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A Superbly Flawed Quran..

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  • Dan Zebiri
    replied
    And so, after nearly a month of silence and ignorance our "friend" siam has disappeared and refused to address any of our questions posed above.

    I suspect he / she is incapable and unable to answer them. Also proving that it was only for muslim missionary activity that he made all his posts.

    what a shame!

    Leave a comment:


  • Dan Zebiri
    replied
    And here, this Jordanian Islamic scholar and well-known "sheikh" from the Arab world - sheikh Abu Abdul Rahman al-Zahiri, writer, thinker and researcher, teacher and student of the Koran - has lost his faith in the "original and authentic sources of Islam". That obviously includes the Koranic sources, sunnah and traditional sources for orthodox Islam today:-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jKd8z8thF8

    For muslims and propogandists of islam - get real and honest with yourselves, friends!

    If Arab speaking Muslims and scholars themselves now cannot accept the early sources of islam as authentic, how can you expect us - the non-Muslims, to ever do the same?


    Thinking Muslims and islamic scholars are rapidly leaving behind their traditional concepts and notions of Islam today - by the thousands.


    Look at Iran, Indonesia and now, the Arab Muslims themselves. scholars mind you, NOT mere lay people.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dan Zebiri
    replied
    Here are some more recent admissions and honest discussions about the major problems of the Koran's preservation (that it is far from perfect or even early in its historical development).

    Al-Fadi [a fluent-speaking Arab], Yasir Qadhi and Mohd Hijab [south asians]- ALL three of them muslims, except the first one Al Fadi, who WAS a muslim, before leaving and abandoning Islam to become a born-again Christian according to the words and teaching of Jesus Christ in the Gospel of John Chapter 3 in the Holy Bible.

    In this fascinating, eye-opening interview with Dr.Jay Smith and David Wood (all with PhDs), they unpack for muslims like Siam and his friends, why Dr.Yasir Qadhi confessed that the "standard narrative (for the Koran) has HOLES IN IT"!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_i3jzvgBhY

    It is worthwhile to remember that these scholars and academicians making this admission of the less than perfect preservation of the Koran comes from eastern scholars of Islam and who are all Muslims - like Dr. Yasir Qadhi.

    The ground is removed from muslim propogandists like Siam who had claimed that it was just the western Koranic scholarship who are making these claims. We now see muslim learned people and scholars who are NOT FROM the western world, but from the eastern hemisphere who confirm the dubious and unreliable nature of the Koran today!

    Leave a comment:


  • Dan Zebiri
    replied
    Siam, you asked and I gave you the links requested. I gave them weeks ago but all you can do siam, is to keep quiet. Naturally, because the facts I shared are not made up.

    The Muslim Ali Dashti's findings about the Koran:

    https://1400years.org/books/twentythreeyearsEN.pdf

    Dashti said that the language and forms of the verses/ayats of your Koran has already been replicated by other Arab speakers. In many places they have superseded the koranic quality.

    It is worth downloading and it is FREE!

    Here is another link to an example for that:

    https://www.amazon.com/True-Furqan-A.../dp/1579211755

    Called "The True Furqan" . So has the challenge of the Koran's inimitability and "beautiful forms" been met?

    Of course it has! And been superseded too. In grammar, vocabulary, style and poetic quality.



    Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    Some Muslims are beginning to denounce Islam due to the recent Quranic preservation conflict between Dr. Yasir Qadhi and Mohd.Hijab, as expected.

    Hijab's deletion of 25-minutes of his discussion with Dr.Qadhi arouses Muslim suspicions of destruction of evidence, some say damning kind:-

    https://youtu.be/d09ru0SksTY

    Leave a comment:


  • Dan Zebiri
    replied
    Some Muslims are beginning to denounce Islam due to the recent Quranic preservation conflict between Dr. Yasir Qadhi and Mohd.Hijab, as expected.

    Hijab's deletion of 25-minutes of his discussion with Dr.Qadhi arouses Muslim suspicions of destruction of evidence, some say damning kind:-

    https://youtu.be/d09ru0SksTY



    Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    Why did Mohd Hijab a preacher for Islam
    intentionally DELETE 25 minutes of his interview with Dr.Y. Qadhi? What is there to hide?

