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Islam: Allah has no son

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  • Dan Zebiri
    replied
    That is definitely NOT the God that Jesus Christ taught.

    Jesus was NOT a muslim in the pretentious way you claim for him. Not even by a long shot.

    He claimed equality with God Himself. He accepted worship to himself. He acted with actions of God Himself - by forgiving the sins of sinners, creating life out of nothing, raising the dead back to life, claiming pre-existence with God etc - ALL the features belonging to God alone - even accepting AND ENDORSING outright worship given to Him.

    The most ancient manuscripts that consistently document the above facts are still extant TODAY - and Pre-date your koran and Mohd. by Centuries, and have been reliably verified, and are plentiful - they have not been destroyed by burning like the different koran versions were under caliph no.3.










    Originally posted by siam View Post
    I agree.

    God does not require you to be "Muslim"---God only requires that you worship him alone and none other....this would make you a "muslim" (one who submits to God)
    Therefore, whatever "mysteries" there may be in your concept of the Divine, leave them upto God and worship God alone as Jesus (pbuh) taught in the Lords prayer. It is a very simple thing to do.
    God is not a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim---he is the creator of all humanity and all creation, therefore, is "Universal".
    God's compassion and mercy extends to all theists and non-theists alike because all humanity is equal under God---none superior/inferior to the other.
    There is only One God, the most compassionate, the most merciful.

    Leave a comment:


  • siam
    replied
    Originally posted by Trucker View Post
    Amen Brother!!! The "Isa" as defined by Muhammad is most definitely NOT the Jesus as defined in and by the Scriptures. Whoever or whatever composed the Qur'an appears to have had one of the most absurd understandings of Christianity and the HOLY SCRIPTURES I have ever encountered.
    It may be a difficult idea to accept--BUT---the Quran is not about Christianity or Christians. God is concerned with all of humanity---not just Christians...you know?!....

    Also---it is Christians who prefer to have an adversarial stance with regards to the Quran---the Quran itself considers them as part of the "Believers" along with the Jews and others who accept One God.
    There are similarities between Christianity and Islam and even in the understanding of Jesus Christ (pbuh)--if you want....we can explore those.

    Leave a comment:


  • siam
    replied
    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
    Jesus submitted to the will of God even to the cross.

    Christians and Jews also submit to the will of God, so we can be called "muslims" with a small "m." However, we are not Muslims with a capital "M" who follow Muhammad as you and other Muslims do
    I agree.

    God does not require you to be "Muslim"---God only requires that you worship him alone and none other....this would make you a "muslim" (one who submits to God)
    Therefore, whatever "mysteries" there may be in your concept of the Divine, leave them upto God and worship God alone as Jesus (pbuh) taught in the Lords prayer. It is a very simple thing to do.
    God is not a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim---he is the creator of all humanity and all creation, therefore, is "Universal".
    God's compassion and mercy extends to all theists and non-theists alike because all humanity is equal under God---none superior/inferior to the other.
    There is only One God, the most compassionate, the most merciful.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trucker
    replied
    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
    But Muslims do not know Jesus; you know Isa of the Qur'an who is not the Jesus who walked the earth.
    Amen Brother!!! The "Isa" as defined by Muhammad is most definitely NOT the Jesus as defined in and by the Scriptures. Whoever or whatever composed the Qur'an appears to have had one of the most absurd understandings of Christianity and the HOLY SCRIPTURES I have ever encountered.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    The Prophet (Pbuh) may not know...but God does.

    From the Muslim perspective---Jesus Christ is God's messenger---and just as God does not belong to only one group of humanity---his message also does not belong to only one group of people.
    For Muslims, Jesus Christ (pbuh) is a messenger of God who was a "muslim" (one who submits to God/one who does God's will) therefore, Muslims have a duty to know Prophet Jesus (pbuh) in the greater/general context of knowing the Prophets of God.
    But Muslims do not know Jesus; you know Isa of the Qur'an who is not the Jesus who walked the earth.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    Whether Shema is or is not Tawheed would be most appropriately decided between Jews and Muslims.

    The Shema uses the Hebrew word Echad (One)
    Surah 112 uses the Arabic word Ahad (One, Unique.)

    Surah 112
    Say he is God, One
    God the absolute*
    Not begetting, unbegotten
    and having as an equal---none.

    (The Arabic word As-Samad can mean absolute, eternal, the refuge...etc.)

    Here is a Jewish translation/explanation of Echad used in the Shema
    http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/hebrew/echad.html
    How to Translate the Shema
    In light of these multiple uses of echad, we must be open to reading the Shema with an open mind about what it denotes. What are our options? What makes most sense, within the Bible?

