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  • #76
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    The experts are Theodore Postol
    Postol, for his part, has been a long-term critic of all kinds of missile-defense systems.

    Dr. Mordechai Shefer, and an unnamed scientist who worked for Iron Dome’s manufacturer, Raytheon, till recently.
    The "unnamed scientist" is weapons scientist Richard Lloyd, who has developed a concept for a different warhead for the Tamir interceptors, and he thinks his design would be more successful. this is a clear conflict of interest. But even he understands the real problem with their not destroying the warhead mid-air is a financial one. "There aren’t enough Iron Dome batteries to cover the country", Lloyd says, "so interceptors have to race long distances and can’t always get in position in time to meet rockets head-on".


    After examining hundreds of videos of Iron Dome launchings during the military campaign, they came to the conclusion that the anti-missile weapon may’ve shot down 5% of its targets.
    That's false. The conclusion was that only 5-10% of the actual warheads were destroyed mid-air, but that the IDF figures for hitting the rocket's fuselage itself were accurate. The rockets were shot down, but the explosives were not neutralized mid-air.

    They define a definite kill as a missile hitting the nose of the rocket, where the weapons payload is. The IDF’s claims of success, they explain, result from confusion about the explosion that often occurred as the missile approached its target. In the vast majority of cases, the explosion was that of the missile self-destructing when it detected it would not strike the Palestinian rocket.
    No it wasn't. The vast majority were the Tamir blowing up near the rocket as designed, and the metal rods striking the body of the rocket, shredding the rocket and bringing it down without detonating the warhead mid-air.
    Last edited by Bill the Cat; 08-01-2014, 07:42 AM.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by siam View Post
      You have your biases and I have miine.....and it is unlikely that either of us will change our minds on this........
      What's MORE telling is that the FACTS don't change. Your religion is the bloodiest and most hateful on the planet today, and the face of your religion in these days is one straight from Hell.
      When your people love your own Children more than you hate Jews, things will be different, and more in line with your complete and total misrepresentation of your religion.
      Last edited by Cow Poke; 08-01-2014, 10:15 AM. Reason: left out when
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by siam View Post
        My personal opinion of I/P ---honestly...I don't know what to think---I live in the East, we have our own problems here but as a human being and a Muslim, I am against injustice and oppression. I started looking into I/P only after 9/11 because Al-Qaeda put it up as one of the reasons for being against America. It seems to me that I/P was a problem created because the Europeans and Russians did not want Jews in "their" nations and so they made a place for them in the Middle East which began this mess---and this doesn't surprise me since we Easterners have been clearing up the mess left by the colonial legacy as well.......

        But....
        I/P in the West is often translated as Jews against Muslims---My understanding is that this is Isreali (Jews) against Palestinian (Muslims AND Christians.)
        .....here is some info about Palestinian Christians (about 1% of the population) who are suffering alongside their Palestinian Muslim brothers.....

        "Palestinian Christians belong to several traditional communities of faith, communities that can be grouped into four broad categories. The first are the traditions of the Eastern Orthodox churches. These would include the Greek Orthodox communities, claiming a continuous presence in the Holy Land since the times of the apostles. The second group is made of up what is sometimes referred to as the “Oriental” Orthodox churches, such as the Syrian, Coptic, and Armenian Orthodox communities. A third category consists of those churches belonging to the Catholic family of churches. In addition to Roman Catholic communities, referred to in the Middle East as the “Latin” church, one finds “Eastern Catholic” or “Eastern Rite Catholic” churches. These churches, though in communion with Rome and recognizing the authority of the pope, have maintained their own distinctive liturgy and traditions. Members of such communities as Greek Catholic or Syrian Catholic outnumber the number of “Latin” Catholics in Palestine and have a long history of involvement in the Palestinian struggle for justice. Finally, there are various Protestant communities, including not only Anglican and Lutheran churches, present since the nineteenth century, but also independent evangelical churches, including Baptist, Pentecostal, and more.
        Today in Palestine, Christianity is experiencing what many would consider a crisis. This is not due to the growth of so-called Islamic fundamentalism or the persecution of “believers” by their Muslim neighbors, misrepresentations that are unfortunately used to distract from the realities of occupation. Instead, the plight of the Palestinian Christian is very much connected to that of the Palestinian Muslim in that both, whether in the Occupied Territories or inside Israeli itself, are experiencing daily injustices at the hands of oppressive and discriminatory policies imposed on them by the Israeli government.

