Announcement

Collapse

Islam Guidelines

Theists only.

This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to Islam. This forum is generally for theists only, and is not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theist may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.



Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

A Superbly Flawed Quran..

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    It is very clear to all now, siam, that muslims like you obviously do not believe in Islam because of the facts, but despite of the "facts" not being facts and are actually baseless concepts, ideas and presuppositions, that really, are ahistorical and cannot be proven historically.

    Neither the Christians, Jews or the Bible conjured up the teaching of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago. Rather it is due to the actual death of Jesus by crucifixion that occurred 2,000 years ago as an incontrovertible historical fact that has been verified by historians, archaeological research and scholars, that became the basis for the mission of Christ as articulated by Himself in the Gospel.

    That theological premise was based on the actual life, teachings and verifiable events of Jesus Christ, & not the other way around. No reputable scholar today ever denies that Jesus Christ or Yeshua Hamaschiah in the Hebrew language, was the one crucified outside Jerusalem under the Roman leader Pontius Pilate at the instigation of Jewish religious leaders 2,000 years ago!

    The truth of the crucifixion of Jesus is because it actually happened as an event of history. Not vice versa. For islam and the Koran to deny and ignore that event, only serves to show its interest in fictional myths and baseless fantasies to prop up its polemics, presuppositions and religious teachings which I will add, it is reluctant and unable to verify with objective facts. You dismiss any further enquiry with the Arabic magic formula "walahuallam" or "God knows best"!

    I asked you previously twice, about the koran's story about Dhulqarnyn building an iron or brass wall in the mountains to prevent Gog and Magog passing through but you never answered the question or even addressed it.

    Likewise I asked about the Koran's claims about the production of sperm in the human body - which many readers are doubtful about, again you ignored the question. If the Koran is as you claim, not a book of science or history etc, then why does it talk about sperm production, Dhulqarnyn and the place of the "setting sun" as if it was an authority?

    Many people actually find those polemics and statements of the Koran very amusing and laughable.













    Originally posted by siam View Post




    Cultural bias is an actual phenomenon and for a long time there was a presumption among Western Academia that their methods of knowledge production were "neutral" and their presumptions "universal". But bias effects all human beings---we do not need to "get rid" of bias---because this is an inherent trait---rather, we have to be aware and transparent of our biases.

    Biases can create diversity of perspectives and when we acknowledge each others biases, yet co-operate in research and knowledge production, then we contribute to a more wholistic/transparent understanding and knowledge production.
    however, unacknowledged biases can lead to shoddy research and incorrect presumptions---which in turn leads to misinformation. Such contributions damage, not enhance, our understanding and knowledge.

    Your perspective is one way to look at Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). Another way is (as the Quran explains) he was sent to peoples who had not received the message of One God before. He brought many peoples to monotheism that previously had not understood this concept. Christianity is just too complicated to understand. This can turn away some people such as myself. Compared to the Bible, the Quran is a much thinner book---its theology begins and ends with---(Tawheed) There is One God, and no other God besides it. (Shema = the LORD our God, the LORD is one---Judaism). Apart from the sections about the existence of the resurrection/judgement/heaven and hell...the Quran mostly consists of ethico-moral principles on a variety of subjects.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
      1) It is very clear to all now, siam, that muslims like you obviously do not believe in Islam because of the facts, but despite of the "facts" not being facts and are actually baseless concepts, ideas and presuppositions, that really, are ahistorical and cannot be proven historically.
      Neither the Christians, Jews or the Bible conjured up the teaching of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago. Rather it is due to the actual death of Jesus by crucifixion that occurred 2,000 years ago as an incontrovertible historical fact that has been verified by historians, archaeological research and scholars, that became the basis for the mission of Christ as articulated by Himself in the Gospel.
      That theological premise was based on the actual life, teachings and verifiable events of Jesus Christ, & not the other way around. No reputable scholar today ever denies that Jesus Christ or Yeshua Hamaschiah in the Hebrew language, was the one crucified outside Jerusalem under the Roman leader Pontius Pilate at the instigation of Jewish religious leaders 2,000 years ago!
      The truth of the crucifixion of Jesus is because it actually happened as an event of history. Not vice versa. For islam and the Koran to deny and ignore that event, only serves to show its interest in fictional myths and baseless fantasies to prop up its polemics, presuppositions and religious teachings which I will add, it is reluctant and unable to verify with objective facts. You dismiss any further enquiry with the Arabic magic formula "walahuallam" or "God knows best"!

      2) I asked you previously twice, about the koran's story about Dhulqarnyn building an iron or brass wall in the mountains to prevent Gog and Magog passing through but you never answered the question or even addressed it.

      Likewise I asked about the Koran's claims about the production of sperm in the human body - which many readers are doubtful about, again you ignored the question. If the Koran is as you claim, not a book of science or history etc, then why does it talk about sperm production, Dhulqarnyn and the place of the "setting sun" as if it was an authority?

