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This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to Islam. This forum is generally for theists only, and is not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theist may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI agree --- so how bout responding with some TRUTH. You have a bunch of bloodthirsty murderers acting out in the name of your religion, and you don't have the gust to call them on it.
Now, is this not a fact?
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Originally posted by siam View PostThere is so much misinformation and errors in some of the previous responses
Now, is this not a fact?
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There is so much misinformation and errors in some of the previous responses that I don't know where to begin !!............
So, I will give a very brief timeline with some comments that hopefully will clear up some errors of the previous responses for anyone interested in this period.
610 CE--Revelations of Quran begin
The Quran calls for the Meccans to return to the Monotheist faith of their Ancestor Prophet Abraham and his son Ishmael who had built the Kaaba (Sacred house of worship in Mecca).
The Meccan elites refuse because they fear their prosperity will be reduced if the pilgrimage to the Kaaba (housing many Gods at this time) is affected.
Meccans persecute the new converts
613, 615 CE--Some persecuted Meccan Muslims seek asylum with the Christian kingdom of Abysinnia. Meccan elites dispatch a group to bring back the Muslims but the Christian King refuses and instead gives Muslims his protection.
Persecution of Muslims left in Mecca continues
622 CE---The Hijra occurs (Meccan Muslims escape to Medina/Yathrib)
This event is the start of the Muslim calender.
Harassment by the Meccans continues but now the Muslim converts of Medina are also harrassed and threatened by the Meccans.
The Prophet(pbuh) makes peace treaties with the tribes in and around Medina.
622 CE--The Charter of Medina
624 CE--Battle of Badr
Meccan army told to turn back by Abu Sufiyan---but some among them choose to ignore that and decide to fight with the Muslims.
625 CE--Battle of Uhud
627 CE--Battle of the Trench
628 CE--Treaty of Hudaibiya (Peace treaty with the Meccans)
The Meccans broke the treaty terms several times, after repeated warnings to the Meccans to abide by the terms, the Prophet finally took an army to Mecca
630 CE---Mecca surrenders without a fight.
The Prophet gives a general amnesty to Meccans.
632---Prophet dies.
Some people posit that weather conditions helped the Muslims to victory in the Battle of Badr and the battle of the Trench, others might feel it was Divine intervention, still others theorize that the Prophet was a brilliant military strategist.......
Sun Tzu, (4th century, Chinese) gave some interesting advice in his "art of war"
---"In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemies country whole and intact, to shatter and destroy it is not so good"
---"When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will dampen."
---"...to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence, supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemies resistance without fighting".
Medina was---in today's terminology---multicutural and Jews, Muslims, Polytheists and others lived in and around the area. Apart from making peace treaties with the various tribes, the Prophet also set up the Medina Charter so that various peoples in Medina could live in harmony and peace TOGETHER. (The Quran discourages forced conversions.)
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You know, Siam, I've yet to see you say anything positive in this thread about the Jews in Israel, or attempt to sympathize with the atrocities committed against them by the terrorists in Gaza and the West Bank.
Now can you see it better?
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Originally posted by siam View PostSurah 47 verse 4. (translation Yusuf Ali)
"Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost."
a) smite at their necks---The armies of the 7th century wore armor which included the head and torso area and they fought with swords (and such)---therefore anyone advising a soldier to "smite them on their heads" would be simply idiotic.
The People of Medina were being attacked by the Meccan Army during this period.
b) generosity or ransom---(amnesty) release of prisoners without conditions or release of prisoners with conditions.
c) test you---(defensive) war is a test of human will---will we choose hate or will we choose justice. Often times battles become most ugly towards the end when the loosing side becomes desperate or the winning side wants revenge (for example---Kamikaze pilots of Japan and Hiroshima and Nagasaki (that had a death toll of about 150,000---conservative estimate))
Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. S. 9:29
Surah 5 verse 8
"oh you who believe, be steadfast witnesses for God in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that you deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to God. God is aware of what you do."
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran..._passages.html
I would certainly rather be persecuted, than slaughter people, wouldn't you?
