Islam: Allah has no son

[Christian3]

Christian "claim" would not have been necessary if they had followed the message of the Jewish Prophet Jesus (pbuh) in the first place. Instead they made up a (non-biblical ) premise of "original sin" to explain the crucifixion and link it to (unjust) claims of "salvation". Neither Judaism nor Islam need a crucifixion to explain God's mercy or salvation....and neither religion has "original sin".

[siam]

Christian "claim" would not have been necessary if they had followed the message of the Jewish Prophet Jesus (pbuh) in the first place. Instead they made up a (non-biblical ) premise of "original sin" to explain the crucifixion and link it to (unjust) claims of "salvation". Neither Judaism nor Islam need a crucifixion to explain God's mercy or salvation....and neither religion has "original sin".

[Christian3]

The difference is in connotation. Our word choices depend on what we want to convey
...so, If a non-Muslim gunman shoots people---he is referred to as a "disturbed lone gunman", whereas a Muslim would be called a terrorist.
there are other word-choices such as colonizer vs conqueror, ...liberator vs occupier, ....resistor vs rebel....etc.

here are the synonyms of "deceive" and "plan"
decieve
swindle
defraud
cheat
trick
mislead
delude
fool
misguide
inveigle
seduce
entrap


plan
scheme
plan of action
idea
master plan
game plan
proposal
proposition
ploy
suggestion
project
program
system
method

can u tell the difference now?

[Christian3]

https://www.infoplease.com/us/religion/books-bible

As I understand it, the "Bible" is a library of books. Depending on the community, the content/list changes. A generally accepted "list" often includes 4 gospels (plural) in the list of New Testament books. In the Christian tradition, there are attempts to "harmonize" these gospels into a single account---and the Diatessaron by Tatian of the 2nd century is one such attempt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_harmony

Also...in the early centuries of Christianity, there were many Gospels (plural) in circulation, some more popular than others. Today, some of these are known as apocrypha.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Gospels

The Quran uses Evengel/Gospel (singular). This has led to speculation that a) it refers to a "lost" Gospel, or b) that it refers to the whole body of works of the Christian community. (Just as Taurat (singular) = Pentatuech, Midrashim, Talmud, Rabbinical writings)
IMO, for practical purposes....it is also ok to consider the present day New Testament as "Injeel" (singular)

How is it that you do not understand that the Gospel is not a book?

[siam]

The author of the Qur'an said he taught Jesus the Gospel:

3:48: And He will teach him the Book, and [the] wisdom, and the Taurat, and the Injeel.

I wonder what the author of the Qur'an thought the Gospel was?

https://www.infoplease.com/us/religion/books-bible

As I understand it, the "Bible" is a library of books. Depending on the community, the content/list changes. A generally accepted "list" often includes 4 gospels (plural) in the list of New Testament books. In the Christian tradition, there are attempts to "harmonize" these gospels into a single account---and the Diatessaron by Tatian of the 2nd century is one such attempt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_harmony

Also...in the early centuries of Christianity, there were many Gospels (plural) in circulation, some more popular than others. Today, some of these are known as apocrypha.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Gospels

The Quran uses Evengel/Gospel (singular). This has led to speculation that a) it refers to a "lost" Gospel, or b) that it refers to the whole body of works of the Christian community. (Just as Taurat (singular) = Pentatuech, Midrashim, Talmud, Rabbinical writings)
IMO, for practical purposes....it is also ok to consider the present day New Testament as "Injeel" (singular)

[siam]

The hadith considered sahih are widely revered by Muslims and generally considered inspired. In recent times some Muslims have sought to discount them and minimize their influence. I think they are embarrassed by them in much the same way Mormons have become of Brigham Young and several other of their prophets.

Still, among orthodox Muslims the hadiths are viewed as being sacred and second only to the authority of the Qur'an

watch the video for a more in-depth understanding of ahadith.

The "sayings" (hadith) of the Prophet are a tool used by scholars. One of the uses is in Tafsir (exegesis) tradition, along with the "israeliyat", the sira (Biography of the Prophet), azbab ul-nuzul (context/circumstance of revelation) ....etc to interpret the Quran. The average Muslim does not go about studying all the ahadith. It is not necessary...unless one is doing some type of scholarly work/research...etc. It is a very necessary scholarly tool---and it is unfortunate if some Muslims are unable to recognize this--- Islam is not "orthodoxy" (system of belief) but "a way of life" and from the time of the Prophet(pbuh) a community developed based on the systematic and systemic implementation of the principles of ethics/morality, rules/law advocated in the Quran.

The Prophet (pbuh) is NOT God. He is a human being who was given an extraordinary responsibility by God. In everyday life--the Prophet speaks in the 7th century context of the Arabian peninsula--with all the characteristics and hyperbole of common speech. Muslim scholars who study ahadith know this and understand the context surrounding a given "saying" so that they can interpret it. To compare---the Jewish tradition also has rabbi or scholars who study the various aspects of Jewish thought, philosophy and law for their Jewish communities.