    Abdullah Sameer, an ex-muslim analyses the response of Mohd.Hijab's reaction about the unreliable preservation of the Koran. Very interesting development. ☝️

    https://youtu.be/Z_8Zv1sB4Aw

    Leave a comment:


  • Dan Zebiri
    replied
    Why did Mohd Hijab a preacher for Islam
    intentionally DELETE 25 minutes of his interview with Dr.Y. Qadhi? What is there to hide?

    Abdullah Sameer, an ex-muslim analyses the response of Mohd.Hijab's reaction about the unreliable preservation of the Koran. Very interesting development. ☝️

    https://youtu.be/Z_8Zv1sB4Aw

    Leave a comment:


  • Dan Zebiri
    replied
    Yes, it is not only the clips by Jay Smith and Hatun Tash which are worth book-marking to learn about the mutiple korans and the confused and sorry state of Koranic documentary studies today - exemplified by the open conflicts that recently happened between Muslims Mohd.Hijab and Yasir Qadhi.

    Muslims like Al-Fadi of Saudi Arabia and Rachid of Morocco have also exposed the very late and now questionable traditional sources of Islam, like the Sira of Ibn Hisham and ibn Ishaq, al-Bukhari's hadith (and other hadith collections) and the various manuscripts of the Koran itself. They have since left Islam and converted to Christianity after an extended time of searching.







    Originally posted by Trucker View Post
    Jay Smith has much to say about Islam.

    Try this one:
    : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EaopH_EPfc

    Very thought provoking, eh what?

    I suggest bookmarking it and taking notes.The inquisitive may wish to watch it more than once.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trucker
    replied
    Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    An eastern Muslim scholar like Yasir Qadhi shouldn't have gone to Yale university in the USA to get an M.Phil followed by a PhD in islam and koranic studies.

    Here, Dr.Jay Smith analyses an interview between Y.Qadhi and Mohd.Hijab, an aggressive muslim evangelist and da'i. The outcome is unsatisfactory much to M.Hijab who kept pressing Qadhi for a clear answer which Qadhi kept resisting and even waffles many times.

    https://youtu.be/vstGbZkjUcw

    Eastern muslim scholars are already embracing western scholastic conclusions about the Qiraat, ahruf, masahif and other aspects of koranic analysis and studies.

    In the tradition of Ali Dashti and even ibn Khaldun, there are brave modern muslim scholars who are unsure of the preservation and reliability of their Koran AND are saying so, themselves.
    Jay Smith has much to say about Islam.

    Try this one:
    : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EaopH_EPfc

    Very thought provoking, eh what?

    I suggest bookmarking it and taking notes.The inquisitive may wish to watch it more than once.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dan Zebiri
    replied
    An eastern Muslim scholar like Yasir Qadhi shouldn't have gone to Yale university in the USA to get an M.Phil followed by a PhD in islam and koranic studies.

    Here, Dr.Jay Smith analyses an interview between Y.Qadhi and Mohd.Hijab, an aggressive muslim evangelist and da'i. The outcome is unsatisfactory much to M.Hijab who kept pressing Qadhi for a clear answer which Qadhi kept resisting and even waffles many times.

    https://youtu.be/vstGbZkjUcw

    Eastern muslim scholars are already embracing western scholastic conclusions about the Qiraat, ahruf, masahif and other aspects of koranic analysis and studies.

    In the tradition of Ali Dashti and even ibn Khaldun, there are brave modern muslim scholars who are unsure of the preservation and reliability of their Koran AND are saying so, themselves.


    Originally posted by Trucker View Post
    That would just be standard operating procedure if my experience dealing with Muslims is any indication! Misrepresent and attack Christianity and all it stands for while keeping the discussion away from any factual, realistic historical Islam. Simply S.O.P.!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Trucker
    replied
    Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    You know, Trucker, I've got a not-so-strange hunch that siam will again, run away and ignore the above questions posed to muslims.

    Either that, or he'll avoid answering them truthfully and try to proffer some deflecting non-answer of irrelevance by saying Christians are hateful and the Bible has such things too..

