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Muslims on Human Rights in the Middle East

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  • Muslims on Human Rights in the Middle East

    I have heard about Christians and Americans objecting to human rights issues with Christians and Jews in parts of the Middle East, and I have heard of Americans talking about women who can't drive in Saudi Arabia, and honor killings happening in Europe. Are Muslims upset about these things in highly Islamic/theocracratic states? (Perhaps this is a simplification of the issues/angles, but do they worry about human rights things with the Islamization of the west?)
    I am become death...

  • #2
    I am not from the Middle East, so I would like to start off by speaking more generally if it is ok.........

    "human" rights---In the Quranic context, rights are balanced with responsibilities---both are "God-given" (in a way). The implementation of rights/responsibilities must also be understood in the greater context of justice. In other words, justice will be an important underlying issue in discussion about "human" rights /"human" responsibilities.

    Driving in Saudi Arabia---To put restrictions on women's freedom of movement is unjust----however, driving (a car) as the best method of securing freedom of movement may be a different issue. (perhaps other means of transport my give more benefits....)

    killing females---female infanticide, killing/murder of wives, daughters, sisters, mothers or killing a female unjustly is an issue that occurs in all locations and cultures. Societies must find a just solution to this problem.

    Justice is of great concern to Muslims. To strive for justice is a responsibility. The concept of "Justice" may have different interpretations depending on the culture, traditions and society of that time and location.......
    For gender relations, my opinion is that positions should be negotiated with balance and harmony in mind so as to be just.

    Islamization of the West---I an uncertain s to the context of the word Islamization---could you elaborate?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by siam View Post
      "human" rights---In the Quranic context, rights are balanced with responsibilities---
      What "responsibility" balances the "right" of a Muslim to strap a bomb vest on and kill innocent children, and even other Muslims?
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • #4
        Why do human beings kill innocent people?---for example---what justification might an American drone operator give to himself when he goes about killing innocent men, women, and children? When contemplating such impossible questions, I think of the Tao te Ching

        "unevolved people are eager to act out of strength
        but a person of Tao values peace and quiet
        he knows that every being is born of the womb of Tao
        This means that his enemies are his enemies
        second, and his own brothers and sisters first"

        ....the Quran also speaks of the same idea when it refers to humanity as the children of Adam. Perhaps it is easier to focus on our own pain and therefore inflict pain on others, thereby forgetting that when we hurt one member of our human family, we also hurt ourselves....?....

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by siam View Post
          Why do human beings kill innocent people?---for example---what justification might an American drone operator give to himself when he goes about killing innocent men, women, and children? When contemplating such impossible questions, I think of the Tao te Ching
          First, I don't condone that. Second, it is TARGETING specific threats, with great care given to collateral damage.

          ....the Quran also speaks of the same idea when it refers to humanity as the children of Adam. Perhaps it is easier to focus on our own pain and therefore inflict pain on others, thereby forgetting that when we hurt one member of our human family, we also hurt ourselves....?....
          OK, now, please answer my question without all the kabuki dance....

          What "responsibility" balances the "right" of a Muslim to strap a bomb vest on and kill innocent children, and even other Muslims?
          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by siam View Post
            Why do human beings kill innocent people?---for example---what justification might an American drone operator give to himself when he goes about killing innocent men, women, and children?
            This deserves another pass.... "an American drone operator" "gives to himself" the authority to "go about killing innocent men, women and children?"

            That is just so incredibly ignorant across the board....

            1) No "American drone operator" has the authority to "give to himself" the killing of ANYBODY. That's such a goofy assertion.
            2) There is a HUGE outcry from all quarters when innocent people are killed in a drone strike. And it's not "innocent men, women and children" who are targeted. That's just asinine.
            3) Perhaps you don't recall Abu Ghraib, where our OWN JOURNALISTS exposed our excesses in the inhumane treatment of the enemy? Look at how we're kissing the butts of the Islamist Terrorists in Gitmo because we're overly sensitive to the "rights" of these hate-filled assassins.

            But, PLEASE, DO try again to answer....

            What "responsibility" balances the "right" of a Muslim to strap a bomb vest on and kill innocent children, and even other Muslims?
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

            Comment


            • #7
              "First, I don't condone that. Second, it is TARGETING specific threats, with great care given to collateral damage." ---You do not approve but since care is taken it is Ok?---if that is what you meant, it seems a contradiction?


              What "responsibility" balances the "right" of a Muslim to strap a bomb vest on and kill innocent children, and even other Muslims?---The question seems to come from an assumption that suicide is linked to Islam/Quran.....since this assumption is incorrect, I cannot answer the Question as is...however, Robert Pape, who has studied suicide bombings (Dying to Win) says that nationalism/patriotism play a large part in the justification.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by siam View Post
                You do not approve but since care is taken it is Ok?---if that is what you meant, it seems a contradiction?
                No contradiction. And I'm suspecting that English may not be your first language. I do not approve of drone strikes across the board. Are there situations where they are justified? I believe so. But IN those cases, a HUGE part of the calculus is "how do we do this so as to inflict the LEAST possible collateral damage".

                What "responsibility" balances the "right" of a Muslim to strap a bomb vest on and kill innocent children, and even other Muslims?---The question seems to come from an assumption that suicide is linked to Islam/Quran....
                No, not suicide --- mass MURDER. And in a very indiscriminate manner.

                since this assumption is incorrect,
                only because of your distortion.

                I cannot answer the Question as is...however, Robert Pape, who has studied suicide bombings (Dying to Win) says that nationalism/patriotism play a large part in the justification.
                I'm guessing you're not Robert Pape. So, AGAIN I ask YOU....

