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A Superbly Flawed Quran..

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    I've never actually read the Quran, before. I might be inclined to take you up on this offer.
    It seems you are not affiliated with Christianity...Perhaps you can offer insights that I can learn from or a perspective that is different from the normative Muslim reading.
    Generally, discussions with Christians do not help much in broadening my intellectual horizons.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
      How about you explaining the story of the Golden Calf in the Qur'an?

      This is the story of the Golden Calf in the Bible:

      https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...2&version=HCSB
      Thanks for the link---we could do a comparative study.
      But do understand that if we r going to compare stories Bible and Quranic stories---it will be a thematic analysis and will not offer any criteria for "understanding"/knowing the coherence and structure of the Quran. If you are ok with that---we can proceed.
      give me a bit of time to read and understand the Bible story...ok.

      Comment


      • #78
        Translations---I prefer Yusuf Ali...but for the purpose of discussion---we can use an internet link so that everyone can participate without investing in a Quran hardcopy.

        The Quran begins with Al Fatiha (the opening) It is important to start with this as it outlines the purpose of the Quran.
        after that we can start with Surah 2 or start with the smaller surahs at the back....either is fine. Surahs 2, to 5 have more Bible stories, the smaller Surahs 114 backwards are related to the major themes that will be explored in the Quran....sort of an intro to the Quranic paradigm.

        links
        http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/
        multiple english translations for comaprision
        http://corpus.quran.com/translation....pter=1&verse=7

        Comment


        • #79
          The Opening

          In the name of God the most merciful, the most compassionate
          Praise be to God
          Lord sustainer of the worlds
          the compassionate and the caring
          master of the day of reckoning
          to you we turn to worship
          and to you we tun in time of need
          guide us along the straight road
          the road of those to whom you are giving
          not those with anger upon them
          not those who have lost the way

          This translation somewhat attempts to capture some of the poetic rhythm of the Arabic. It is not a Yusuf ali translation.

          here is Psalm 1 (first 6 verses)
          Psalm 1
          1 Blessed is the one
          who does not walk in step with the wicked
          or stand in the way that sinners take
          or sit in the company of mockers,
          2 but whose delight is in the law of the Lord,
          and who meditates on his law day and night.
          3 That person is like a tree planted by streams of water,
          which yields its fruit in season
          and whose leaf does not wither—
          whatever they do prospers.

          4 Not so the wicked!
          They are like chaff
          that the wind blows away.
          5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
          nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

          6 For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous,
          but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.
          https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...+1&version=NIV

          Structure and meaning of "the opening"
          http://quranic-musings.blogspot.com/...ah-part-i.html

          Comment


          • #80
            For those interested in an indepth analysis of just one Surah---Surah al Fatiha (the opener) here is a video link (Note---Its in English but has a a lot of Arabic)
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gja_tG3Rp88

            here is how it sounds...there is a rhythm to the sounds.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by siam View Post
              The Quran begins with Al Fatiha (the opening) It is important to start with this as it outlines the purpose of the Quran.
              Did the Qur'an originally begin with the Fatiha? Seems it did not!

              Why is the Fatiha NOT God speaking to Muhammad?

              Is the Fatiha in "perfect Arabic" as the Qur'an claims for itself??

              You have problems, sir.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by siam View Post
                Thanks for the link---we could do a comparative study.
                But do understand that if we r going to compare stories Bible and Quranic stories---it will be a thematic analysis and will not offer any criteria for "understanding"/knowing the coherence and structure of the Quran. If you are ok with that---we can proceed.
                give me a bit of time to read and understand the Bible story...ok.
                Just post all the verses from the Qur'an related to the Golden Calf.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Placement of Fatiha and other Surahs.
                  ---The Fatiha is placed where it is because it is prayer for guidance. The rest of the Quran is an answer to this prayer. Another reason is its structural composition. The Quran has a complex structure, and themes and Surah are often paired. For example, Surahs 113 and 114 are thematically paired. Both are prayers to God seeking refuge with God. This connects with Al-Fatiha which also ends with asking God to help against falling away from the right path. Thus, the Quranic surahs form a circle with the end and the beginning thematically connecting together.

                  The Quran is for all humanity. Al fatiha begins with an introduction to the concept of God---Cherisher, Sustainer, most Gracious, most Merciful and Master of Judgement day.

                  Surah 2 straight away answers the prayers of "the opening"--- "this is the book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt...." here, the Quran (Guidance) is introduced to humanity.

                  Guidance about ethics and morals must include etiquette---and proper introductions are part of good etiquette.

                  Note:---According to Muslim tradition---the Surah and verses are placed as God/Prophet intended.
                  Last edited by siam; 06-01-2020, 02:31 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Really??

                    Who decided on the right or appropriate "placement" of such words of sura al-fatiha in the koran? Muhamed? Allah? the editor of the koran?

                    According to your own admission, sura 1 / al-fatihah is "a prayer". It sounds like an appeal to God...How can THAT be any word from God??

                    Does Allah/your god PRAY TO HIMSELF? That would make 2 gods in the koran!

                    How can the kalam / claimed word of God be in a prayer form right THROUGH?

                    The prayer there is not any instruction to live by the koran's prescription. If God sent down those words as his kalam, then he must BE PRAYING TO HIMSELF

                    - appealing to be shown the straight path

                    - does God NOT KNOW what that path IS? He must be a very ignorant god! Not qualified to be any 'god'.

                    - "Thee alone we worship" - Allah / your god is praying to himself - since every sura or chapter of the koran supposedly "came down from the
                    mother of the book / ummul kitab" - the 'repository of his words'

                    Surah Fatihah's contents are totally inconsistent with all the other suras / chapters of the koran because it is a "prayer" as you say! It all doesn't make any sense whatsoever.