    It's a typical cowardly escape from missionaries of that religion. Just so pathetic and sad!
    That would just be standard operating procedure if my experience dealing with Muslims is any indication! Misrepresent and attack Christianity and all it stands for while keeping the discussion away from any factual, realistic historical Islam. Simply S.O.P.!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Dan Zebiri
    replied
    You know, Trucker, I've got a not-so-strange hunch that siam will again, run away and ignore the above questions posed to muslims.

    Either that, or he'll avoid answering them truthfully and try to proffer some deflecting non-answer of irrelevance by saying Christians are hateful and the Bible has such things too..

    It's a typical cowardly escape from missionaries of that religion. Just so pathetic and sad!


    Originally posted by Trucker View Post
    Great "tell it like it is" post, sir!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Trucker
    replied
    Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
    Hello Siam sahib. Kindly do something right and proper for a change, ok? Show us WHERE and when I or Christians on Theologyweb ever said “hate the Muslims” and “hate islam” in that format, inciting people to “hate muslims” aggressively in the way you insinuate in your post below??
    It was you who brought up the point about sura al-fatihah (chapter 1 of the koran) – AFTER I had previously asked some genuine questions about doubtful aspects in this koranic chapter. Weirdly but Unsurprisingly, you deliberately IGNORED to answer the points I raised – as usual, and went on and on about the poetic and aesthetic but wholly irrelevant “beauty” of this sura. Trying to show sura fatiha’s “attractiveness” perhaps in a futile effort to neutralize the hate speech taught and promoted in sura fatihah (1) v.6-7.

    NOW, you try to hide behind FALSE accusations on the Christians that are BASELESS as they are patently IRRELEVANT. This is just another worthless deflection tactic from you to run away from answering my GENUINE query that is not hate speech in any way!

    Then, you also shamelessly insinuate things about Jesus Christ that neither you nor the Koran are qualified to claim nor pontificate or preach to Christians about. We Christians have time and time again said the JESUS of the Gospel IS NOT THE SAME JESUS FOUND IN THE KORAN. We reject the caricature and deformity that the koran presumptuously calls “Isa” to equate him with the Biblical Jesus Christ BUT that only came 700 years after the original facts recorded in the earliest records about Christ.

    Because you have pretentiously ignored the material Question that is DIRECTLY pertinent to sura 1 of the koran, you have another chance to answer the genuine and sincere question about the HATE SPEECH enjoined in the very FIRST and opening chapter of your Koran itself..:

    In sura 1 vs 6-7, Muslims pray that Allah guide them to the straight path, saving them from the path of those who have incurred his anger and/or who have gone astray:

    "Show us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose portion is not WRATH, and who go not ASTRAY." A. Yusuf Ali.

    According to the MUSLIM (NOT Christian) authorities, the true meanings of verses 6-7 are that THE JEWS are the ones who have incurred Allah’s WRATH/CURSE/CONDEMNATION, and THE CHRISTIANS are those who have GONE ASTRAY & LOST THEIR WAY:
    "The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians)." S. 1:7 Hilali-Khan

    Narrated Adi bin Hatim: I asked Allah’s Messenger – Muhamed - about the Statement of Allah: "Gharil maghdubi ‘alaihim - not the way of those who earned Your Anger - WRATH AND CURSE!" he replied: "THEY ARE THE JEWS".

    And 2: "Walad dallin (nor of those who went astray)," he replied: "THE CHRISTIANS, and they are THE ONES WHO WENT ASTRAY".

    This is confirmation of indisputable VILIFICATION and Hate Speech from these koran verses against the Christian and the Jews, nothing LESS.

    [This Hadith is quoted by At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud]. (Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Interpretation of the Meanings of the Noble QurÂ’an in the English Language with Comments from Tafsir At-Tabari, Tafsir Al-Qurtubi and Tafsir Ibn Kathir and Ahadith from Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and other Ahadith books [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Lahore, Houston, New York], Part 1: From Surah 1 to 5, p. 30.

    The above statements are 100% CONFIRMATION from recognised modern muslim scholars and authorities like Muhd Muhsin Khan, Taqiuddin al-Hilali and the classical ulamas and the Tafsirs (commentaries, exegesis etc) of recognised luminaries like ibn Kathir, Tabari, Qurtubi
    THIS is the Koran’s real HATE speech that calls for God’s wrathful curses upon the Jews AND unwarranted VILIFICATION of Christians as “lost souls gone astray” seventeen times a day, EVERY SINGLE DAY when muslims do the salat / namaz / compulsory prayers daily. THAT’S THE REAL HATE SPEECH, siam.

