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A Superbly Flawed Quran..

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  • #16
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    @DZ
    I do not know much about Christian doctrine or history---but Constantine is relevant to "Western" Church history? ---from what little I know---the Nestorian/Syriac Churches were already established in the East and Far East by the 4th Century?---they were translating their bibles into Chinese and such?
    r u familiar with this part of history?
    The Nestorian Church didn't exist until the 5th century, and after the split they were relatively tolerated in the Persian empire because they were at odds with the Roman Emperor. They reached China in maybe the 7th/8th century.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by siam View Post
      thanks---interesting info

      In any case, In the Quranic verse in question---S5,v116---God asks Jesus if he told people "to take me and my mother for two Gods besides God"? and Jesus, son of Mary and Messenger of God replies that he did not say what he had no right to say.
      Can any Christian point to any direct quote or saying of Jesus, son of Mary where he declares himself and his mother to be 2 Gods besides God?
      .....Therefore any misconception any Christian may have had regarding God as One is cleared up here in the Quran.
      God is ONE----I believe this is a statement that Christians cannot disagree with?---am I correct?
      If so, the Quranic statement that there are not 2 more Gods besides God is also correct. Therefore, any Christian believing that there are more than one Gods is incorrect and the Quran is simply stating the obvious.
      The entire misconception is that the writer of the Quran thought there was a question about that which needed to be clarified. The accusation that Christians believed in ditheism or tritheism was never more than a matter of polemics based on a misunderstanding of Trinitarian doctrine. Why is the Quranic author immolating a strawman?
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        The entire misconception is that the writer of the Quran thought there was a question about that which needed to be clarified. The accusation that Christians believed in ditheism or tritheism was never more than a matter of polemics based on a misunderstanding of Trinitarian doctrine. Why is the Quranic author immolating a strawman?
        The people researching the Quran today no longer consider such things as "misunderstanding" ----putting aside the question of the "author" for the moment,---Those researching the Quran in the West are saying the Quran is in dialogue with its audience and that by looking at what it is saying and to whom---a picture of the society/milieu of that time might emerge. (Western) Christians seem to think that the entire Quran is addressed to them---but this is not the case.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          The Nestorian Church didn't exist until the 5th century, and after the split they were relatively tolerated in the Persian empire because they were at odds with the Roman Emperor. They reached China in maybe the 7th/8th century.
          So while the Western Church began to form an Orthodoxy that became more or less established by the 4th C---the Eastern Churches were different?....right? From what little I can understand of Christian history---there were the Coptics, The Tawhedo Eastern Church (Kingdom of Axum), Syriac Church, St Tomas Christians, Nestoreans, Nazareans...etc...etc....?????......which today form the various Eastern orthodoxies...?....is this right?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            The entire misconception is that the writer of the Quran thought there was a question about that which needed to be clarified. The accusation that Christians believed in ditheism or tritheism was never more than a matter of polemics based on a misunderstanding of Trinitarian doctrine. Why is the Quranic author immolating a strawman?
            Perhaps it wasn't deliberate. Maybe the author was just ignorant or ill-informed.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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            • #21
              Originally posted by siam View Post
              The people researching the Quran today no longer consider such things as "misunderstanding" ----putting aside the question of the "author" for the moment,---Those researching the Quran in the West are saying the Quran is in dialogue with its audience and that by looking at what it is saying and to whom---a picture of the society/milieu of that time might emerge. (Western) Christians seem to think that the entire Quran is addressed to them---but this is not the case.
              I agree that the Quran is in dialogue with its initial audience, and reflects Mohammed's understanding when he wrote it. That doesn't make it any more accurate as a reflection of mainstream Jewish or Christian theology. To whom the Quran is addressed has no bearing on its accuracy (or lack thereof) regarding facts.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by siam View Post
                So while the Western Church began to form an Orthodoxy that became more or less established by the 4th C---the Eastern Churches were different?....right? From what little I can understand of Christian history---there were the Coptics, The Tawhedo Eastern Church (Kingdom of Axum), Syriac Church, St Tomas Christians, Nestoreans, Nazareans...etc...etc....?????......which today form the various Eastern orthodoxies...?....is this right?
                You understand little of Christian history, that much is clear. The "Western Church" and the "Eastern Church" was the same church until the 11th century. The Copts, Tawhedos, and some Syraic Christians are all united (the other Syriac Christians are united with either the Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic Church). Nestorians are pretty much gone, thanks to the "religion of peace". The Nazareans were a small splinter sect which has been long gone.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #23
                  Yes, the author of the Koran was badly ill informed from the wrong and heterodox sources of orthodox Christianity. Some scholars and researchers say it was the heretical group of the Collyridians who gave muhamed those wrong ideas and he swallowed these false ideas without thinking properly.

                  These people actually worshipped Mary as a goddess and were found in the Arabian peninsula at muhameds and his followers time.






                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Perhaps it wasn't deliberate. Maybe the author was just ignorant or ill-informed.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    You are trying to show the existence of so-called "many Christianities" in that very early era of the Church. Unfortunately you are so wrong, siam. Your knowledge of actual church history and Christian doctrine from the time of Jesus Christ and the apostolic church is horribly IGNORANT and abysmally pathetic to say the least! And it clearly shows..