                What "responsibility" balances the "right" of a Muslim to strap a bomb vest on and kill innocent children, and even other Muslims? And, specifically, in YOUR words... "In the Quranic context".
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                Comment


                • #9
                  "No contradiction. ... I do not approve of drone strikes across the board. Are there situations where they are justified? I believe so. But IN those cases, a HUGE part of the calculus is "how do we do this so as to inflict the LEAST possible collateral damage".

                  ...this is an interesting notion----so...if a bomb was nuclear--thereby causing indiscriminate damage it would be unjustified but if it were a mere TNT or pipe bomb it would be ok because the "collateral damage" was less?....It seems there is something wrong with such notions......However, each to his own opinion I suppose.....

                  as to your question---I cannot answer it the way it is phrased.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    "No contradiction. ... I do not approve of drone strikes across the board. Are there situations where they are justified? I believe so. But IN those cases, a HUGE part of the calculus is "how do we do this so as to inflict the LEAST possible collateral damage".
                    Can you PLEASE learn to use the quote function?

                    If you "Reply with Quote", it automatically does the quote....

                    If you want to MANUALLY add quote tags, use [quote] for the beginning of the quote, and [/ quote] for the end (without the space between the / and the word "quote")

                    if you want to ADD a quote, you can simply highight the section you want to put in "quotes", then click the "cartoon quote" icon at the top right of the edit window.

                    ...this is an interesting notion----so...if a bomb was nuclear--
                    When was the last time a nuclear bomb was used in war? COULD IT BE that the calculus for HUGE collateral damage may be a factor, hence, supporting my position?

                    thereby causing indiscriminate damage it would be unjustified but if it were a mere TNT or pipe bomb it would be ok because the "collateral damage" was less?
                    It is most CERTAINLY a consideration --- a MAJOR factor in selecting the munitions or weapon.

                    ....It seems there is something wrong with such notions......However, each to his own opinion I suppose.....
                    There's something WRONG with trying to cause the LEAST amount of collateral damage to effect the mission? What culture do you come from?

                    as to your question---I cannot answer it the way it is phrased.
                    Because you know it's impossible to support suicide bombing "In the Quranic context". This is why you're having to dance all around the issue and cannot give an honest and straight answer.
                    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I do have a good friend who came to the U.S from Afghanistan to get her law degree for the purpose of returning to Afghanistan to fight for women's freedom. Her dad was willing to risk all in order to see that all of his girls were capable of having the same education as the boys received under the Taliban regime. Then again they are originally Persian and not Arabic, therefore do not share the same viewpoint. Does it make them angry? Yup. Is it considered an injustice? Yup. They are muslim and do not see how this agrees with their religion.
                      My Iranian friends find that the current Iranian regime is quite disgusting as well, and most people I know while they may adhere to their own customs, are very disgusted with human rights violations and find it to be in disagreement with their ideas of Islam. I believe many come here to enjoy the freedom and get away from fundamentalism, fighting and terrorism. Remember that they are oppressed too and their families live in fear.
                      A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                      George Bernard Shaw

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        My opinion is that Justice (or injustice) is a powerful emotional factor in most human struggles. The Taliban have ignorant and tribalistic attitudes but they formed because they wanted to fight the invaders who came into their country. In a way, they are fighting FOR freedom....

                        Human rights and women's rights---The Quran informs of the rights and responsibilities of humans towards all of God's creations, the rights and responsibilities of men and women towards each other, the rights and responsibilities of parents and children....so, Muslim organizations (Such as Musawah, sisters in Islam,...etc) concerned with human rights often refer to the Quran---as God-given rights are not as disputable as man-made rights.....

                        Knowledge---The acquisition of knowledge is important in Islam and is one reason Muslims were eager to acquire the knowledge of the Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Chinese and Indians and once acquired, to advance them.
                        One of the responsibilities of Parents is to ensure that their children (male and female) have access to the acquisition of knowledge. (Coincidentally, the importance of acquiring knowledge, led to the acquisition of paper-making from China which in turn revolutionized the knowledge industry by the 8th century---libraries and universities were built. Al Qarawiyin University was founded by a woman---Fatima al Fihri---in 859......)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          The Taliban have ignorant and tribalistic attitudes
                          I think that covers it.

                          Thanks!
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            A characteristic that promotes human rights (and responsibility) in a society is an attitude of respect for others. Manners/etiquette is one way that human behaviors are restricted so as to allow for rights of others...for example, the right to privacy in one's space is respected when others do not enter that space unannounced but wait to be invited---by knocking on a door and waiting for it to be opened---this leads to a sort of irony---that in order to have rights and freedom---one must also have rules and laws and respect those rules and laws.

                            This is why "the way" (religion/way of life) is called Islam (submission (to God's laws)) because the first step towards rights and liberty comes by giving up the illusionary freedom of doing as one pleases and submitting to rules and laws so that rights and freedoms of our selves and others are respected.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by siam View Post
                              A characteristic that promotes human rights (and responsibility) in a society is an attitude of respect for others. Manners/etiquette is one way that human behaviors are restricted so as to allow for rights of others...for example, the right to privacy in one's space is respected when others do not enter that space unannounced but wait to be invited---by knocking on a door and waiting for it to be opened---this leads to a sort of irony---that in order to have rights and freedom---one must also have rules and laws and respect those rules and laws.

                              This is why "the way" (religion/way of life) is called Islam (submission (to God's laws)) because the first step towards rights and liberty comes by giving up the illusionary freedom of doing as one pleases and submitting to rules and laws so that rights and freedoms of our selves and others are respected.
                              Is this the point where you clearly and unequivocally denounce the Islamist Extremists?
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                              Comment

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