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Was Muhammad illiterate? Could he read and write?

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  • Trucker
    replied
    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
    Trucker are you aware that there are some who say Jesus never existed and that Abraham never existed?
    Just as there are some that still believe the earth is flat.

    I wasn't just talking about what some people say. There happens to exist known historical facts and artifacts that raise legitimate questions regarding the existence of a historical Muhammad as revealed in scralized Islamic writings.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    The word "Iqra" can mean read/recite ---in any case, a text was not given to "read/recite" ---the revelations were "auditory"---but not through human ears, they entered his mind.
    I am aware the word could mean recite.

    When I first started studying Islam I bought the first biography of Muhammad. On page 106 it says:

    "When it was the night on which God honoured him with his mission and showed mercy on His servants thereby, Gabriel brought him the command of God. ‘He came to me,’ said the apostle of God, ‘while I was asleep, with a coverlet brocade whereon was some writing, and said, "Read!" I said, "What shall I read?" He pressed me with IT so tightly that I thought it was death; then he let me go and said, "Read!" I said, "What shall I read?" He pressed me with IT again so that I thought it was death; then he let me go and said "Read!" I said, "What shall I read?" He pressed me with IT the third time so that I thought it was death and said, "Read!" I said, "What then shall I read?" – and this I said only to deliver myself from him, lest he should do the same to me again… So I read it, and he departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was as though these words were written on my heart…’"

    This version says Muhammad was shown some writing and Muhammad read it. This version says that igra means to read. If this spirit got his words from your Allah, and if Muhammad could not read, then the spirit should have known that.

    Leave a comment:


  • siam
    replied
    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
    The story of Muhammad's visit in the cave by some being is:

    Sahih Bukhari 1.3)

    Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers)

    The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family.

    He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read. The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely.

    Muhammad said he could not read.
    The word "Iqra" can mean read/recite ---in any case, a text was not given to "read/recite" ---the revelations were "auditory"---but not through human ears, they entered his mind.

    Leave a comment:


  • siam
    replied
    Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    But, Islam's BIG problem today is that the Sunni and Shia sects do not follow the same collection of the hadith.

    Shias reject the ALL the Sunni hadith collections of "sahih" Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Nas'ai etc. Shia islam has its own unique set.

    Likewise sunnis reject ALL the Shia hadith collections as well.

    Islam needs the hadith traditions to show the way HOW TO practise islam in daily life.

    Without the hadith, islamic orthopraxy is DEAD. That's why the koran-only muslims are considered kuffar or infidels or at least apostates or murtaddin in islam.

    There is deep, irreconcilable disagreement ans differences and a big divide between the two Islams from centuries ago about how to apply koranic injunctions to daily life. From the divergent Hadiths both sects follow.

    Who knows what is right and wrong for daily muslim living, to execute the muslims fard u ain and fard kifayah then??

    You tell me.
    Compared to the variety of Christianities---Islam is considered more homogeneous...but I like a diversity of ideas...diversity gives a person more chances to exercise their free-will.
    Though God's guidance can be understood from the Quran alone, Islam as a path/way of life works best with both the Quran and the traditions because Law(Sharia) is important.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by Trucker View Post
    Perhaps. But there exists some strong historical indications against the existence of this "Muhammad" character as revealed in and by the sacralized Islamic writings.



    Yes. we know. There are many reasons supporting the idea that the alleged Gabriel Muhammad allegedly encountered was not the Gabriel revealed in and by the Scriptures. For a few examples:


    The entire article is interesting reading.

    And this alleged Gabriel is merely one of many serious problems the Muslims need to face up to. Instead theycentered come here and try to keep the discussion centered on supposed problems with Christianity and our scriptures.
    Trucker are you aware that there are some who say Jesus never existed and that Abraham never existed?

    Leave a comment:


  • Trucker
    replied
    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
    The better question is who was that Being who Muhammad first encountered that Muslims think was the angle Gabriel, keeping in mind that even Satan can masquerade as an angel of light.
    Perhaps. But there exists some strong historical indications against the existence of this "Muhammad" character as revealed in and by the sacralized Islamic writings.

    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
    THIS Gabriel did not identify itself as Gabriel in that first visit and all verses in the Qur'an come through this being. THIS angel attacked Muhammad, which doesn't sound like the Gabriel of the Bible.

    Yes. we know. There are many reasons supporting the idea that the alleged Gabriel Muhammad allegedly encountered was not the Gabriel revealed in and by the Scriptures. For a few examples:
    WAS THE SPIRIT THAT SQUEEZED MUHAMMAD AT THE CAVE?
    ALL PAGES
    Page 2 of 2
    It is of great importance to identify the spirit who squeezed Muhammad at the cave of Hira near Mecca. Was the spirit really angel Gabriel? The answer is absolutely No!

