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  • #46
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    Surah 47 verse 4. (translation Yusuf Ali)
    That's not the one that teaches your bloodthirsty adherents to saw the heads off of human beings?
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by siam View Post
      The People of Medina were being attacked by the Meccan Army during this period.
      WOW, talk about REVISIONIST HISTORY or SPIN!!!!!!

      WHY, exactly, were "The People of Medina" attacked? Because the MUSLIMS had attacked THEM!!!!!

      Source: wiki

      The Battle of Uhud (Arabic: غزوة أحد‎ Ġazwat ‘Uḥud) was fought on Saturday, March 19, 625 (3 Shawwal 3 AH in the Islamic calendar) at the valley located in front of Mount Uhud, in what is now northwestern Arabia.[1] It occurred between a force from the Muslim community of Medina led by the Islamic prophet Muhammad, and a force led by Abu Sufyan ibn Harb from Mecca, the town from which many of the Muslims had previously emigrated. The Battle of Uḥud was the second military encounter between the Meccans and the Muslims, preceded by the Battle of Badr in 624, where a small Muslim army had defeated a larger Meccan army.

      Marching out from Mecca towards Medina on March 11, 625 AD, the Meccans desired to avenge their losses at Badr and strike back at Muhammad and his followers. The Muslims readied for war soon afterwards and the two armies fought on the slopes and plains of Mount ‘Uḥud.

      Whilst outnumbered, the Muslims gained the early initiative and forced the Meccan lines back, thus leaving much of the Meccan camp unprotected. When the battle looked to be only one step away from a decisive Muslim victory, a serious mistake was committed by a part of the Muslim army, which altered the outcome of the battle. A breach of Muhammad's orders by the Muslim archers, who left their assigned posts to despoil the Meccan camp, allowed a surprise attack from the Meccan cavalry, led by Meccan war veteran Khalid ibn al-Walid, which brought chaos to the Muslim ranks. Many Muslims were killed, and even Muhammad himself was badly injured. The Muslims had to withdraw up the slopes of ‘Uḥud. The Meccans did not pursue the Muslims further, but marched back to Mecca declaring victory.

      © Copyright Original Source

      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #48
        There is so much misinformation and errors in some of the previous responses that I don't know where to begin !!............

        So, I will give a very brief timeline with some comments that hopefully will clear up some errors of the previous responses for anyone interested in this period.

        610 CE--Revelations of Quran begin
        The Quran calls for the Meccans to return to the Monotheist faith of their Ancestor Prophet Abraham and his son Ishmael who had built the Kaaba (Sacred house of worship in Mecca).
        The Meccan elites refuse because they fear their prosperity will be reduced if the pilgrimage to the Kaaba (housing many Gods at this time) is affected.
        Meccans persecute the new converts
        613, 615 CE--Some persecuted Meccan Muslims seek asylum with the Christian kingdom of Abysinnia. Meccan elites dispatch a group to bring back the Muslims but the Christian King refuses and instead gives Muslims his protection.
        Persecution of Muslims left in Mecca continues
        622 CE---The Hijra occurs (Meccan Muslims escape to Medina/Yathrib)
        This event is the start of the Muslim calender.
        Harassment by the Meccans continues but now the Muslim converts of Medina are also harrassed and threatened by the Meccans.
        The Prophet(pbuh) makes peace treaties with the tribes in and around Medina.
        622 CE--The Charter of Medina
        624 CE--Battle of Badr
        Meccan army told to turn back by Abu Sufiyan---but some among them choose to ignore that and decide to fight with the Muslims.
        625 CE--Battle of Uhud
        627 CE--Battle of the Trench
        628 CE--Treaty of Hudaibiya (Peace treaty with the Meccans)
        The Meccans broke the treaty terms several times, after repeated warnings to the Meccans to abide by the terms, the Prophet finally took an army to Mecca
        630 CE---Mecca surrenders without a fight.
        The Prophet gives a general amnesty to Meccans.
        632---Prophet dies.

        Some people posit that weather conditions helped the Muslims to victory in the Battle of Badr and the battle of the Trench, others might feel it was Divine intervention, still others theorize that the Prophet was a brilliant military strategist.......

        Sun Tzu, (4th century, Chinese) gave some interesting advice in his "art of war"
        ---"In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemies country whole and intact, to shatter and destroy it is not so good"
        ---"When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will dampen."
        ---"...to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence, supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemies resistance without fighting".

        Medina was---in today's terminology---multicutural and Jews, Muslims, Polytheists and others lived in and around the area. Apart from making peace treaties with the various tribes, the Prophet also set up the Medina Charter so that various peoples in Medina could live in harmony and peace TOGETHER. (The Quran discourages forced conversions.)