      Many people actually find those polemics and statements of the Koran very amusing and laughable.
      1) Crucifixion---If I were to concede that a crucifixion occurred and it appeared that Jesus son of Mary was crucified---it still would not make any difference as this event holds no meaning within Islamic theology.
      Yes---Christians have their own interpretation of the teachings of Jesus, son of Mary---but they are far too complicated for me to understand---that is why I am not a Christian and never will be.
      If you insist that crucifixion is a fact---then fine...that is YOUR belief, and a necessary one for your theology to work. It is not a necessary belief for Jews or Muslims for their theology to work. We do not require a crucifixion.
      It was also not a necessary belief of non-mainstream Christians that predate Islam. Some of whom also believed that it was not Jesus, son of Mary who was crucified.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islami...Jesus%27_death

      2) Dul Qurnayn
      Dhul-Qarnayn exemplifies other good leadership qualities in his dealings with a nation being terrorized by the monsters Gog and Magog (N.B.: these monsters are also referenced in the biblical books of Ezekiel and Revelation). First, when the people offer Dhul-Qarnayn tribute in exchange for helping them, he responds that God’s rewards are better than earthly ones. He exhibits self-restraint and does not succumb to greed. Since God has already blessed him with a powerful kingdom, Dhul-Qarnayn considers the tribute unnecessary and decides to help this nation solely due to his sense of justice. However, Dhul-Qarnayn motivates the people to help themselves rather than allowing them to accept a handout. While he supplies the technical expertise necessary to forge a barrier preventing the entry of Gog and Magog, he instructs the people to bring their own raw materials and aid in the construction. In this way, Dhul-Qarnayn models the importance of collective action in tackling nationwide problems. In the modern world, it is clear that governments are not the solution to all societal ills; instead, people from all walks of life must work together to resolve these issues. Politicians may be necessary to supply the required leadership or expertise, but in many cases, the will of a nation’s people will dictate an initiative’s success or failure.
      https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dhul-...ader_b_3299625

      The Quran tries to lay out ethico-moral principles and stories are a tool it uses to demonstrate such principles. In western (socio-politial) philosophy, the individual is the unit of measure (rights/responsibilities)....but in Islamic ethico-moral paradigm, rights and responsibilities are applicable to both the individual and the collective. The individual makes the existence of the collective possible but the collective makes the survival of the individual possible. That is why rights and responsibilities are allocated to both spheres.

      ---Interactive Quran.
      The revelation of the Quran was mostly a public event. As revelation occurred, people listened to it in real-time. This led to discussions and questions. The Quran answers some of these questions and gives guidance to some of the discussions. But because the questions and discussions are not repeated in the Quran (except on some occasions)...it becomes part of the "narrative". The purpose of the Quran is to give guidance to humanity and its primary message is to persuade towards One God. The Concept of One God underlies its ethico-moral philosophy and principles. That is why it is essential to properly understand this paradigm (One God).

      Comment


      • #48
        Yes, and I understand your use of the term "complicated" to mean "doesn't make sense" or "unintelligible".

        Your insinuations against the Gospel and Christ's teachings are clearly presuppositional and prejudicial and preclude factual reasons.

        In fact, the Koran is so uncomplicated, that it claims Allah directed Dhulqarnyn or Zulqarnyn to build a wall of iron in some mountains to stop Gog and Magog passing through, some muslims even claim this person was Alexander the Great. Only thing is Alexander was never known to be a Muslim and worse still, was never devout and never built a wall on any mountain. Find this koranic "wall" for us, siam.

        The exposure and refutation of this joke of a legend in your Koran is found here:

        https://www.answering-islam.org/Auth...wton/gate.html

        Siam says the Koran is not a science or history book, but sura 86/5-7 says that the production of human sperm and semen is "proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs..".

        How uncomplicated is that? Science and biological facts debunk the Koranic claim in sura 86, and shows that the right and proper place for sperm production is in the male testicles and not in the kidney region as the verse claims! The rebuttal to this senseless Koran is found here:

        https://www.answering-islam.org/Qura...production.htm

        Clouds and Thunder. Sura 13/13 teaches muslims that thunder is an angel (!) that 'drives the clouds". And the orthodox tafsirs and muslim commentaries actually confirm & support this uncomplicated nonsense!

        No physicist or meteorologist would support the claim that thunder is driving the clouds. It is the wind that does so, and wind is caused by temperature and pressure differences (even Wikipedia clarifies this). Thunder can neither make a cloud move in any significant way nor can it stop one.

        Check out the Quran's 'thunderous facts' here: https://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/thunder.htm

        Yes, it is so easy to believe in the Koran and islam, because it has no real facts to bother about. Blind faith is a very simple and uncomplicated thing..! Very useful when inventing a new religion like Islam.