        Palestinian Christians, like their Muslim brothers and sisters, have experienced a long history of dispossession and have not been immune to Israeli policies of occupation and discrimination. If anything, they have felt more strongly the feelings of forsakenness, knowing full well that many Christians in North America and Europe support without question the state of Israel in its oppression of their people. Daily experiences of humiliation at checkpoints, of land confiscation to make way for the separation barrier, the illegal occupation and colonization of Palestinian territory, lack of mobility and access to basic services, unemployment, poverty, and no sense of hope for a better future for their children have all contributed to this growing emigration of Palestinian Christians from the historical land of Palestine.

        Like their Muslim neighbors, who are prevented by checkpoints and roadblocks from making pilgrimage to the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, Christians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are denied basic religious freedoms, routinely prohibited from traveling very short distances to worship in one of the most holy sites in Christianity — the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in the Old City of Jerusalem, where the church commemorates Jesus’ crucifixion, burial, and resurrection from the dead."

        from
        http://electronicintifada.net/conten...ossession/6280

        I believe my religion calls for me to be Just, Compassionate and Merciful. In the case of I/P situation, there are deep wounds on both peoples of Israel and Palestine. No solution is possible unless these deep wounds are healed and IMO, healing may be possible by the application of Justice tempered with Compassion and Mercy. This approach is called Restorative Justice and it focuses on reconciliation rather than retribution.
        Please answer yes or no:

        Do you approve of Hamas firing rockets into Israel?
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #79
          Iron Dome---interesting---thanks. If I have time...I will look into it further......

          Yes/No answers---IMO, it is a disservice to our own intelligence to simplify and reduce complex problems/situations into black/white/yes/no. So I cannot answer yes/no to I/P and the Gaza conflict....it would go against my principles.

          My opinion on rockets---Palestinian Christians and Muslims have a right to life, to peace and prosperity and to live on their own home and land....just as much as Israelis do. Therefore, Palestinian self-defense is justified. I approve of Palestinian self defense in:-
          2008-9 Operation Cast lead---1417 Gazans killed, 13 Israeli
          2012---Operation pillar of defense---133 Gazans, 6 Isreali
          2014---Operation protective edge---so far 1400 plus Gazans, 63 Israeli

          We are all human beings---brothers and sisters in humanity and it is important to keep this in mind so that prejudice does not blind us. Prejudice leads to hate and hate leads to dehumanization....as seen in Apartheid South Africa. Nelson Mandela who fought for dignity and rights for the black African people was considered a terrorist by the U.S.A.

          Miko Peled is the Author of "The Generals Son" an Israeli. Here is his opinion about the I/P situation with historical facts from the IDF archives.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by siam View Post
            Yes/No answers---IMO, it is a disservice to our own intelligence to simplify and reduce complex problems/situations into black/white/yes/no. So I cannot answer yes/no to I/P and the Gaza conflict....it would go against my principles.
            Do your principles include justification for sawing the heads off of people? Can you answer THAT one yes/no?
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #81
              My opinion on rockets---Palestinian Christians and Muslims have a right to life, to peace and prosperity and to live on their own home and land....just as much as Israelis do. Therefore, Palestinian self-defense is justified. I approve of Palestinian self defense in:-
              Hamas disagrees with your assessment that Christians have a right to life, regardless of where they might be. Likewise atheists, and even Muslims who express views similar to your own.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by siam View Post
                My opinion on rockets---Palestinian Christians and Muslims have a right to life, to peace and prosperity and to live on their own home and land....just as much as Israelis do.
                Unfortunately, your Hamas buddies don't share those same sentiments, and won't rest until every Israeli is dead.

                Therefore, Palestinian self-defense is justified.
                So, if you fire a rocket at me, and I hammer you, you will claim "self-defense"?