Likewise, Sunna/ahadith are important tools in the formation of the Sharia "system" which includes Fiqh (Jurisprudence)---however, the average Muslim is NOT a lawyer or philosopher or a wisdom teacher/scholar. Most average Muslims pray, read Quran, and go about their daily lives.

The Quran is a very important text for all "systems" of life from ethics of relationships between parents/children, spouses, to communities and nations, to commerce/economy, jurisprudence, science, philosophy...etc However, the Quran is slim book considering the vast array of subjects/themes it covers. Therefore, its implementation into "systems" requires human intellect, reason, and ingenuity.

the complexity of ahadith tradtion....

[siam]

I see no difference between planned and deceive as I have clearly explained.

The difference is in connotation. Our word choices depend on what we want to convey
...so, If a non-Muslim gunman shoots people---he is referred to as a "disturbed lone gunman", whereas a Muslim would be called a terrorist.
there are other word-choices such as colonizer vs conqueror, ...liberator vs occupier, ....resistor vs rebel....etc.

here are the synonyms of "deceive" and "plan"
decieve
swindle
defraud
cheat
trick
mislead
delude
fool
misguide
inveigle
seduce
entrap


plan
scheme
plan of action
idea
master plan
game plan
proposal
proposition
ploy
suggestion
project
program
system
method

can u tell the difference now?

[Christian3]

The hadith considered sahih are widely revered by Muslims and generally considered inspired. In recent times some Muslims have sought to discount them and minimize their influence. I think they are embarrassed by them in much the same way Mormons have become of Brigham Young and several other of their prophets.

Still, among orthodox Muslims the hadiths are viewed as being sacred and second only to the authority of the Qur'an

I agree.

Sahih Muslim has already passed the test for being authentic.

Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. 'Umar b. Abd al-'Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). (Sahih Muslim, bk. 37, no. 6666, Siddique)

[rogue06]

ahadith---
I am not a hadith scholar so I cannot adequately answer questions about hadith.
the study of ahadith is a science. It is best done by scholars because of the way they are organized and the method of understanding the context and interpretation. It is best to understand hadith as tools that are used in combination of other tools such as Sunna/Sira and Fiqh....etc

here is an indepth lecture that explains about the hadith tradition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heitI0S9BCo

The hadith ARE NOT revelation. In fact, a comparative study of the linguistics of Quran and ahadith show they are of different authorship.
The Quran is a direct message from God to each individual human being---the Sharia (including hadith/sira/sunna) are the structure that form the "orthopraxy". Islam is mostly about orthopraxy---that is, one DOES Islam. (Islam = submit to God) and Sunna/Sharia shows how one can "submit to God"/Islam. The theology (belief/othodoxy) of Islam begins and ends with "God is One, there is none other". The quest for a Muslim is ---what can one DO for God?". The Quran is the answer to this question. The Sharia...etc...is how Muslims put the Quranic guidance into practice.
From the very beginning, Muslims were not "sola scriptura" or Quran only. This is because the Prophet (pbuh)himself put the Quranic guidance into practice in the community (sunna). (Guidance= principles of ethics, morality, law). It is also why the the nature of the themes between the Meccan verses and Medinan verses differ in that one (earlier) generally focuses more on the individual/soul and the other (later) on community.

IMO, The function/purpose of "religion" between Christianity and Islam is based on 2 very different premises. For 2000 years Christians have been occupied with "theology"---figuring out what exactly they believe.
The Muslim pre-occupation is about how humanity can serve God as individuals and as a community/nation.

The hadith considered sahih are widely revered by Muslims and generally considered inspired. In recent times some Muslims have sought to discount them and minimize their influence. I think they are embarrassed by them in much the same way Mormons have become of Brigham Young and several other of their prophets.

Still, among orthodox Muslims the hadiths are viewed as being sacred and second only to the authority of the Qur'an

[Christian3]

Bald claims again, and baseless as they are historically unverified, siam.

Just HOW do you or the koran know with any semblance of factual certainty that it was an "alleged crucifixion" of Jesus Christ?

Aside from mere after-the-facts claims from a dubious book coming 700-800 years LATER from the material and existential time and era directly relevant to that specific event about the Lord Jesus Christ.

He Himself mentioned his execution and death at the material time over 2,000 years ago, outside the city of Jerusalem. Centuries before Muhamed was even conceived by his parents.

And then you expect the koran to be more accurate pertaining to what ACTUALLY happened with Jesus Christ 700 years BEFORE the production of the koran??

JUST because of flawed claims that the koran can be the alleged "word of God"?!?

That's nothing more than merely blind, circular reasoning and unworthy of any serious consideration..