        But unfortunately, it is also ridiculously comical and nonsensical. And that's among the reasons why so many Muslims are leaving and abandoning islam in record numbers today. Despite the harsh apostasy and blasphemy punishments that islamic sharia metes out on apostates-even the capital punishment of death, many Muslims have called the many bluffs of the Quran and rejected them.

        https://exmuslims.org/why-we-fight/?...SAAEgKJU_D_BwE

        https://www.ex-muslim.org.uk

        https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...44661.html?amp

        The "uncomplicated" beliefs and teachings of your Koran made them abandon Islam in unprecedented numbers today, siam.



        Originally posted by siam View Post
        1) Crucifixion---If I were to concede that a crucifixion occurred and it appeared that Jesus son of Mary was crucified---it still would not make any difference as this event holds no meaning within Islamic theology.
        Yes---Christians have their own interpretation of the teachings of Jesus, son of Mary---but they are far too complicated for me to understand---that is why I am not a Christian and never will be.
        If you insist that crucifixion is a fact---then fine...that is YOUR belief, and a necessary one for your theology to work. It is not a necessary belief for Jews or Muslims for their theology to work. We do not require a crucifixion.
        It was also not a necessary belief of non-mainstream Christians that predate Islam. Some of whom also believed that it was not Jesus, son of Mary who was crucified.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islami...Jesus%27_death

        2) Dul Qurnayn
        Dhul-Qarnayn exemplifies other good leadership qualities in his dealings with a nation being terrorized by the monsters Gog and Magog (N.B.: these monsters are also referenced in the biblical books of Ezekiel and Revelation). First, when the people offer Dhul-Qarnayn tribute in exchange for helping them, he responds that God’s rewards are better than earthly ones. He exhibits self-restraint and does not succumb to greed. Since God has already blessed him with a powerful kingdom, Dhul-Qarnayn considers the tribute unnecessary and decides to help this nation solely due to his sense of justice. However, Dhul-Qarnayn motivates the people to help themselves rather than allowing them to accept a handout. While he supplies the technical expertise necessary to forge a barrier preventing the entry of Gog and Magog, he instructs the people to bring their own raw materials and aid in the construction. In this way, Dhul-Qarnayn models the importance of collective action in tackling nationwide problems. In the modern world, it is clear that governments are not the solution to all societal ills; instead, people from all walks of life must work together to resolve these issues. Politicians may be necessary to supply the required leadership or expertise, but in many cases, the will of a nation’s people will dictate an initiative’s success or failure.
        https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dhul-...ader_b_3299625

        The Quran tries to lay out ethico-moral principles and stories are a tool it uses to demonstrate such principles. In western (socio-politial) philosophy, the individual is the unit of measure (rights/responsibilities)....but in Islamic ethico-moral paradigm, rights and responsibilities are applicable to both the individual and the collective. The individual makes the existence of the collective possible but the collective makes the survival of the individual possible. That is why rights and responsibilities are allocated to both spheres.

        ---Interactive Quran.
        The revelation of the Quran was mostly a public event. As revelation occurred, people listened to it in real-time. This led to discussions and questions. The Quran answers some of these questions and gives guidance to some of the discussions. But because the questions and discussions are not repeated in the Quran (except on some occasions)...it becomes part of the "narrative". The purpose of the Quran is to give guidance to humanity and its primary message is to persuade towards One God. The Concept of One God underlies its ethico-moral philosophy and principles. That is why it is essential to properly understand this paradigm (One God).

        Comment


        • #49
          Your rejection of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ or Isa al-Masih does not by a long shot make it into a non-fact either. Just another unproven, wild idea you cling to.

          There are more than ample objective documentary and early manuscript evidence for the New Testament, that the majority of historians and reputable scholars accept on the strength of verifiable investigation that Jesus, Yeshua or Isa himself spoke of his death by execution over 2,000 years ago in Roman occupied Israel, culminating in the actual crucifixion of Christ as described in the NT and other documented eye-witness accounts.

          Whatever the Koran claims to the contrary over 700 years later, does not really matter at all, because it has no eye-witness testimony and no factual bearing on the event at the material time. Hence, the existential irrelevance of the Koran and it's claims and comments on historical events described in the Bible and other more ancient manuscripts.

          Such Koranic claims are just the reactionary polemics of Muhammad and the muslims, arising from their unfortunate misrepresentation and misinterpretations of orthodox Christianity and the absence of an Arabic translation of the Bible in muhamad's day. Other factors are the dubious islamic presuppositions and constructs like "ma'asum" (impeccability of prophets) and Muhamad as the so-called 'seal of the prophets'.

          Also the claim that the so-called "revelations sent to muhamed" were public events is doubtful. Nobody ever saw Gabriel (Jibril "the angel") giving or reciting anything to Muhamed. The hadith/sira only say that other people like his wife/wives or companions would hear him snort like a camel, snoring or lose consciousness & go to sleep while some revelations "came to him". Only Muhamed could see or hear it but no one else could. Very similar to demonic possession really.