                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    Placement of Fatiha and other Surahs.
                    ---The Fatiha is placed where it is because it is prayer for guidance. The rest of the Quran is an answer to this prayer. Another reason is its structural composition. The Quran has a complex structure, and themes and Surah are often paired. For example, Surahs 113 and 114 are thematically paired. Both are prayers to God seeking refuge with God. This connects with Al-Fatiha which also ends with asking God to help against falling away from the right path. Thus, the Quranic surahs form a circle with the end and the beginning thematically connecting together.

                    The Quran is for all humanity. Al fatiha begins with an introduction to the concept of God---Cherisher, Sustainer, most Gracious, most Merciful and Master of Judgement day.

                    Surah 2 straight away answers the prayers of "the opening"--- "this is the book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt...." here, the Quran (Guidance) is introduced to humanity.

                    Guidance about ethics and morals must include etiquette---and proper introductions are part of good etiquette.

                    Note:---According to Muslim tradition---the Surah and verses are placed as God/Prophet intended.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Exactly...this story in the koran needs to be compared with facts of history and the narrative account found in the Torah and the Old Testament which preceded the koran's version by over a thousand years.


                      Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                      Just post all the verses from the Qur'an related to the Golden Calf.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        Placement of Fatiha and other Surahs.
                        ---The Fatiha is placed where it is because it is prayer for guidance. The rest of the Quran is an answer to this prayer. Another reason is its structural composition. The Quran has a complex structure, and themes and Surah are often paired. For example, Surahs 113 and 114 are thematically paired. Both are prayers to God seeking refuge with God. This connects with Al-Fatiha which also ends with asking God to help against falling away from the right path. Thus, the Quranic surahs form a circle with the end and the beginning thematically connecting together.

                        The Quran is for all humanity. Al fatiha begins with an introduction to the concept of God---Cherisher, Sustainer, most Gracious, most Merciful and Master of Judgement day.

                        Surah 2 straight away answers the prayers of "the opening"--- "this is the book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt...." here, the Quran (Guidance) is introduced to humanity.

                        Guidance about ethics and morals must include etiquette---and proper introductions are part of good etiquette.

                        Note:---According to Muslim tradition---the Surah and verses are placed as God/Prophet intended.
                        Your last three posts seem to be intended as "around the corner" replies to my post questioning you re Fatiha. I address you directly by your handle, sir. I would appreciate the same courtesy in return.

                        Thank you

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                          Exactly...this story in the koran needs to be compared with facts of history and the narrative account found in the Torah and the Old Testament which preceded the koran's version by over a thousand years.
                          It is difficult to put the verses related to the Golden Calf in chronological order because they are not in chronological order. I'm waiting to see what siam will come up with, but since the Qur'an says it confirms past revelations, the Qur'an cannot deviate from the Biblical account.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                            It is difficult to put the verses related to the Golden Calf in chronological order because they are not in chronological order.
                            As evidenced by the Fatiha ... the very first Surah! And that assumes the Fatiha was a "Surah" to start with!!!

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by siam View Post
                              The Opening

                              In the name of God the most merciful, the most compassionate
                              Praise be to God
                              Lord sustainer of the worlds
                              the compassionate and the caring
                              master of the day of reckoning
                              to you we turn to worship
                              and to you we tun in time of need
                              guide us along the straight road
                              the road of those to whom you are giving
                              not those with anger upon them
                              not those who have lost the way

                              This translation somewhat attempts to capture some of the poetic rhythm of the Arabic. It is not a Yusuf ali translation.
                              Would you care to tell us how many times this Surah is repeated daily in the prayers of a devout Muslim??

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Surah 1. The Opening
                                1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
                                2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
                                3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
                                4. Master of the Day of Judgment.
                                5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
                                6. Show us the straight way,
                                7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
                                Some things to note:---

                                A) Some things can get lost in translation---one of them is the saj (rhythm). This can be heard in the video link. It is important to understand that the Quran is not primarily a written text---but an auditory experience.

                                Here in the East, "sacred sounds"/vibrations are thought to have healing/restorative aspects---such as chants of OM in yogic practice, the chanting/reciting of the sutras in Buddhism...etc. Some say that the ancient "ragas" of India show benefits of growth/abundance when played to plants.......
                                here is one way vibrationbs can effect water....


                                In the case of the Quran, the saj (rhythm) aids in memorization and there are many Muslims who have memorized the Quran from cover to cover.

                                B) There are "grammatical shifts" called Iltifaat.
                                "ILTIFAAT literally means ‘turning ones face to’. In the Quran it is a linguistic feature that is used over and over again. ILTIFAAT refers to the change of speech from one person to another. When speech changes from either 1st person to 2nd or 3rd person."
                                https://contemplatequran.wordpress.c...3/27/iltifaat/

                                In "the opening" there is a change from the "majesty" of God in the first part, to a personalized form in the 2nd part. (in Arabic). God is not only the God of all humanity, but also of the individual reader/listener of the Quran. It is both a Universal message and a personal/Individual message.

                                C) "Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;"---this verse from al fatiha has the arabic word "Alameen" (plural of alam) which can mean humanity or Universes. I prefer the translation of universe/worlds because the Quranic concept of "God" is not limited to/does not privilege humanity alone---but is the sustainer of all life and non-life---all creation that has intelligence and free-will (not just humans) as well as those that do not.
                                The Quranic concept of God is not necessarily human-centric.

                                Comment

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