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by siam View Post
          There is so much misinformation and errors in some of the previous responses
          I agree --- so how bout responding with some TRUTH. You have a bunch of bloodthirsty murderers acting out in the name of your religion, and you don't have the gust to call them on it.

          Now, is this not a fact?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            I agree --- so how bout responding with some TRUTH. You have a bunch of bloodthirsty murderers acting out in the name of your religion, and you don't have the gust to call them on it.

            Now, is this not a fact?
            And I notice he ignored my request for a third time. Quite telling.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              And I notice he ignored my request for a third time. Quite telling.
              Yeah, it appears he's here simply to spew forth the party line with no connection to reality.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                And I notice he ignored my request for a third time. Quite telling.
                That and he gives no evidence for his "timeline" other than his say so. At least I used source, who would say where they got their information. Namely Islamic scholars past and present. Here is a better timeline, and an answer to the charge that the Meccans started all of this.

                http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Timeline_of_Muhammad
                http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/antagonizing.htm

                Source: Answering Islam

                In regard to Muhammad’s early preaching in Mecca, Al-Tabari notes:

                Ibn Humayd- Salamah- Ibn Ishaq: The Messenger of God proclaimed God’s message openly and declared Islam publicly to his tribesmen. When he did so, they did not withdraw from him or reject him in anyway, as far as I had heard, UNTIL he spoke of their gods and denounced them. When he did this, they took exception to it and united in opposition and hostility to him, except for those of them whom God had protected from error by means of Islam. The latter were few in number and practiced their faith in secret. His uncle Abu Talib was friendly to him, however, and protected him and shielded him from them. The Messenger of God continued to do God’s work and to proclaim his message, undeterred by anything. When Quraysh saw that he would not give them any satisfaction, they objected to his departing from their ways and denouncing their gods, and seeing that Abu Talib protected him, shielded him from harm, and would not hand him over to them, a number of the nobles of Quraysh, consisting of such men as ‘Utbah b. Rabi‘ah, Shaybah b. Rabi‘ah, Abu al-Bakhtari b. Hisham, al-Aswad b. al-Muttalib, al-Walid b. al-Mughirah, Abu Jahl b. Hisham, al-‘As b. Wa’il and Nubayh and Munabbih, the sons of al-Hajjaj, went to Abu Talib and said, "Abu Talib, your nephew has reviled our gods, denounced our religion, derided our traditional values and told us that our forefathers were misguided. Either curb his attacks on us or give us a free hand to deal with him, for you are just as opposed to him as we are, and we will deal with him for you." Abu Talib gave them a mild answer and declined courteously, and they left him. The Messenger of God continued as before, proclaiming the faith of God and summoning people to it

                © Copyright Original Source

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by siam View Post


                  Medina was---in today's terminology---multicutural and Jews, Muslims, Polytheists and others lived in and around the area. Apart from making peace treaties with the various tribes, the Prophet also set up the Medina Charter so that various peoples in Medina could live in harmony and peace TOGETHER. (The Quran discourages forced conversions.)
                  Um, the passages that discouraged forced conversions such as Surah 2:256 where it said "Let there be no compulsion in religion" were officially abrogated by later verses such as the infamous "Verse of the Sword," Surah 9:5, where warfare against all unbelievers was mandated.
                  And when the sacred months have passed, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

                  IOW, kill them whenever and wherever you have a chance unless they convert to Islam. The verses following it only serve to reinforce what was said here.

                  This is also made quite clear by the various hadiths which are regarded as being more than mere commentaries but are revered as inspired Scripture as well.
                  Sahih Muslim (1:33): The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat."

                  Bukhari (2:24): "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

                  Bukhari (8:387): "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"

                  Bukhari (60:80): "The Verse:--'You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind.' means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam."

                  There are many others but I choose only some of those from the most highly venerated of the hadiths.

                  The fact is that Muslims are explicitly commanded to fight unbelievers until they are either dead, converted to Islam, or in a permanent state of subjugation under Muslim domination. There is no option for permitting people of other faiths to live and worship independently of Islamic rule in that the earlier verses that allowed for tolerance were repealed or "cancelled" by what Allah supposedly revealed to Muhammad later (and Muslim scholars are in agreement that the ninth surah was the very last portion of the Qur'an that was revealed).