          The "non-mainstream Christians" you cited from Wikipedia are in reality heresies and heretics who never represented the proclamation and kerygma found in the canonical New Testament and the long established orthodoxy of Christian doctrines. They're really non-Christian. Your "knowledge" of orthodox Christian tenets is really abysmal and pathetic.

          Manicheanism was never Christian but an early heresy based on Gnostic, heterodox dualism that tried to subvert the church but failed. Due to its dubious incompatibility and obvious divergence from early apostolic orthodoxy already established in the Canonical scriptures. It was never Christian by its own admission. So you just cited a red herring.

          This is not dissimilar to the Mutazilite Muslim teachings of the 8-9 centuries who denied the Koran's eternal uncreatedness, was eventually condemned by orthodox Sunnis like Ahmad Ibn Hanbal who was punished and imprisoned by them for his opposition to their "heresy". Would you consider Mutazilism or Ahmadiya Islam representative of islam?



          Originally posted by siam View Post
          1) Crucifixion---If I were to concede that a crucifixion occurred and it appeared that Jesus son of Mary was crucified---it still would not make any difference as this event holds no meaning within Islamic theology.
          Yes---Christians have their own interpretation of the teachings of Jesus, son of Mary---but they are far too complicated for me to understand---that is why I am not a Christian and never will be.
          If you insist that crucifixion is a fact---then fine...that is YOUR belief, and a necessary one for your theology to work. It is not a necessary belief for Jews or Muslims for their theology to work. We do not require a crucifixion.
          It was also not a necessary belief of non-mainstream Christians that predate Islam. Some of whom also believed that it was not Jesus, son of Mary who was crucified.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islami...Jesus%27_death

          2) Dul Qurnayn
          Dhul-Qarnayn exemplifies other good leadership qualities in his dealings with a nation being terrorized by the monsters Gog and Magog (N.B.: these monsters are also referenced in the biblical books of Ezekiel and Revelation). First, when the people offer Dhul-Qarnayn tribute in exchange for helping them, he responds that God’s rewards are better than earthly ones. He exhibits self-restraint and does not succumb to greed. Since God has already blessed him with a powerful kingdom, Dhul-Qarnayn considers the tribute unnecessary and decides to help this nation solely due to his sense of justice. However, Dhul-Qarnayn motivates the people to help themselves rather than allowing them to accept a handout. While he supplies the technical expertise necessary to forge a barrier preventing the entry of Gog and Magog, he instructs the people to bring their own raw materials and aid in the construction. In this way, Dhul-Qarnayn models the importance of collective action in tackling nationwide problems. In the modern world, it is clear that governments are not the solution to all societal ills; instead, people from all walks of life must work together to resolve these issues. Politicians may be necessary to supply the required leadership or expertise, but in many cases, the will of a nation’s people will dictate an initiative’s success or failure.
          https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dhul-...ader_b_3299625

          The Quran tries to lay out ethico-moral principles and stories are a tool it uses to demonstrate such principles. In western (socio-politial) philosophy, the individual is the unit of measure (rights/responsibilities)....but in Islamic ethico-moral paradigm, rights and responsibilities are applicable to both the individual and the collective. The individual makes the existence of the collective possible but the collective makes the survival of the individual possible. That is why rights and responsibilities are allocated to both spheres.

          ---Interactive Quran.
          The revelation of the Quran was mostly a public event. As revelation occurred, people listened to it in real-time. This led to discussions and questions. The Quran answers some of these questions and gives guidance to some of the discussions. But because the questions and discussions are not repeated in the Quran (except on some occasions)...it becomes part of the "narrative". The purpose of the Quran is to give guidance to humanity and its primary message is to persuade towards One God. The Concept of One God underlies its ethico-moral philosophy and principles. That is why it is essential to properly understand this paradigm (One God).

          Comment


          • #50
            "Wild idea"---An Atheist might claim that those who believe in God are "clinging" to an unproven "wild idea" too. I believe in God, I believe the Quran is from God, I believe God would know who was or was not crucified therefore, if the Quran says the Jews did not kill Jesus, son of Mary---then I have no problems with that.
            In order to make sense of our world---we all need some starting presumptions....for example, we need to "believe" that the images/colors projected onto our brain from our eyes are what we see them to be. Optical illusions play with our eyes/brains. So...what is "real" and what is not?

            Comment


            • #51
              Quran and "mainstream" Christianity---As explained already, The main purpose of the Quran is to persuade peoples towards the concept of One God. It may dent your ego, but....the main purpose of the Quran IS NOT about addressing the concerns of "mainstream" Christianity.

              Dhul Qurnayn---as explained already, the legends of King Arthur may be based on an actual character---but they are stories. The story of Dul Qurnayn may or may not be based on an actual character---that is speculation as the Quran does not specify or name. Its a story. It may take elements---partially or wholly, from other stories/legends/myths. For example, the Bible re-uses the story of Gilgamesh for Prophet Noah.