    The LORD is first.
    The LORD is one [God].
    The LORD is the same [as whom?]
    The LORD alone.
    The LORD is a single [Being, Deity, Elohim].
    The LORD is a unified [Being, Deity, Elohim].
    The LORD is unique, the one and only [God].
    Given the theme of YHVH's centrality in Deuteronomy (see below), and given the command aspect of the Shema ("and you shall love YHVH your God"), the sense of uniqueness seems most appropriate in this verse.


    A rabbi explains
    Of course, Echad depends on the context.

    For instance, one "Echad" bunch of bananas means one bunch, but it takes more than one banana to make a bunch.

    God does not have parts.

    The Shema does not use the word for an absolute one, which would be Yachid; it uses Echad.

    The Shema is saying to Israel that the LORD alone was to be their God.
    Last edited by Christian3; 05-19-2020, 07:35 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    The Prophet (Pbuh) may not know...but God does.

    From the Muslim perspective---Jesus Christ is God's messenger---and just as God does not belong to only one group of humanity---his message also does not belong to only one group of people.
    For Muslims, Jesus Christ (pbuh) is a messenger of God who was a "muslim" (one who submits to God/one who does God's will) therefore, Muslims have a duty to know Prophet Jesus (pbuh) in the greater/general context of knowing the Prophets of God.
    Jesus submitted to the will of God even to the cross.

    Christians and Jews also submit to the will of God, so we can be called "muslims" with a small "m." However, we are not Muslims with a capital "M" who follow Muhammad as you and other Muslims do

    Leave a comment:


  • Dan Zebiri
    replied
    More non-factual and senseless rubbish from a desperate dawagandist muslim propogandist like siam again... LOL! ROFL..!!

    Was Jesus Christ the Messiah EVER A MUSLIM? Do you really think that by spouting such false & nonsense claims you can attract us to islam??

    Come on, you must think we are as silly and daft as you to buy into such naive and deceptive polemics and propoganda that have no factual basis but only BASED ON SHEER, BLIND FAITH.

    Tell us just WHEN DID JESUS CHRIST EVER CONFESSED ISLAM'S SHAHADAH?!? - to become a muslim. ???

    Just WHEN did He EVER say that "Muhamed is the Rasool (messenger) of Allah"??? in addition to "there is no God but Allah"?? to convert to islam as is required by islam?

    To say that islam was Jesus Christ's 'natural religion' is totally laughable, nonsensical and a blatant lie...that cannot be proven by any FACTS, but only by deception and outright lies! Which is your habitual and despicable theologyweb misbehavior, siam.











    Originally posted by siam View Post
    The Prophet (Pbuh) may not know...but God does.

    From the Muslim perspective---Jesus Christ is God's messenger---and just as God does not belong to only one group of humanity---his message also does not belong to only one group of people.
    For Muslims, Jesus Christ (pbuh) is a messenger of God who was a "muslim" (one who submits to God/one who does God's will) therefore, Muslims have a duty to know Prophet Jesus (pbuh) in the greater/general context of knowing the Prophets of God.

    Leave a comment:


  • siam
    replied
    Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    Don't try to be dumb, Siam. Your quran or Muhamed NEVER MET ANY of Jesus Disciples in their lifetimes or even Jesus Christ Himself.

    Coming 700 years after His time, there's no way Muhd or his koran could ever know first hand the facts of His life, teachings, miracles, crucifixion and resurrection. Your false prophet Muhamed was way too late by at least 700 years.

    .....
    The Prophet (Pbuh) may not know...but God does.

    From the Muslim perspective---Jesus Christ is God's messenger---and just as God does not belong to only one group of humanity---his message also does not belong to only one group of people.
    For Muslims, Jesus Christ (pbuh) is a messenger of God who was a "muslim" (one who submits to God/one who does God's will) therefore, Muslims have a duty to know Prophet Jesus (pbuh) in the greater/general context of knowing the Prophets of God.

    Leave a comment:


  • siam
    replied
    Whether Shema is or is not Tawheed would be most appropriately decided between Jews and Muslims.

    The Shema uses the Hebrew word Echad (One)
    Surah 112 uses the Arabic word Ahad (One, Unique.)

    Surah 112
    Say he is God, One
    God the absolute*
    Not begetting, unbegotten
    and having as an equal---none.

    (The Arabic word As-Samad can mean absolute, eternal, the refuge...etc.)

    Here is a Jewish translation/explanation of Echad used in the Shema
    http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/hebrew/echad.html
    How to Translate the Shema
    In light of these multiple uses of echad, we must be open to reading the Shema with an open mind about what it denotes. What are our options? What makes most sense, within the Bible?

