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A Superbly Flawed Quran..

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  • #91
    Moving on to Surah 2.

    This is a long Surah therefore it might be easier to try to understand it thematically. Scholars have their own ways of categorizing the themes......I propose using this structure of 9 groupings---
    1. Faith vs. unbelief (1 – 20).
    2. Allah’s creation and knowledge (21 – 39).
    3. Deliverance of Law to Children of Israel (40 – 103).
    4. Abraham was tested (104 – 141).
    5. Ka’ba is the new qibla (142 – 152).
    6. Muslims will be tested (153 – 177).
    7. Deliverance of Law to Muslims (178 – 253).
    8. Allah’s creation and knowledge (254 – 284).
    9. Faith vs. unbelief (285 – 286).

    The COW
    1. A.L.M.

    2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.

    3. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

    4. And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.

    5. They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.

    6. As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.

    7. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

    8. Of the people there are some who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.

    9. Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!

    10. In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).

    11. When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"

    12. Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realize (it) not.

    13. When it is said to them: "Believe as the others believe:" They say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.

    14. When they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: "We are really with you: We (were) only jesting."

    15. Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro).

    16. These are they who have bartered Guidance for error: But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction,

    17. Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.

    18. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).

    19. Or (another similitude) is that of a rain-laden cloud from the sky: In it are zones of darkness, and thunder and lightning: They press their fingers in their ears to keep out the stunning thunder-clap, the while they are in terror of death. But Allah is ever round the rejecters of Faith!

    20. The lightning all but snatches away their sight; every time the light (Helps) them, they walk therein, and when the darkness grows on them, they stand still. And if Allah willed, He could take away their faculty of hearing and seeing; for Allah hath power over all things.

    http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/2.htm

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    • #92

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      • #93
        siam, when studying the Qur'an one does not understand what the text is saying without the aid of commentaries.

        Also, citing verses from the Qur'an does not address the purpose of this thread.
        Last edited by Christian3; 06-02-2020, 08:13 AM.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by siam View Post
          A) Some things can get lost in translation---one of them is the saj (rhythm). This can be heard in the video link. It is important to understand that the Quran is not primarily a written text---but an auditory experience.
          Many compositions have great great rhythm but have little or no intellectual or spiritual value and certainly did not originate in Yahweh.

          You seem much better at diverting and avoiding answering simple questions presented to you.

          Gee .... I wonder why!

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Trucker View Post
            Many compositions have great great rhythm but have little or no intellectual or spiritual value and certainly did not originate in Yahweh.

            You seem much better at diverting and avoiding answering simple questions presented to you.

            Gee .... I wonder why!
            The basic question is: Was it the real Gabriel of the Bible who Muslims believe dictated the Qur'an to Muhammad?

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
              The basic question is: Was it the real Gabriel of the Bible who Muslims believe dictated the Qur'an to Muhammad?
              Perhaps a better basic question would be: Was there really ever any Spiritual entity encountered in this life by this alleged Muhammad character???

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                Perhaps a better basic question would be: Was there really ever any Spiritual entity encountered in this life by this alleged Muhammad character???
                We know that this Being Muhammad thought he encountered did not identify itself as the Angel Gabriel.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Tafsir (exegesis)---
                  It is correct that a tafsir is needed to put the Quranic verses in context. As a guide to life, one must understand the principles in order to implement them. However, there is another purpose to the Quran which is devotional. The auditory experience is devotional prayer. Such an experience is universal and does not require "tafsir". Sacred sounds can be found in many religions---even Christianity.....

                  here are some examples:-
                  Buddhist chant (with music)
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm4hTcRhoqI

                  Christian chant
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBwh1OXw6uI

                  I use the Yusuf ali Tafsir, but there are many Tafsir to choose from. My purpose for the effort of this exercise is the hope that I might learn from different perspectives or that questions might open up different understanding of the Quran for me. To put up a Tafsir straight away may constrain/bias readers to one point of view?....

                  however, to those who would prefer to read with Tafsir---here is a link
                  https://www.altafsir.com/ViewTransla...nslationBook=7

                  Here in the East, we have ink paintings (Sumi-e). In this art form, both the white space and the inked space are equally important. IMO, the Quran also has this interesting quality---what is said is as interesting as what is not said. This becomes more obvious when we compare Biblical stories with Quranic stories.

                  as we move into the first 20 verses, 2 points to note are:-
                  a) Islam (salaam = peace) = submit to God's will and a Muslim/muslim = one who submits to God's will. The Quran is "knowledge" that explains God's will.
                  b) All knowledge (including sciences, technology, philosophy...etc) is from God and is revealed as God wills. Speculation on what is "unknown" (mystery) will distract from the message of God.(God's will)

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    The COW
                    1. A.L.M.
                    The surah starts with a "mystery" ---the letters/sacred sounds ---- Alif Lam Meem.
                    We can speculate on these---but it will distract from the message that follows therefore it is best to leave these alone.