              Science and Quran---The Quran is not a text for scientists by scientists. Among its audience are children/young adults. It explains/discusses/guides/imparts knowledge so that a "layperson" can understand. (layperson = a person without professional or specialized knowledge in a particular subject.)
              Nevertheless, the Quran encourages the pursuit of knowledge and as a result the Islamic period saw a flourishing of the sciences and of major contributions to the development of the sciences.

              Comment


              • #52
                Yes, "Clinging to wild ideas" is actually perfectly appropriate to describe followers of islam, like yourself Siam.

                By basing your beliefs on presumptions and presuppositions that cannot stand the tests of scrutiny and analytical and critical inquiry and investigations-like what is found in the Quran, is sufficient proof.

                If the Koran wishes to avoid such objective investigations and checks then why does it dabble in fictional and unintelligible claims in the fields of science, history, geography etc??

                Examples already given, are like Sperm production in the kidney region of the human body, the place of the setting sun in a muddy pool of water!, a mythological wall in the mountains (possibly caucus mountains) made by a fairy tale individual, thunder in the skies driving the clouds around (the thunder are angels of God) etc...

                All of which are wild fantasies of muhammad and the writers of the Koran but are all factually wildly wrong.

                Your trying to allegorize some of the above quranic fairy tales is nothing but a cop-out and trying to sneak out through an invalid escape hatch and discredits the Koran perfectly.

                When it mentions people's names, places, parts of the body, geography, meteorology, events, phenomena and even mathematics, it invites and exposes itself to investigation for veracity, validation and factual verification.

                Why else would muslim propogandists and missionaries use those same things mentioned above to promote islam and it's "beautiful universal accuracy"? Like Harun Yahya et al.

                But when they are all disproved and debunked factually, you and your kind revert to "analogical parallelism" and shallow allegorizing, moralizing and abstract philosophising...what a hypocritical sham, siam.




                Originally posted by siam View Post
                "Wild idea"---An Atheist might claim that those who believe in God are "clinging" to an unproven "wild idea" too. I believe in God, I believe the Quran is from God, I believe God would know who was or was not crucified therefore, if the Quran says the Jews did not kill Jesus, son of Mary---then I have no problems with that.
                In order to make sense of our world---we all need some starting presumptions....for example, we need to "believe" that the images/colors projected onto our brain from our eyes are what we see them to be. Optical illusions play with our eyes/brains. So...what is "real" and what is not?

                Comment


                • #53
                  You also claim that Muhammad's revelations were public knowledge and could be seen or heard by third parties around him at the time.

                  But the orthodox islamic sources tell us otherwise.

                  We learn from Islamic tradition that on several occasions when Muhammad saw the spirit, he would be so frightened he would run home to his wife and ask her to cover him with clothes: "I was called again and raised my head, and there on the Throne in the open atmosphere he, i.e. Gabriel (peace be upon him) was sitting. I began to tremble on account of fear. I came to Khadija and said: Wrap me up. They wrapped me up and threw water on me..." (Sahih Muslim book 1 ch.74 no.307 p.100. Narrated by Jabir)

                  At other times, Muhammad experienced some strange physical symptoms. From the Hadith Mishkat, we learn that, sometimes he would shiver and swoon, roar and snort like a she-camel and white foamy saliva would spill out from his mouth (Hadith Mishkat iv p.359).

                  Sometimes when he "received revelation(s) there was the sound like the buzzing of bees near his face" (source: Umar Ibnu'l Khattab), while at other times, he felt a tremendous, terrible headache.

                  Muhammad once said: "At times it comes to me like the ringing of a bell and that is most severe for me... and at time an Angel in the form of a human being comes to me... (Sahih Muslim vol.4 book 28 no.5765-5767 p.1248)

                  It is unclear why Mohammed later said, "...The bell is the musical instrument of Satan." Sahih Muslim vol.3 book 22 no.5279, also Abu Dawud vol.2 no.2548 -2550

                  According Ahmad b. Hanbal, "He became distressed, foaming at the mouth and closing his eyes. At times he snorted like a young camel (Ahmad b. Hanbal I, 34, 464, vi.163). This gave rise to the allegation in certain quarters Muhammad was also an epileptic.

                  Prophet Muhammad, according to 'Amr Ibn Sharhabil, HIMSELF mentioned to his wife, Khadija, that he feared he was possessed by DEMONS and jinns and wondered whether others consider him possessed [i.e. evil spirits] (source: pfan. Note 1910:345).

                  These statements about the physical symptoms exhibited by Muhammad when he saw the spirit were NOT MADE by strangers, non Muslims or people who did not know him. These statements were made actually by Aisha, Muhammad's favourite wife, relatives, the sahabah and his close followers who strongly believed that he was the seal of the prophets. All these people happened to be very committed Muslims who knew the alleged prophet well!