    The LORD is first.
    The LORD is one [God].
    The LORD is the same [as whom?]
    The LORD alone.
    The LORD is a single [Being, Deity, Elohim].
    The LORD is a unified [Being, Deity, Elohim].
    The LORD is unique, the one and only [God].
    Given the theme of YHVH's centrality in Deuteronomy (see below), and given the command aspect of the Shema ("and you shall love YHVH your God"), the sense of uniqueness seems most appropriate in this verse.


    A rabbi explains
    Last edited by siam; 05-19-2020, 01:23 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    The Quran says Prophet Jesus(pbuh) never said he was God---but always taught people to worship the One God.
    Therefore, if Christians want to deceive themselves with indirect claims---that is upto them. Its a matter between them and God. After all, nothing personally said (or written, or dictated) by Prophet Jesus (pbuh) himself is there as direct evidence.
    As a Muslim, I firmly believe that as a Prophet of God, Jesus Christ would never break the Shema/Tawheed---Just as all Prophets of God, throughout time, have never broken it.
    The Shema is not Tawheed.

    The Shema noted in Deuteronomy 6:4 simply means that the Lord YHWH alone was to be Israel's God.

    The problem was that there were so many gods competing for worship.

    But YHWH said that the people should have not other gods before me." (Exodus 20:2-3.)

    As Jewish commentator Rashi pointed out: "The Lord is our God; the Lord is one: The Lord, who is now our God and not the God of the other nations-He will be [declared] in the future “the one God,”

    Don't forget what Jesus said here:

    Matthew 28: 18 Then Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of[f] all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

    One God in three persons.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    Bart Ehrman---
    EHRMAN: Well, what I argue in the book is that during his lifetime, Jesus himself didn't call himself God and didn't consider himself God and that none of his disciples had any inkling at all that he was God. The way it works is that you do find Jesus calling himself God in the Gospel of John, our last Gospel. Jesus says things like: Before Abraham was, I am, and I and the father are one, and if you've seen me, you've see the father.

    These are all statements that you find only in the Gospel of John, and that's striking because we have earlier Gospels, and we have the writings of Paul, and in none of them is there any indication that Jesus said such things about him. I think it's completely implausible that Matthew, Mark and Luke would not mention that Jesus called himself God if that's what he was declaring about himself. That would be a rather important point to make.

    So this is not an unusual view among scholars. It's simply the view that the Gospel of John is providing a theological understand of Jesus that is not what was historically accurate.
    https://www.npr.org/transcripts/300246095
    Bart Ehrman changed his mind.

    “Until a year ago I would have said – and frequently did say, in the classroom, in public lectures, and in my writings – that Jesus is portrayed as God in the Gospel of John but not, definitely not, in the other Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

    “So yes, now I agree that Jesus is portrayed as a divine being, a God-man, in all the Gospels."

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    If that is all there is---then there is not much wisdom in it......
    I didn't say that was all there is.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dan Zebiri
    replied
    Don't try to be dumb, Siam. Your quran or Muhamed NEVER MET ANY of Jesus Disciples in their lifetimes or even Jesus Christ Himself.

    Coming 700 years after His time, there's no way Muhd or his koran could ever know first hand the facts of His life, teachings, miracles, crucifixion and resurrection. Your false prophet Muhamed was way too late by at least 700 years.

    That's why no reputable historians & scholars, worth their credentials EVER follow the Koran to study the historical facts for the
    Life of Jesus Christ.

    They ALL go back to the earliest documents closest to the life and times of Christ, never to the koran, hadith or ANY islamic sources to get the right facts of Jesus Christ. Those islamic sources are more polemics than anything else..based on legends and fairy tales found in later sources than the Gospels
    In the Bible.


    Originally posted by siam View Post
    The Quran says Prophet Jesus(pbuh) never said he was God---but always taught people to worship the One God.
    Therefore, if Christians want to deceive themselves with indirect claims---that is upto them. Its a matter between them and God. After all, nothing personally said (or written, or dictated) by Prophet Jesus (pbuh) himself is there as direct evidence.
    As a Muslim, I firmly believe that as a Prophet of God, Jesus Christ would never break the Shema/Tawheed---Just as all Prophets of God, throughout time, have never broken it.

    Leave a comment:


  • JonathanL
    replied
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    Bart Ehrman---
    EHRMAN: Well, what I argue in the book is that during his lifetime, Jesus himself didn't call himself God and didn't consider himself God and that none of his disciples had any inkling at all that he was God. The way it works is that you do find Jesus calling himself God in the Gospel of John, our last Gospel. Jesus says things like: Before Abraham was, I am, and I and the father are one, and if you've seen me, you've see the father.

    These are all statements that you find only in the Gospel of John, and that's striking because we have earlier Gospels, and we have the writings of Paul, and in none of them is there any indication that Jesus said such things about him. I think it's completely implausible that Matthew, Mark and Luke would not mention that Jesus called himself God if that's what he was declaring about himself. That would be a rather important point to make.