The author of the Qur'an said he taught Jesus the Gospel:

3:48: And He will teach him the Book, and [the] wisdom, and the Taurat, and the Injeel.

I wonder what the author of the Qur'an thought the Gospel was?

[Dan Zebiri]

Bald claims again, and baseless as they are historically unverified, siam.

Just HOW do you or the koran know with any semblance of factual certainty that it was an "alleged crucifixion" of Jesus Christ?

Aside from mere after-the-facts claims from a dubious book coming 700-800 years LATER from the material and existential time and era directly relevant to that specific event about the Lord Jesus Christ.

He Himself mentioned his execution and death at the material time over 2,000 years ago, outside the city of Jerusalem. Centuries before Muhamed was even conceived by his parents.

And then you expect the koran to be more accurate pertaining to what ACTUALLY happened with Jesus Christ 700 years BEFORE the production of the koran??

JUST because of flawed claims that the koran can be the alleged "word of God"?!?

That's nothing more than merely blind, circular reasoning and unworthy of any serious consideration..

Christians have a concept of "Perfect/Perfection" yet, how a Christian understands/explains God/Divine is not necessarily universal.
So, in Islamic thought--God/Divine cannot be confined with language---one cannot say God "is" or God "is not" as definitions of God, as this limits God/Divine concept. That is why Muslims have the concept of the 99 names. God is the restorer as well as the destroyer. God gives life and gives death. God bestows blessings and trials. Likewise, God is the one that veils and unveils knowledge as he wills.

Mirage---is an optical illusion
https://www.britannica.com/topic/mir...tical-illusion
A mirage is an optical illusion that often happens in the hot deserts. One might say "God deceives" or one could say, that our eyes deceive "us".
The Quran explains that the Jews did not kill Prophet Jesus (pbuh)---however, the Jews had rejected Prophet Jesus (pbuh) long before the alleged crucifixion took place....therefore, at that point, it did not matter what they believed. As for the Christians, the alleged crucifixion can be considered a "test" ---would they follow the message of "One God" of the Jewish Prophets and Prophet Jesus (pbuh) or follow the illusion of the crucifixion?...they chose to follow the illusion not the Message.
The Muslims were also tested---they were told to turn in prayer, away from Jerusalem and to Mecca. Prophet Abraham was also tested by God. Even Prophet Adam was tested.

From the Islamic perspective--we deceive ourselves when we let pride and arrogance blind us to truth. Rather than arguing about concepts of God/Divine--which only God can clear up---if we were to concentrate on being the best human beings within our capacity and thus create religious communities that exemplified and competed on the best human virtues, it would be of more benefit to humanity.

[Christian3]

Christians have a concept of "Perfect/Perfection" yet, how a Christian understands/explains God/Divine is not necessarily universal.
So, in Islamic thought--God/Divine cannot be confined with language---one cannot say God "is" or God "is not" as definitions of God, as this limits God/Divine concept. That is why Muslims have the concept of the 99 names. God is the restorer as well as the destroyer. God gives life and gives death. God bestows blessings and trials. Likewise, God is the one that veils and unveils knowledge as he wills.

Mirage---is an optical illusion
https://www.britannica.com/topic/mir...tical-illusion
A mirage is an optical illusion that often happens in the hot deserts. One might say "God deceives" or one could say, that our eyes deceive "us".
The Quran explains that the Jews did not kill Prophet Jesus (pbuh)---however, the Jews had rejected Prophet Jesus (pbuh) long before the alleged crucifixion took place....therefore, at that point, it did not matter what they believed. As for the Christians, the alleged crucifixion can be considered a "test" ---would they follow the message of "One God" of the Jewish Prophets and Prophet Jesus (pbuh) or follow the illusion of the crucifixion?...they chose to follow the illusion not the Message.
The Muslims were also tested---they were told to turn in prayer, away from Jerusalem and to Mecca. Prophet Abraham was also tested by God. Even Prophet Adam was tested.

From the Islamic perspective--we deceive ourselves when we let pride and arrogance blind us to truth. Rather than arguing about concepts of God/Divine--which only God can clear up---if we were to concentrate on being the best human beings within our capacity and thus create religious communities that exemplified and competed on the best human virtues, it would be of more benefit to humanity.

I see no difference between planned and deceive as I have clearly explained.