                  Yet when the same angel Gabriel visited Daniel, Zachariah, Mary and other Jewish prophets in the OT, none of them had convulsions, with foam coming from their mouths. Neither did they hear the sounds of bells ringing nor the buzzing of bees near their faces. They did not roar like a camel or swoon, etc.

                  Over time Muhammad started having some doubts about the revelations he received from the spirit. Allah (God) directed Muhammad to check the truth from the Bible: If thou wert in doubt as to what we have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the book from before thee (Sura Yunus 10:94).

                  The 'book' mentioned in this verse is the Holy Bible obviously. So Muslims are commanded by Allah to study the Bible humbly and with open hearts and minds!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Ego, Siam? Frankly, ego has nothing to do with it. Surah 18/4 specifically states that one of Muhamed's mission was to "warn those who say that 'God has begotten a Son'." Several surahs denounce any view of Christ that would elevate him beyond the status of a human prophet.

                    In fact, the Quran targets Christians many times. Here's an example of a Quranic verse that specifically attacks and vilifies Christians and condemns them, from surah 9:

                    "The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the UNBELIEVERS of old used to say. God's CURSE BE ON THEM: how they are DELUDED away from the Truth!" - surah 9/30.

                    Indeed, some passages in the Quran seem to deliberately contradict the Biblical proclamation about Jesus Christ. WHO ELSE in the mileau of Muhamed then, are those who staunchly believe in the Son of God like the Christians, some Arab pagans and some Jewish OT verses?

                    Even in surah Maryam it says, Those who say: The Lord of Mercy has BEGOTTEN A SON, preach a MONSTROUS FALSEHOOD, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust that they should ascribe a son to the Merciful when it does not become Him to beget one! (19:8891).

                    This surah is directly about virgin Mary and the birth of Jesus Christ according to Koranic authority. And verse 91 above harshly attacks the Christian doctrine of the Son of God specifically! To claim otherwise is only denial.

                    Then, Surah al-imran 3/59-61 narrates the CONFRONTATION of Muhamed against the CHRISTIANS of Najran in Arabia who visited him in madinah for a dialogue. Here, MUHAMED LECTURES the CHRISTIAN delegation about Jesus NOT being God's Son.

                    Seeing that the Christians are not convinced of his explanation and polemics, he resorted to some very nasty action, to challenge the Najran Christian delegation to a mutual cursing ritual ("mubahalah"). And invoke God's punishment and curses upon the "lying party", in this case regarding Jesus Christ's Sonship to God. The Christian concept of the Son of God was a "very bad lie" and a "monstrous falsehood" according to Muhamad.

                    Obviously, the Christians and their visiting bishop refused to participate in such nasty, evil business like Muhamed's cursing ritual. Not because they were afraid of Muhamed & his challenge. But because they honored the Lord Jesus commands much more - to never invoke & pray for curses upon their rivals, these Arab Christians were well aware of Jesus is.Isa's command from the Gospel - "bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you" ( Luke 6:28).

                    They would rather obey Jesus Christ, the unique Son of God's commands, than to comply with the hateful cursing ritual insisted by Muhamed in sura 3/59-61.

                    So the Koran and Muhamad himself do specifically vilify and attack Christianity's foundational truth about the Son of God. However, such vehement attacks on the foundations of the Gospel do not render this key tenet untrue in the least bit.




                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    Quran and "mainstream" Christianity---As explained already, The main purpose of the Quran is to persuade peoples towards the concept of One God. It may dent your ego, but....the main purpose of the Quran IS NOT about addressing the concerns of "mainstream" Christianity.

                    Dhul Qurnayn---as explained already, the legends of King Arthur may be based on an actual character---but they are stories. The story of Dul Qurnayn may or may not be based on an actual character---that is speculation as the Quran does not specify or name. Its a story. It may take elements---partially or wholly, from other stories/legends/myths. For example, the Bible re-uses the story of Gilgamesh for Prophet Noah.

                    Science and Quran---The Quran is not a text for scientists by scientists. Among its audience are children/young adults. It explains/discusses/guides/imparts knowledge so that a "layperson" can understand. (layperson = a person without professional or specialized knowledge in a particular subject.)
                    Nevertheless, the Quran encourages the pursuit of knowledge and as a result the Islamic period saw a flourishing of the sciences and of major contributions to the development of the sciences.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      With the orthodox and original sources of islam giving and exposing rather damning accounts of how Islam's prophet got his "revelations", it's no wonder that many muslims and islamic missionaries would rather stay away from explaining their prophet's mode of revelation.

                      For instance, if siam could only address the dubious and forceful ways such revelations came to muhamed and how it scared "the hell" out of him, siam could realize the Sunni and orthodox hadith and sources are telling the truth of muhamed's fits and probable demonic influences when he was "receiving the revelations"!

                      None of the Old Testament prophets ever received revelations that came in the way described by the hadith. These are muslims themselves telling the story, not "antagonists against islam." Time for siam and friends to wake up from a deep stuporific slumber about the founder of their religion.