    So this is not an unusual view among scholars. It's simply the view that the Gospel of John is providing a theological understand of Jesus that is not what was historically accurate.
    https://www.npr.org/transcripts/300246095

    Well, Ehrman is wrong about Jesus never alluding to being God in the synoptics:


    The conclusion that the synoptics present a high Christological/divine view of Jesus does not require "cherry-picked quotes", but rather looking at those quotes in their proper context. Even the gospel of Mark, which by most scholars is considered to be the earliest of the gospels, has Jesus refer to himself as the Son of Man, seated at the right hand of the Power (i.e God) and coming with the clouds of heaven in both chapter 13 and 14, a clear claim of Jesus to being the divine Son of Man described in one of Daniel's visions and being equal with God. Mark also has Jesus claiming, in chapter 2, to have the authority to forgive sins (something which the Jews knew was a prerogative of God alone) on account of being the Son of Man, infusing the title with additional divine significance. We have Mark reporting Jesus walking on water, which again has pretty clear reference to OT passages such as Job 9:8 speaking about God, or Yahweh walking, or treading, on the waves of the sea. And there's also the account of Jesus calming the sea and the storm in Mark 4, and in the Old Testament having control and dominion of the sea is something of which only God/Yahweh is capable.

    In short, even the earliest gospel of Mark has an incredibly high Christological theology, and the author is heavily implying that Jesus is divine and equal with God, by recounting Jesus claiming divine titles for himself (i.e the Son of Man title) and by recounting Jesus doing acts that in the OT were prerogatives of Yahweh alone.

    But it doesn't stop there. We also have the letters of Paul. In Philippians we have the famous Christological hymn which is believed to have been written before Philippians (or as critical scholarship would have it, the fragments of different letters that were later combined together into what we now know as Philippians) being written down, perhaps as early as 40 AD, which depending on when Jesus was crucified (30 AD or 33 AD) means that the view of Jesus being divine and equal with God could have arosen as early as 10, perhaps even 7 years after his crucifixion. At the very least it puts a hard limit on how long it took for the belief that Jesus was divine to arise at around 30 years (if we're assuming that Philippians should be dated as late as possible, and assuming that the cited Christ Hymn/Poem wasn't composed that much earlier, which is debatable), which is still around 5-15 years earlier than the earliest gospel, if we're going by how critical scholars generally date Mark.

    Lastly there's also Romans (with the consesus view being that the letter was written somewhere between 55-57), where Paul claims in chapter 10, verse 9, that anyone who confesses that Jesus is Lord will be saved, and later in the chapter explains what he means by confessing that Jesus is Lord by citing Joel 2:32, where Lord is used as a stand-in for the divine name YHWH. In other words, Paul is claiming that anyone who believes in their heart that God raised Jesus from the death, and who confesses that Jesus is YHWH will be saved.


    To summarize, not only does the gospels present a high view Christological view, with Jesus claiming titles and performing acts that put him on equal footing with Yahweh in the Old Testament, we have Paul in his letters making explicit claims of Jesus being YHWH and citing an early Christian poem (composed probably years before Paul wrote it down in Philippians) which claims that was Jesus was pre-existent in the form of God and being equal with God.

    And that's not even counting all of the allusions to Jesus being the Wisdom of God (i.e Wisdom Christology) present in the synoptic gospels, which if taken into account would bring up the Christology of the synoptic gospels as being on the same level as John's Logos Christology, making any claims of any substantial development on the views on Jesus' divinity between the time of the synoptics and the gospel of John as being simply untenable. The view that John presents a substantially evolved and high/exalted view on Christ's divinity as opposed to the low Christological view of the synoptic gospels lacks any credible support in the texts themselves.


    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post715218

    And


    Your claim was that we don't see Jesus being referred to as God until John's gospel in 100 AD. I showed that Jesus is unequivocally claimed to be God in Philippians 2 and that Paul also makes the claim that Jesus is YHWH in Romans 10. Both of these letters are thought to have been written around 50-60 AD, which means that the idea that Jesus was divine arose at least 40 years earlier than John's gospel being written down (assuming you accept a dating of 100 AD for the gospel).

    If there is any "evolution" in the concept of who Jesus is in the New Testament writings it's so minor that it's barely noticeable. Jesus is presented as divine and equal with God almost from the very earliest of the NT writings that we have (Paul's letters) and the synoptic gospels themselves present Jesus as laying claims to titles and honors that his contemporaries understood to be blasphemous and claiming equality with God. Not to mention Jesus saying and doing things that in the OT were prerogatives of YHWH.

    So in short, your claim that we don't see Jesus being referred to as God, or divine, until in John's gospel is patently and demonstrably false.


    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post715322

    Leave a comment:

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