    Answer me, WHY does the koran incite such vicious hate speech against Christians and Jews among the muslims ? – That is its real teachings & instructions – and confirmed by all the reputable Islamic tafsir authorities. And please, don’t come up with some patronizing nonsense that the Biblical Jesus teaches the same kind of things as the above in the koran. That is just shameless and baseless deflection to avoid the hate speech and vilifications against Jews and Christians explicitly enjoined in your Koran!
    Great "tell it like it is" post, sir!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Trucker
    replied
    Originally posted by siam View Post

    Is this what Christianity is? It teaches people to hate others? Does it not have any goodness within it that it needs to go about finding "evil" in your brothers?
    Does your conduct represent the teachings of Jesus Christ? I was under the impression that Jesus Christ (pbuh) taught ...to love your neighbor and your enemies, to turn the other cheek, to look at ones own faults before judging others....etc....?
    Indeed He did command us to love our fellow man .... all our fellow men, including Muslims, sir. Not only that .... by the power of the Holy Spirit which HE sends to us WE CAN HONESTLY SAY TO WE .... WE LOVE YOU!!! We must point out for you the error of your belief out of love!! Now show us from the Qur'an and your Sharia where you are commanded to love Jews, Christian, and other non-Muslims!! And before you show us be sure what your are showing us HAS NOT BEEN ABROGATED!!! SHOW US, SIR!! If you don't know this you don't really know diddly swat and if you do know it you are being less than candid with us!!

    Originally posted by siam View Post
    Is there anything good in your New Testament that you can show that is similar/equal to the Quran? If there is, then post the verses from the NT instead of spending your energies on hate. Let us compete in virtues and goodness
    What area you talking about?????? All that from one whose supreme example committed genocide, ordered political murders of old men, women with suckling children, and so on, was a self confessed liar, and on and on and on and on!!

    Until you are ready to admit these things you are not ready for a serious and honest discussion!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Dan Zebiri
    replied
    Hello Siam sahib. Kindly do something right and proper for a change, ok? Show us WHERE and when I or Christians on Theologyweb ever said “hate the Muslims” and “hate islam” in that format, inciting people to “hate muslims” aggressively in the way you insinuate in your post below??
    It was you who brought up the point about sura al-fatihah (chapter 1 of the koran) – AFTER I had previously asked some genuine questions about doubtful aspects in this koranic chapter. Weirdly but Unsurprisingly, you deliberately IGNORED to answer the points I raised – as usual, and went on and on about the poetic and aesthetic but wholly irrelevant “beauty” of this sura. Trying to show sura fatiha’s “attractiveness” perhaps in a futile effort to neutralize the hate speech taught and promoted in sura fatihah (1) v.6-7.

    NOW, you try to hide behind FALSE accusations on the Christians that are BASELESS as they are patently IRRELEVANT. This is just another worthless deflection tactic from you to run away from answering my GENUINE query that is not hate speech in any way!

    Then, you also shamelessly insinuate things about Jesus Christ that neither you nor the Koran are qualified to claim nor pontificate or preach to Christians about. We Christians have time and time again said the JESUS of the Gospel IS NOT THE SAME JESUS FOUND IN THE KORAN. We reject the caricature and deformity that the koran presumptuously calls “Isa” to equate him with the Biblical Jesus Christ BUT that only came 700 years after the original facts recorded in the earliest records about Christ.

    Because you have pretentiously ignored the material Question that is DIRECTLY pertinent to sura 1 of the koran, you have another chance to answer the genuine and sincere question about the HATE SPEECH enjoined in the very FIRST and opening chapter of your Koran itself..:

    In sura 1 vs 6-7, Muslims pray that Allah guide them to the straight path, saving them from the path of those who have incurred his anger and/or who have gone astray:

    "Show us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose portion is not WRATH, and who go not ASTRAY." A. Yusuf Ali.