                I approve of Palestinian self defense in:-
                I have a feeling you're about to say something really stupid....

                2008-9 Operation Cast lead---1417 Gazans killed, 13 Israeli
                The idiots in Gaza who are sworn to the destruction of Israel fire rockets into Israel, and Israel hammers them.

                2012---Operation pillar of defense---133 Gazans, 6 Isreali
                Some idiot in Gaza fires an anti-tank missile and hits an Israeli Jeep, and Israel hammers them.

                2014---Operation protective edge---so far 1400 plus Gazans, 63 Israeli
                Having not learned any lessons, some idiots in Gaza fire rockets into Israel, and Israel hammers them.

                Rinse, repeat.....

                PLEASE tell me what Hamas gains by firing rockets into Israel?
                Last edited by Cow Poke; 08-04-2014, 10:40 PM.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by siam View Post
                  Palestinian Christians and Muslims have a right to life, to peace and prosperity and to live on their own home and land...
                  However "Palestinian" Christians do not seem to fare well under radical Islam. What about that?
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by siam View Post


                    2008-9 Operation Cast lead---1417 Gazans killed, 13 Israeli
                    2012---Operation pillar of defense---133 Gazans, 6 Isreali
                    2014---Operation protective edge---so far 1400 plus Gazans, 63 Israeli
                    The lesson that ought to be learned is to not start a fight that you cannot win. It's like going into a rough bar, finding the biggest, toughest guy in the place and punching him -- then complaining how badly he mopped the floor with you.

                    Of course Hamas (who has been in charge of Gaza since 2006) doesn't give a rat's whisker about how many Palestinian civilians die as a result of the fights they pick. In fact it is pretty obvious that they hope for a high death toll and strongly urge the people there to stay in the areas that Israel announces in advance that they are preparing to attack.



                    Hamas has called upon the thousands that have evacuated northern Gaza[1] to return and stay in their homes despite the repeated warnings from the Israeli military that more airstrikes are imminent and civilians in the area are "extremely unsafe." In statement released by Hamas they said:

                    "To all of our people evacuating their homes - return immediately and do not leave your houses. Heeding Israel's warnings only aids [Israel] in achieving its agenda."


                    Hamas wants human shields and some are only too happy to comply which unfortunately takes them out of the category of non-combatants.








                    1. An estimated 17,000 Palestinians have evacuated Gaza and according to the U.N. roughly a quarter of the 70,000 residents of Beit Lahiya, a city located in the Gaza Strip north of Jabalia, have sought refuge in shelters it has established.
                    a city located in the Gaza Strip north of Jabalia

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      I smell a terrorist loyalist.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        1) Prejudice leads to hate and hate leads to dehumanization which is a sick and dangerous attitude. So lets make one thing clear---Any idea that one set of human beings "deserve to live" and another set of people "deserve to die" because of religion, nationality, ethnicity or some other excuse....is morally sick. All human beings deserve to live and to strive for justice, liberty, equality and peace.

                        2) Israel wants to eliminate Palestine. Israel wants its Palestinian Christian and Muslim population gone from land it arbitrarily claims for itself.---and this is from Israels own history. It deliberately targets or terrorizes civilians both during peace time and during war---especially children.

                        3) Palestinian Christians---
                        ---a Palestinian Christian referring to comments made by Amb. Oren....
                        "I am one of those Palestinian Christians living inside Israel to whom Oren refers. At no time in my life have I ever felt the ‘respect and appreciation’ by the Jewish state, which Oren so glowingly references. Israel’s Christian minority is marginalized in much the same manner as its Muslim one or, at best, quietly tolerated. We suffer the same discrimination when we try to find a job, when we go to hospitals, when we apply for bank loans, and when we get on the bus — in the same way as Palestinian Muslims.

                        Israel’s fundamental basis is as a racist state built for Jews only, and the majority of the Jewish population doesn’t really care what religion we are if we’re not Jewish. In my daily dealings with the State, all I have felt is rudeness and overt contempt.