Then there's the fact that historically, all peaceful verses in the Quran have been abrogated.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamo..._tolerance.htm
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Surah 47 verse 4. (translation Yusuf Ali)
"Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost."
a) smite at their necks---The armies of the 7th century wore armor which included the head and torso area and they fought with swords (and such)---therefore anyone advising a soldier to "smite them on their heads" would be simply idiotic.
The People of Medina were being attacked by the Meccan Army during this period.
b) generosity or ransom---(amnesty) release of prisoners without conditions or release of prisoners with conditions.
c) test you---(defensive) war is a test of human will---will we choose hate or will we choose justice. Often times battles become most ugly towards the end when the loosing side becomes desperate or the winning side wants revenge (for example---Kamikaze pilots of Japan and Hiroshima and Nagasaki (that had a death toll of about 150,000---conservative estimate))
Surah 5 verse 8
"oh you who believe, be steadfast witnesses for God in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that you deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to God. God is aware of what you do."
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the better way---http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&referenceID=78906
The Vatican’s Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue has released its annual Ramadan message to the world Muslims, calling for genuine fraternity between followers of the two faiths to promote mutual respect and friendship.
“Christians and Muslims are brothers and sisters in the one human family, created by the One God,” the message, released by the president and secretary of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, was quoted by Catholic World News. “We thank the Almighty for what we have in common, while remaining aware of our differences,” they continued. “We perceive the importance of promoting a fruitful dialogue built upon mutual respect and friendship. Inspired by our shared values and strengthened by our sentiments of genuine fraternity, we are called to work together for justice, peace and respect for the rights and dignity of every person.”
Urging Muslims to build bridges of peace, the message said that such a friendship would promote reconciliation and end tensions and conflicts. “May our friendship inspire us always to cooperate in facing these many challenges with wisdom and prudence,” it says. “In this way we will help to diminish tension and conflict, and advance the common good. We will also demonstrate that religions can be a source of harmony for the benefit of society as a whole.” Similar message is issued annually by the Vatican at the end of the Muslims’ holy fasting month of Ramadan. Last year’s message was signed by Pope Francis personally.
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Anyone can "spin" human suffering into whatever agenda they wish---for example---
Iraq death toll---500,000 plus (2003-2011) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4102855.html
can be spun into ----Americans kill half a million Muslims in Middle East
or
American-Phillipine War (1899-1902) fromm 200,000 to 1 million plus dead. Conducted under the (crazy) ideology of "Benevolent Assimilation" which is explained here---
http://opmanong.ssc.hawaii.edu/filipino/benevolent.html
"At the turn of the century, the economy of the United States was growing by leaps and bounds. American business interests favored the overseas expansion of the U.S. market and were eyeing China which was at this time being partitioned into spheres of influence by Western powers. Many U.S. leaders viewed the Philippines as a possible colony and base from which U.S. claims on China could be launched. While economic interest was preeminent, many Americans were also imbued with a "civilizing" zeal. White Man’s burden was often cited to justify U.S. annexation of the Philippines. In his Benevolent Assimilation Proclamation, U.S. President William McKinley argued that the Americans must educate, civilize, and uplift the conditions of the Filipinos. This self-righteous ideology, partly due to ignorance of the history of the Filipinos, was conveniently used by the Americans to rationalize their actions throughout the colonial period. The Filipinos had to be guided to "maturity" and "enlightenment" so that they may reap the fruits of American "tutelage" and "beneficence." To effect this "mission and vision," the United States must subdue any form of Filipino resistance, after all they were deemed "ignorant, uneducated, and uncivilized."
or
Vietnam War ---1 million plus dead because Americans wanted to IMPOSE "democracy"
.....so.....should the rest of the world go to war with America?......or is there a better way?
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostWell, when you have verses like this one in the Quran.
When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads. So it shall be; and if God had willed, He would have avenged Himself upon them; but that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of God, He will not send their works astray. S. 47:4 Arberry
It's not hard to see where ISIS gets their ideas.
NOT!
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWell, yeah, but you want me to hold hands with you while your brothers in the faith saw the heads off of MY brothers in the faith.
Your religion is vile, confused and blood thirsty.
When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads. So it shall be; and if God had willed, He would have avenged Himself upon them; but that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of God, He will not send their works astray. S. 47:4 Arberry
It's not hard to see where ISIS gets their ideas.
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