                      Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                      You also claim that Muhammad's revelations were public knowledge and could be seen or heard by third parties around him at the time.

                      But the orthodox islamic sources tell us otherwise.

                      We learn from Islamic tradition that on several occasions when Muhammad saw the spirit, he would be so frightened he would run home to his wife and ask her to cover him with clothes: "I was called again and raised my head, and there on the Throne in the open atmosphere he, i.e. Gabriel (peace be upon him) was sitting. I began to tremble on account of fear. I came to Khadija and said: Wrap me up. They wrapped me up and threw water on me..." (Sahih Muslim book 1 ch.74 no.307 p.100. Narrated by Jabir)

                      At other times, Muhammad experienced some strange physical symptoms. From the Hadith Mishkat, we learn that, sometimes he would shiver and swoon, roar and snort like a she-camel and white foamy saliva would spill out from his mouth (Hadith Mishkat iv p.359).

                      Sometimes when he "received revelation(s) there was the sound like the buzzing of bees near his face" (source: Umar Ibnu'l Khattab), while at other times, he felt a tremendous, terrible headache.

                      Muhammad once said: "At times it comes to me like the ringing of a bell and that is most severe for me... and at time an Angel in the form of a human being comes to me... (Sahih Muslim vol.4 book 28 no.5765-5767 p.1248)

                      It is unclear why Mohammed later said, "...The bell is the musical instrument of Satan." Sahih Muslim vol.3 book 22 no.5279, also Abu Dawud vol.2 no.2548 -2550

                      According Ahmad b. Hanbal, "He became distressed, foaming at the mouth and closing his eyes. At times he snorted like a young camel (Ahmad b. Hanbal I, 34, 464, vi.163). This gave rise to the allegation in certain quarters Muhammad was also an epileptic.

                      Prophet Muhammad, according to 'Amr Ibn Sharhabil, HIMSELF mentioned to his wife, Khadija, that he feared he was possessed by DEMONS and jinns and wondered whether others consider him possessed [i.e. evil spirits] (source: pfan. Note 1910:345).

                      These statements about the physical symptoms exhibited by Muhammad when he saw the spirit were NOT MADE by strangers, non Muslims or people who did not know him. These statements were made actually by Aisha, Muhammad's favourite wife, relatives, the sahabah and his close followers who strongly believed that he was the seal of the prophets. All these people happened to be very committed Muslims who knew the alleged prophet well!

                      Yet when the same angel Gabriel visited Daniel, Zachariah, Mary and other Jewish prophets in the OT, none of them had convulsions, with foam coming from their mouths. Neither did they hear the sounds of bells ringing nor the buzzing of bees near their faces. They did not roar like a camel or swoon, etc.

                      Over time Muhammad started having some doubts about the revelations he received from the spirit. Allah (God) directed Muhammad to check the truth from the Bible: If thou wert in doubt as to what we have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the book from before thee (Sura Yunus 10:94).

                      The 'book' mentioned in this verse is the Holy Bible obviously. So Muslims are commanded by Allah to study the Bible humbly and with open hearts and minds!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Aa early as 2000, we've had this study of the Koran published in The Guardian. An honest and thoughtful assessment. There's doubtful basis to believe the authenticity of the early manuscript evidence for the Koran as the scholars have shown..:

                        https://amp.theguardian.com/educatio...on.theguardian

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                          Ego, Siam? Frankly, ego has nothing to do with it. Surah 18/4 specifically states that one of Muhamed's mission was to "warn those who say that 'God has begotten a Son'." Several surahs denounce any view of Christ that would elevate him beyond the status of a human prophet.

                          In fact, the Quran targets Christians many times. Here's an example of a Quranic verse that specifically attacks and vilifies Christians and condemns them, from surah 9:

                          "The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the UNBELIEVERS of old used to say. God's CURSE BE ON THEM: how they are DELUDED away from the Truth!" - surah 9/30.

                          Indeed, some passages in the Quran seem to deliberately contradict the Biblical proclamation about Jesus Christ. WHO ELSE in the mileau of Muhamed then, are those who staunchly believe in the Son of God like the Christians, some Arab pagans and some Jewish OT verses?

                          Even in surah Maryam it says, Those who say: The Lord of Mercy has BEGOTTEN A SON, preach a MONSTROUS FALSEHOOD, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust that they should ascribe a son to the Merciful when it does not become Him to beget one! (19:8891).

                          This surah is directly about virgin Mary and the birth of Jesus Christ according to Koranic authority. And verse 91 above harshly attacks the Christian doctrine of the Son of God specifically! To claim otherwise is only denial.

                          Then, Surah al-imran 3/59-61 narrates the CONFRONTATION of Muhamed against the CHRISTIANS of Najran in Arabia who visited him in madinah for a dialogue. Here, MUHAMED LECTURES the CHRISTIAN delegation about Jesus NOT being God's Son.

