such technology and scientific advancement because they stole it all from other people, particularly Persians and Greeks.
                            Though I disagree with the charge of "stealing" I do agree that the use of "Islam" in referring to the period between the 8th/9th century to 14th/15th century as "Golden age of Islam" can be misinterpreted. I think perhaps the use of the term "Islam" in this context may have to do more with the characteristics of those who had the political power in this period rather than the religion of Islam. But, substituting other terms such as "Eurasia" or "Arab" instead of "Islam" is also problematic. The geographical boundaries include many ethnicities / cultures, it also includes parts of Europe, Asia, Middle East, North Africa....making it difficult to categorize/define.......

                            The transmission of knowledge was a shared venture. When Muslim scholars went to India and China (on the trade routes), they exchanged knowledge. In Islam, all human beings have a right to acquire knowledge because all knowledge is (a free gift) from God. Therefore, the pursuit of knowledge is a right and a responsibility. Once the work of translation was done and this knowledge was acquired and absorbed, the scholars embarked on advancing the existing knowledge and this progress was shared. (a few names of Jewish scholars of the Golden Age----Messala (Masha-allah ibn Athari, astrologer), Isaac Judaeus (Abu Yaqub, physician and philosopher)...and many more)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              siam, you should have listed a few more Jewish scholars.
                              The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                              [T]he truth Iím after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -ó Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by rogue06, 11-13-2020, 09:15 AM
                              44 responses
                              268 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post siam
                              by siam
                               
                              Started by Christian3, 10-25-2020, 07:17 AM
                              8 responses
                              67 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Trucker
                              by Trucker
                               
                              Started by Trucker, 10-23-2020, 11:09 AM
                              51 responses
                              351 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Trucker
                              by Trucker
                               
                              Started by JohnnyP, 01-23-2014, 04:30 PM
                              5 responses
                              7,409 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post Dan Zebiri  
                              Working...
                              X