    A. Had the spirit been Gabriel, he would have calmed Muhammad and relieved his fear. But the spirit left him in extreme distress. The angel Gabriel appeared to many people before his alleged visit to Muhammad and each time the first thing he did was to allay that person's fear.

    i. When Gabriel appeared to Daniel, he was afraid but Gabriel touched him. Gabriel did not squeeze him or cause him pain, Gabriel only touched him (Daniel 8:16-18).

    ii. The angel Gabriel also appeared to Zachariah father of John the Baptist who is called Yahya in the Qur'an he identified himself and said to Zachariah : Do not be afraid, Zacharia ...... I am angel Gabriel that stand in the presence of God (Luke 1:13-19)

    iii. Gabriel appeared to Mary, mother of our Lord Jesus. Mary was scared but Gabriel said to her: Do not be afraid, Mary (Luke 1:30)

    B. Had the spirit been Gabriel, he would not have contradicted his former revelations. Six hundred (600) years before the birth of Muhammad, the real angel Gabriel said to Mary that she would bear a child who will be the Son of God: The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God (Luke 1:35).

    But the spirit which appeared to Muhammad told him Jesus was not the son of God:... The Christians call Christ the son of Allah .... Allah's curse be on them (Sura 9:30). If the spirit that appeared to Muhammad were angel Gabriel, it would not have said Jesus was not the son of God.

    Link to the complete article partially quoted above: https://www.thespiritofislam.com/moh...t.html?start=1
    The entire article is interesting reading.

    And this alleged Gabriel is merely one of many serious problems the Muslims need to face up to. Instead theycentered come here and try to keep the discussion centered on supposed problems with Christianity and our scriptures.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by Trucker View Post
    Precisely! Assuming, of course, that a '"Muhammad" as described in the Islamic sacralized writings ever existed in the first place.
    The better question is who was that Being who Muhammad first encountered that Muslims think was the angle Gabriel, keeping in mind that even Satan can masquerade as an angel of light.

    THIS Gabriel did not identify itself as Gabriel in that first visit and all verses in the Qur'an come through this being. THIS angel attacked Muhammad, which doesn't sound like the Gabriel of the Bible.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trucker
    replied
    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
    The fact is that Muhammad could be responsible with what is in the Qur'an without knowing how to read or write. All he would have to do is repeat what Jews and Christians told him and add his own thoughts.
    Precisely! Assuming, of course, that a '"Muhammad" as described in the Islamic sacralized writings ever existed in the first place.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    EGGzackly.
    Yes, and that would explain how so much Jewish and Christian folklore got into the Qur'an as "revelation."

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
    The fact is that Muhammad could be responsible with what is in the Qur'an without knowing how to read or write. All he would have to do is repeat what Jews and Christians told him and add his own thoughts.
    EGGzackly.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    This article seems to be from a website of "United submitters international" founded by Rashad Khalifa .....?.....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashad_Khalifa

    "Khalifa said that he was a messenger of God but not a prophet. He saw his role as purging the accretions that found their way into Islam via hadith and sunnah, which he claimed were corrupted. Instead, he believed that the beliefs and practices of Islam should be based on the Quran alone."


    Mainstream Islam (Sunni and Shia) hold that both the Quran and hadith/sunna are important.
    It doesn't matter where the article came from because the logic makes sense.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    And it came to pass, I remember there was much discussion about Joseph Smith being illiterate or not --- amusingly, one of the "proofs" that Smith received the Book of Mormon through supernatural means was because he wasn't, himself, very literate.
    The fact is that Muhammad could be responsible with what is in the Qur'an without knowing how to read or write. All he would have to do is repeat what Jews and Christians told him and add his own thoughts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    The generally accepted understanding is that Prophet Muhammad was "illiterate" the degree to which he was "illiterate" may be up for debate with some understanding that he was "unlettered" and others that he was "unscriptured".
    The story of Muhammad's visit in the cave by some being is:

    Sahih Bukhari 1.3)

    Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers)

    The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family.

    He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read. The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely.

    Muhammad said he could not read.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dan Zebiri
    replied
    But, Islam's BIG problem today is that the Sunni and Shia sects do not follow the same collection of the hadith.

    Shias reject the ALL the Sunni hadith collections of "sahih" Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Nas'ai etc. Shia islam has its own unique set.

    Likewise sunnis reject ALL the Shia hadith collections as well.

    Islam needs the hadith traditions to show the way HOW TO practise islam in daily life.

    Without the hadith, islamic orthopraxy is DEAD. That's why the koran-only muslims are considered kuffar or infidels or at least apostates or murtaddin in islam.

    There is deep, irreconcilable disagreement ans differences and a big divide between the two Islams from centuries ago about how to apply koranic injunctions to daily life. From the divergent Hadiths both sects follow.

    Who knows what is right and wrong for daily muslim living, to execute the muslims fard u ain and fard kifayah then??

    You tell me.

    Leave a comment:


  • siam
    replied
    The generally accepted understanding is that Prophet Muhammad was "illiterate" the degree to which he was "illiterate" may be up for debate with some understanding that he was "unlettered" and others that he was "unscriptured".

    Leave a comment:

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