[Christian3]

ahadith---
I am not a hadith scholar so I cannot adequately answer questions about hadith.
the study of ahadith is a science. It is best done by scholars because of the way they are organized and the method of understanding the context and interpretation. It is best to understand hadith as tools that are used in combination of other tools such as Sunna/Sira and Fiqh....etc

here is an indepth lecture that explains about the hadith tradition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heitI0S9BCo

The hadith ARE NOT revelation. In fact, a comparative study of the linguistics of Quran and ahadith show they are of different authorship.
The Quran is a direct message from God to each individual human being---the Sharia (including hadith/sira/sunna) are the structure that form the "orthopraxy". Islam is mostly about orthopraxy---that is, one DOES Islam. (Islam = submit to God) and Sunna/Sharia shows how one can "submit to God"/Islam. The theology (belief/othodoxy) of Islam begins and ends with "God is One, there is none other". The quest for a Muslim is ---what can one DO for God?". The Quran is the answer to this question. The Sharia...etc...is how Muslims put the Quranic guidance into practice.
From the very beginning, Muslims were not "sola scriptura" or Quran only. This is because the Prophet (pbuh)himself put the Quranic guidance into practice in the community (sunna). (Guidance= principles of ethics, morality, law). It is also why the the nature of the themes between the Meccan verses and Medinan verses differ in that one (earlier) generally focuses more on the individual/soul and the other (later) on community.

IMO, The function/purpose of "religion" between Christianity and Islam is based on 2 very different premises. For 2000 years Christians have been occupied with "theology"---figuring out what exactly they believe.
The Muslim pre-occupation is about how humanity can serve God as individuals and as a community/nation.

The following is a good explanation of what theology is:

https://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-theology.html

[siam]

I understand what you are saying, but I don't really see any significant difference between planned and deceive.

When according to Surah 4:157, the Jews planned to kill Jesus and according to the Qur'an your Allah prevented Jesus' death by only making it appear Jesus was crucified and died, your Allah did deceive not only the Jews but also Jesus' disciples and Jesus' mother and all believers in Jesus since then.

Christians have a concept of "Perfect/Perfection" yet, how a Christian understands/explains God/Divine is not necessarily universal.
So, in Islamic thought--God/Divine cannot be confined with language---one cannot say God "is" or God "is not" as definitions of God, as this limits God/Divine concept. That is why Muslims have the concept of the 99 names. God is the restorer as well as the destroyer. God gives life and gives death. God bestows blessings and trials. Likewise, God is the one that veils and unveils knowledge as he wills.

Mirage---is an optical illusion
https://www.britannica.com/topic/mir...tical-illusion
A mirage is an optical illusion that often happens in the hot deserts. One might say "God deceives" or one could say, that our eyes deceive "us".
The Quran explains that the Jews did not kill Prophet Jesus (pbuh)---however, the Jews had rejected Prophet Jesus (pbuh) long before the alleged crucifixion took place....therefore, at that point, it did not matter what they believed. As for the Christians, the alleged crucifixion can be considered a "test" ---would they follow the message of "One God" of the Jewish Prophets and Prophet Jesus (pbuh) or follow the illusion of the crucifixion?...they chose to follow the illusion not the Message.
The Muslims were also tested---they were told to turn in prayer, away from Jerusalem and to Mecca. Prophet Abraham was also tested by God. Even Prophet Adam was tested.

From the Islamic perspective--we deceive ourselves when we let pride and arrogance blind us to truth. Rather than arguing about concepts of God/Divine--which only God can clear up---if we were to concentrate on being the best human beings within our capacity and thus create religious communities that exemplified and competed on the best human virtues, it would be of more benefit to humanity.

[siam]

ahadith---
I am not a hadith scholar so I cannot adequately answer questions about hadith.
the study of ahadith is a science. It is best done by scholars because of the way they are organized and the method of understanding the context and interpretation. It is best to understand hadith as tools that are used in combination of other tools such as Sunna/Sira and Fiqh....etc

here is an indepth lecture that explains about the hadith tradition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heitI0S9BCo

The hadith ARE NOT revelation. In fact, a comparative study of the linguistics of Quran and ahadith show they are of different authorship.
The Quran is a direct message from God to each individual human being---the Sharia (including hadith/sira/sunna) are the structure that form the "orthopraxy". Islam is mostly about orthopraxy---that is, one DOES Islam. (Islam = submit to God) and Sunna/Sharia shows how one can "submit to God"/Islam. The theology (belief/othodoxy) of Islam begins and ends with "God is One, there is none other". The quest for a Muslim is ---what can one DO for God?". The Quran is the answer to this question. The Sharia...etc...is how Muslims put the Quranic guidance into practice.
From the very beginning, Muslims were not "sola scriptura" or Quran only. This is because the Prophet (pbuh)himself put the Quranic guidance into practice in the community (sunna). (Guidance= principles of ethics, morality, law). It is also why the the nature of the themes between the Meccan verses and Medinan verses differ in that one (earlier) generally focuses more on the individual/soul and the other (later) on community.

IMO, The function/purpose of "religion" between Christianity and Islam is based on 2 very different premises. For 2000 years Christians have been occupied with "theology"---figuring out what exactly they believe.
The Muslim pre-occupation is about how humanity can serve God as individuals and as a community/nation.