                    2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
                    3. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
                    4. And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.

                    those who fear God---I prefer the translation "awe" instead of fear. The Arabic word is mutaqeen --- as in---one who has Taqwa. Taqwa = love of God/God consciousness. Note:- it does not say "Muslim".
                    The Quran introduces itself and specifies its audience....the mutaqeen/those who love God---and defines them as people who believe in the unseen, pray, do charity, etc. Note:-many Polytheists of that time did not believe in the "hereafter". They believed that once a person died, they were dead---the end.


                    The rest of the verses describe the nature of the hypocrites (munafiqun) and the rejecters (kafirun)
                    "6. As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe."
                    Some people are honest about their rejection, others pretend and are dishonest.
                    "8. Of the people there are some who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe."

                    An important concept/theme in the Quran is Justice. As pointed out in Surah 1, God is the Judge/Master on Judgement day. There are 2 types of "Justice"---a) between humanity and God, (humans wrong themselves/their souls) b) between humans. (humans wrong other humans).
                    When humans reject ethico-moral principles (Guidance) they wrong their self/soul, ...when they accept, they benefit their own self/soul.

                    Comment


                    • for those who are impatient---here is a summary version of Surah 2
                      https://www.patheos.com/blogs/qurana...-ramadan-2015/

                      Comment


                      • 1. Faith vs. unbelief (1 – 20).
                        2. Allah’s creation and knowledge (21 – 39).
                        3. Deliverance of Law to Children of Israel (40 – 103).
                        4. Abraham was tested (104 – 141).
                        5. Ka’ba is the new qibla (142 – 152).
                        6. Muslims will be tested (153 – 177).
                        7. Deliverance of Law to Muslims (178 – 253).
                        8. Allah’s creation and knowledge (254 – 284).
                        9. Faith vs. unbelief (285 – 286).

                        http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/2.htm

                        21. O ye people! Adore your Guardian-Lord, who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness;

                        22. Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (the truth).

                        23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

                        24. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.

                        25. But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever).

                        26. Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path),-

                        27. Those who break Allah.s Covenant after it is ratified, and who sunder what Allah Has ordered to be joined, and do mischief on earth: These cause loss (only) to themselves.

                        28. How can ye reject the faith in Allah.- seeing that ye were without life, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return.

                        29. It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

                        30. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

                        31. And He taught Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the nature of these if ye are right."

                        32. They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."

                        33. He said: "O Adam! Tell them their natures." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"

                        34. And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

                        35. We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

                        36. Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."

                        37. Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

                        38. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

                        39. "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."

                        Comment


                        • Comment


                          • siam, what ever gave you the idea that we wanted you to post verses of the Qur'an here in this topic thread???

                            Comment


                            • siam, are you having a problem finding the verses in the Qur'an related to the making of the Golden Calf? Do you want some help?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by siam View Post
                                1. Faith vs. unbelief (1 – 20).
                                2. Allah’s creation and knowledge (21 – 39).
                                3. Deliverance of Law to Children of Israel (40 – 103).
                                4. Abraham was tested (104 – 141).
                                5. Ka’ba is the new qibla (142 – 152).
                                6. Muslims will be tested (153 – 177).
                                7. Deliverance of Law to Muslims (178 – 253).
                                8. Allah’s creation and knowledge (254 – 284).
                                9. Faith vs. unbelief (285 – 286).

                                http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/2.htm

                                21. O ye people! Adore your Guardian-Lord, who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness;

                                22. Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (the truth).

                                23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

                                24. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.

                                25. But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever).

                                26. Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path),-

                                27. Those who break Allah.s Covenant after it is ratified, and who sunder what Allah Has ordered to be joined, and do mischief on earth: These cause loss (only) to themselves.

                                28. How can ye reject the faith in Allah.- seeing that ye were without life, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return.

                                29. It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

                                30. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

                                31. And He taught Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the nature of these if ye are right."

                                32. They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."

                                33. He said: "O Adam! Tell them their natures." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"

                                34. And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

                                35. We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

                                36. Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."

                                37. Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

                                38. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

                                39. "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."
                                Well isn't that special. Not to mention totally irrelevant to the discussion.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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