    According to the MUSLIM (NOT Christian) authorities, the true meanings of verses 6-7 are that THE JEWS are the ones who have incurred Allah’s WRATH/CURSE/CONDEMNATION, and THE CHRISTIANS are those who have GONE ASTRAY & LOST THEIR WAY:
    "The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians)." S. 1:7 Hilali-Khan

    Narrated Adi bin Hatim: I asked Allah’s Messenger – Muhamed - about the Statement of Allah: "Gharil maghdubi ‘alaihim - not the way of those who earned Your Anger - WRATH AND CURSE!" he replied: "THEY ARE THE JEWS".

    And 2: "Walad dallin (nor of those who went astray)," he replied: "THE CHRISTIANS, and they are THE ONES WHO WENT ASTRAY".

    This is confirmation of indisputable VILIFICATION and Hate Speech from these koran verses against the Christian and the Jews, nothing LESS.

    [This Hadith is quoted by At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud]. (Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Interpretation of the Meanings of the Noble QurÂ’an in the English Language with Comments from Tafsir At-Tabari, Tafsir Al-Qurtubi and Tafsir Ibn Kathir and Ahadith from Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and other Ahadith books [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Lahore, Houston, New York], Part 1: From Surah 1 to 5, p. 30.

    The above statements are 100% CONFIRMATION from recognised modern muslim scholars and authorities like Muhd Muhsin Khan, Taqiuddin al-Hilali and the classical ulamas and the Tafsirs (commentaries, exegesis etc) of recognised luminaries like ibn Kathir, Tabari, Qurtubi
    THIS is the Koran’s real HATE speech that calls for God’s wrathful curses upon the Jews AND unwarranted VILIFICATION of Christians as “lost souls gone astray” seventeen times a day, EVERY SINGLE DAY when muslims do the salat / namaz / compulsory prayers daily. THAT’S THE REAL HATE SPEECH, siam.

    Answer me, WHY does the koran incite such vicious hate speech against Christians and Jews among the muslims ? – That is its real teachings & instructions – and confirmed by all the reputable Islamic tafsir authorities. And please, don’t come up with some patronizing nonsense that the Biblical Jesus teaches the same kind of things as the above in the koran. That is just shameless and baseless deflection to avoid the hate speech and vilifications against Jews and Christians explicitly enjoined in your Koran!



    Originally posted by siam View Post
    "...I was amazed at the deep knowledge some of the posters here have regarding the depth of the evil that Islam is"

    Is this what Christianity is? It teaches people to hate others? Does it not have any goodness within it that it needs to go about finding "evil" in your brothers?
    Does your conduct represent the teachings of Jesus Christ? I was under the impression that Jesus Christ (pbuh) taught ...to love your neighbor and your enemies, to turn the other cheek, to look at ones own faults before judging others....etc....?
    Is there anything good in your New Testament that you can show that is similar/equal to the Quran? If there is, then post the verses from the NT instead of spending your energies on hate. Let us compete in virtues and goodness.

    rather than spending so much time on anti-Muslim sites that fill you with hate---learn about Christianity. I do not know what is missing in your lives that hate has become your go-to solution for dealing with life---but if you were to look deeper into the religion of your choice----I am sure there must be something there that will offer you comfort instead of relying on hatred of others as a means to make your lives better.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christian3
    replied
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    "...I was amazed at the deep knowledge some of the posters here have regarding the depth of the evil that Islam is"

    Is this what Christianity is? It teaches people to hate others? Does it not have any goodness within it that it needs to go about finding "evil" in your brothers?
    Does your conduct represent the teachings of Jesus Christ? I was under the impression that Jesus Christ (pbuh) taught ...to love your neighbor and your enemies, to turn the other cheek, to look at ones own faults before judging others....etc....?
    Is there anything good in your New Testament that you can show that is similar/equal to the Quran? If there is, then post the verses from the NT instead of spending your energies on hate. Let us compete in virtues and goodness.

    rather than spending so much time on anti-Muslim sites that fill you with hate---learn about Christianity. I do not know what is missing in your lives that hate has become your go-to solution for dealing with life---but if you were to look deeper into the religion of your choice----I am sure there must be something there that will offer you comfort instead of relying on hatred of others as a means to make your lives better.
    siam, yes Christians are to love others. Part of loving others is to pray for them and point out their errors.

    If a verse in the Qur'an has been misinterpreted, it is up to you to correct it.

    Leave a comment:

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