                  This means that Islam sanctions violence as a means of coercing religion.
                  Last edited by rogue06; 07-27-2014, 03:42 PM. Reason: Change one of the whenevers to a wherever

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    "Let there be no compulsion in religion"
                    to
                    kill the idolaters
                    to
                    kill everyone that doesn't acknowledge Allah
                    to
                    kill anyone who isn't a member of the same sect
                    I wonder what the next stage of evolution will be.
                    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      to

                      to

                      to

                      I wonder what the next stage of evolution will be.
                      It should be noted that while Christians had their own share of forced conversions in our history, unlike Islam, such actions go against the expressed wishes of its founder.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        It should be noted that while Christians had their own share of forced conversions in our history, unlike Islam, such actions go against the expressed wishes of its founder.

                        Which is the exact opposite of Mohammed's wishes.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          It should be noted that while Christians had their own share of forced conversions in our history, unlike Islam, such actions go against the expressed wishes of its founder.
                          True enough. In Christianity, the development pattern was the much the same, but it never never got written up as a mandate.
                          sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            True enough. In Christianity, the development pattern was the much the same, but it never never got written up as a mandate.
                            And today, when some nutcase goes on a "God told me to kill" rampage, he is loudly and almost universally condemned at all levels of Christianity. (The only reason I say "almost" universally is because of nutcases like Westboro, which is loudly and almost universally condemned.....)
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Some points have been brought up to which I would like to respond.
                              I would have preferred not to give links---just names---as this leaves searchers with more options---but for those who are too lazy, I am making an exception......

                              Sources---For Muslims, the time of the Revelations and of the Prophet is "Sacred History" (about God) so events, actions and interpretations are viewed in this light. (Western historians prefer to take the "sacred" out and present plain "History"---or at least their view of it)

                              for a taste of traditional Muslim accounts, one can read----
                              "Muhammed: His life based on the earliest sources" by Martin Lings.
                              https://archive.org/details/MartinLi...arliestSources

                              for a view of both "Sacred History" and "Plain History" you can listen to---
                              Khalid Blankenship ...a Muslim Historian---The Life of the Prophet (1 and 2)
                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czFyujVPVs0

                              For a view of "Plain History" from a Non-Muslim, revisionist perspective you can listen to---
                              Fred Donner, How Islam Began.
                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RFK5u5lkhA


                              Karen Armstrong gives a non-Muslim, non-revisionist perspective (I have disagreements with some of her points)
                              Muhammed: A Prophet of our Time.
                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09TI5CHQuac

                              a book that I would recommend is "Muhammed for beginners" by Ziauddin Sardar and Zafar Abbas Malik.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Abrogation---Some are alleging that the idea is that some verses of the Quran are "not valid" because other verses abrogate/nullify them.

                                The idea in the Quran refers to previous scriptures (Torah, Injil...etc)---Surah 2 verse 106
                                "None of our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but we substitute something better or similar..."

                                The Quran also warns---Surah 3 verse 7-8
                                it begins with the explanation that the Quran has verses that are literal and metaphorical, that those who have "perversity in their hearts" use such verses to sow discord but those with knowledge know to read the whole Quran. Such people of understanding will grasp the message of the Quran.

                                The Quran gives the purpose of Guidance Surah 3 verse 103-104
                                103-tells people not to be divided but join together in the remembrance of God so that enemies can become brothers
                                104-encourages people to invite to all that is good and right and discourage all from wrong.

                                The Quran also explains "religion/way of God" in Surah 4 verses 124-125, verse 135
                                ---which explains it as those who do good deeds and follows the ways of Abraham.
                                ---it emphasizes the importance of justice and against following vain desires (such as greed, pride...etc)

                                The Quran Further advises in Surah 39 verse 18
                                "those who listen to the Word and follow the best of it...."

                                Basically, the Quran is a Guidance and as such exhorts people to be just, ethical and moral and discourages them from being bad. It warns that the Quran should be read as a whole and not used to cause discord and mischief among mankind.

                                Non-Quranic discourse among Muslims.
                                The Quran was revealed over an approx 22 year period and some Guidance for change was given "over time" for example the prohibition against intoxicants/alcohol. So, while most Muslims do not consume alcoholic beverage, others feel that consuming it in moderation may be acceptable. This difference depends on what weight is given to which verses---some arguing that the later verses be given more weight, others arguing all verses be given equal weight......" However, these debates are limited to specific issues and not applied to the Quran as a whole.

                                Use of Quran for propaganda
                                My opinion is that it is difficult to use the Quran for propaganda because many Muslims memorize the Quran from cover to cover. This means quoting the Quran out of context among Muslims would not be very easy. Here ahadith play a role---these are much easier to quote out of context and because there are so many of them ---and often contradictory, they are easier to manipulate to fit agendas of propaganda. It is a problem that has become worse because of the internet and is being recognized by the Muslim Ummah.


                                I would have liked to responded more but will leave it for another time......

                                Comment

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