                        Oren’s statement that ‘The extinction of the Middle East’s Christian communities is an injustice of historic magnitude’ is outright shocking to anyone familiar with even the basic history of how Israel was founded. I would like to remind him and others that this founding expelled thousands of Palestinian Christians from their homes in 1948 and displaced them, either forcing them to flee across the border or making them internal refugees. The ethnic cleansing of Palestinians that comprised the founding of Israel is, too, an injustice of historic magnitude. ..."
                        http://mondoweiss.net/2012/03/the-my...hristians.html

                        Another opinion by Timothy Seidel
                        Today in Palestine, Christianity is experiencing what many would consider a crisis. This is not due to the growth of so-called Islamic fundamentalism or the persecution of “believers” by their Muslim neighbors, misrepresentations that are unfortunately used to distract from the realities of occupation. Instead, the plight of the Palestinian Christian is very much connected to that of the Palestinian Muslim in that both, whether in the Occupied Territories or inside Israeli itself, are experiencing daily injustices at the hands of oppressive and discriminatory policies imposed on them by the Israeli government.

                        Palestinian Christians, like their Muslim brothers and sisters, have experienced a long history of dispossession and have not been immune to Israeli policies of occupation and discrimination. If anything, they have felt more strongly the feelings of forsakenness, knowing full well that many Christians in North America and Europe support without question the state of Israel in its oppression of their people. Daily experiences of humiliation at checkpoints, of land confiscation to make way for the separation barrier, the illegal occupation and colonization of Palestinian territory, lack of mobility and access to basic services, unemployment, poverty, and no sense of hope for a better future for their children have all contributed to this growing emigration of Palestinian Christians from the historical land of Palestine.

                        4) Hamas---"Hamas is a party-militia of the religious right. It does say it wants to see the Israeli government overthrown. Its leaders don’t, however, speak of committing genocide against Israelis. They say they want to recover their country, which was stolen from them by the Israelis in 1948. Colonial regimes always produce resistance movements.
                        The fact is that Hamas was supported by Israeli intelligence in the 1980s as a foil to the PLO, so Shin Bet and Mossad don’t seem to have been worried by the party charter.
                        Moreover, half the population of Gaza is children, who, how shall we put this, did not vote for Hamas in 2006. Even many Palestinians who did vote for it did so for internal reasons– they were protesting the corruption and authoritarianism of Fateh and the PLO. You can’t assume that they voted for it because they wanted to see it destroy the Israeli state.
                        Where Israel has worked out a truce with Hamas, Hamas has typically honored it. The truces have usually been broken by Israel. It isn’t true that it is impossible to deal with the organization. As recently as last month, the party had agreed to join Fateh in a national unity government, taking subordinate positions in a government that recognizes Israel."---
                        http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/zion...lestinian.html

                        5)http://www.juancole.com/2010/03/map-...od.html---this website shows a map of Palestine and reveals the ethnic cleansing/genocide by Israel.

                        6) Australian documentary reveals the moral sickness of some in Israel and IDF. (West Bank)

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          2) Israel wants to eliminate Palestine.
                          Did you actually type that with a straight face?

                          'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian

                          movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is

                          Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of

                          Palestine.' (Article 6)




                          'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

                          obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)


                          You support these terrorists. Admit it and save the long winded obfuscations
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          - Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            I smell a terrorist loyalist.
                            And here he is!
                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            1) Prejudice leads to hate and hate leads to dehumanization
                            Yes, Hamas is full of prejudice and hate, and wants to destroy Israel. And some people are just too dumb to realize that.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              2) Israel wants to eliminate Palestine. Israel wants its Palestinian Christian and Muslim population gone from land it arbitrarily claims for itself.---and this is from Israels own history. It deliberately targets or terrorizes civilians both during peace time and during war---especially children.
                              When he comes back with facts instead of propaganda, maybe he'll have something to say worth reading.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                                Did you actually type that with a straight face?

                                'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian

                                movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is

                                Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of

                                Palestine.' (Article 6)




                                'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

                                obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)


                                You support these terrorists. Admit it and save the long winded obfuscations
                                Don't forget Article 13

                                [Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.


                                Or Article 7

                                The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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