                          Seeing that the Christians are not convinced of his explanation and polemics, he resorted to some very nasty action, to challenge the Najran Christian delegation to a mutual cursing ritual ("mubahalah"). And invoke God's punishment and curses upon the "lying party", in this case regarding Jesus Christ's Sonship to God. The Christian concept of the Son of God was a "very bad lie" and a "monstrous falsehood" according to Muhamad.

                          Obviously, the Christians and their visiting bishop refused to participate in such nasty, evil business like Muhamed's cursing ritual. Not because they were afraid of Muhamed & his challenge. But because they honored the Lord Jesus commands much more - to never invoke & pray for curses upon their rivals, these Arab Christians were well aware of Jesus is.Isa's command from the Gospel - "bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you" ( Luke 6:28).

                          They would rather obey Jesus Christ, the unique Son of God's commands, than to comply with the hateful cursing ritual insisted by Muhamed in sura 3/59-61.

                          So the Koran and Muhamad himself do specifically vilify and attack Christianity's foundational truth about the Son of God. However, such vehement attacks on the foundations of the Gospel do not render this key tenet untrue in the least bit.
                          The Qur'an is a mess. It has Muhammad's fingerprints all over it.

                          Didn't the author of the Qur'an know that Jews and Christians call God Father?

                          Jesus never would have call Allah Father.
                          Last edited by Christian3; 05-21-2020, 12:37 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            You mean "Isa", the "Jesus" of the koran, who is really a deformity and a abused caricature of the actual Jesus in the recorded documents 700 years earlier.


                            Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                            The Qur'an is a mess. It has Muhammad's fingerprints all over it.

                            Didn't the author of the Qur'an know that Jews and Christians call God Father?

                            Jesus never would have call Allah Father.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                              You mean "Isa", the "Jesus" of the koran, who is really a deformity and a abused caricature of the actual Jesus in the recorded documents 700 years earlier.
                              Of course "Isa" would never call Allah his father. Muslims think "father" is somehow sexual.

                              A Muslim told me he could say the Lord's Prayer, except for the beginning, "Our Father."

                              And the read Jesus would not have called the Qur'an's Allah Father either. Jesus' Father is YHWH and YHWH is not Allah.

                              The condition of the Qur'an gets worse.

                              https://www.answering-islam.org/Gilc...Jam/chap4.html

                              Clips: It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).

                              This chapter has illustrated quite sufficiently that the Qur'an, as it stands today, is somewhat incomplete. Numerous individual verses and, at times, whole passages, are said to have once formed part of the original text and the attempt to evade the implications by suggesting that all such passages must have been abrogated simply because of the fact of their omission from the standardised text cannot overcome the key problem facing those Muslims who claim that the Qur'an has been preserved absolutely intact to the last dot and letter, nothing added, omitted or varied, indicating a divine oversight of its transmission. The text as it stands today just cannot sincerely be regarded by the Muslims as an exact replica of the "preserved tablet" in heaven from which it was all said to have been delivered to Muhammad. While nothing can be shown to have been added to the text or interpolated into it, much of what was there in the beginning is quite obviously missing from it now and, in comparison with that supposed heavenly original, it cannot be regarded as perfect and complete.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                The Koran and islam in general is very much a "reactive" religion, not a proactive one. It reacts unwarrantedly many times, to the "Son of God" concept in the Gospel.

                                Wrongly assuming that this Son of God is a biological-physical-sexual one, nothing could more perversely wrong!

                                Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                                Of course "Isa" would never call Allah his father. Muslims think "father" is somehow sexual.

                                A Muslim told me he could say the Lord's Prayer, except for the beginning, "Our Father."

                                And the read Jesus would not have called the Qur'an's Allah Father either. Jesus' Father is YHWH and YHWH is not Allah.

                                The condition of the Qur'an gets worse.

                                https://www.answering-islam.org/Gilc...Jam/chap4.html

                                Clips: It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).

                                This chapter has illustrated quite sufficiently that the Qur'an, as it stands today, is somewhat incomplete. Numerous individual verses and, at times, whole passages, are said to have once formed part of the original text and the attempt to evade the implications by suggesting that all such passages must have been abrogated simply because of the fact of their omission from the standardised text cannot overcome the key problem facing those Muslims who claim that the Qur'an has been preserved absolutely intact to the last dot and letter, nothing added, omitted or varied, indicating a divine oversight of its transmission. The text as it stands today just cannot sincerely be regarded by the Muslims as an exact replica of the "preserved tablet" in heaven from which it was all said to have been delivered to Muhammad. While nothing can be shown to have been added to the text or interpolated into it, much of what was there in the beginning is quite obviously missing from it now and, in comparison with that supposed heavenly original, it cannot be regarded as perfect and complete.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Dan Zebiri, 03-30-2019, 05:15 AM
                                131 responses
                                18,632 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Dan Zebiri  
                                Working...
                                X