                    There was no major or serious theological split whatsoever between "eastern or western" Christianity, thanks to the ecumenical councils that united them as one through the creedal formulas, etc.

                    By your "prophet's" time, the Christian churches were already united in the creedal confessions that traced their lineage and chain of custody through the early church Father's and Christ's Apostles right through to Jesus Himself in the 1st Century.

                    The creeds never confessed, taught or instructed that Mary, the mother of Jesus, to be worshipped by orthodox Christians.

                    Only sura 5/116 claims that - wrongfully! And the cult of Mary worshippers who actually prayed to her as goddess.

                    That verse makes Allah say to Jesus "did you (Jesus) teach your followers to worship" him (Jesus) and His mother (Mary) as two gods beside Allah.

                    Who are being addressed here in Q5/116?

                    Jesus and His followers of course. Not the Jews who were hostile to Jesus, who pushed for his execution on the Cross.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The Nestorian Christians (an eastern church too) were pretty much wiped out by the forceful spread of islam when muslims moved eastwards from the west (arabia).

                      The Nestorians were very evangelical, missionary-minded Christians and pioneered the spread of the Gospel quite far eastwards even into China. In western China today researchers have found archaeological and historical evidence, artefacts and totems, dateable to the 8th and 9th centuries of Christian writings and records and the early spread of Christianity there.



                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      You understand little of Christian history, that much is clear. The "Western Church" and the "Eastern Church" was the same church until the 11th century. The Copts, Tawhedos, and some Syraic Christians are all united (the other Syriac Christians are united with either the Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic Church). Nestorians are pretty much gone, thanks to the "religion of peace". The Nazareans were a small splinter sect which has been long gone.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        I agree that the Quran is in dialogue with its initial audience, and reflects Mohammed's understanding when he wrote it. That doesn't make it any more accurate as a reflection of mainstream Jewish or Christian theology. To whom the Quran is addressed has no bearing on its accuracy (or lack thereof) regarding facts.
                        So why are Christians assuming it is addressing/reflecting this "mainstream Christianity"?
                        In any case, as mentioned previously, "mainstream Christianity" should not have any complaints of the Quran advising people not to worship Mary mother of Jesus, as God---a point they agree with.....
                        Furthermore---the Quran also states that Jesus, son of Mary, is not another God apart from/besides God---that God is only ONE----again, "mainstream Christianity" agrees that God is One and therefore Jesus is not another God---right? to say otherwise would be a heresy...right?

                        The Quran is addressing a variety of belief systems and this is reflected in the diversity of Christian literature it alludes to---from canonical gospels to apocrypha to Christian folk tales (seven sleepers)...etc...

                        My understanding of Christian history is that there were many Christianities, Arianism, for example, was adopted by the Goths and Vandals until it was crushed around 6th/7th century
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism

                        I admit I cannot fathom what may or may not have been different among these various Christian doctrines as I cannot even understand the basic concept of the Trinity....Yet, there are historians interested in researching these Christianities and the Quran can be a source of information for them.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                          The Nestorian Christians (an eastern church too) were pretty much wiped out by the forceful spread of islam when muslims moved eastwards from the west (arabia).

                          The Nestorians were very evangelical, missionary-minded Christians and pioneered the spread of the Gospel quite far eastwards even into China. In western China today researchers have found archaeological and historical evidence, artefacts and totems, dateable to the 8th and 9th centuries of Christian writings and records and the early spread of Christianity there.
                          Other historians also have their opinions---
                          for ex---
                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism
                          Nestorius' teachings brought him into conflict with other prominent church leaders, most notably Cyril of Alexandria, who criticized especially his rejection of the title Theotokos ("Mother of God") for Mary, the mother of Jesus, and issued 12 anathemas against him at a council in Rome in 430. Nestorius and his teachings were eventually condemned as heretical at the Council of Ephesus in 431, and again at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, which led to the Nestorian Schism; churches supporting Nestorian teachings broke with the rest of the Christian Church.

                          Following that, many of Nestorius's supporters relocated to the Sasanian Empire, where they affiliated with the local Christian community, known as the Church of the East. Over the next decades the Church of the East became increasingly Nestorian in doctrine, leading to it becoming known alternatively as the Nestorian Church.

                          Following the schism of 1552, the Church of the East saw secessions, with the Chaldean Catholic Church emerging as the most prominent, which would eventually drop Nestorianism. Yet in opposition to this, two denominations persist in accordance with Nestorianism doctrine still: Assyrian Church of the East (since 1692), and the Ancient Church of the East (since 1968).

                          .....and
                          Nestorian missionaries were firmly established in China during the early part of the Tang dynasty (618–907); the Chinese source known as the Nestorian Stele records a mission under a Persian proselyte named Alopen as introducing Nestorian Christianity to China in 635. Following the Muslim conquest of Persia, completed in 644, the Persian Church became a dhimmi community under the Rashidun Caliphate. The church and its communities abroad grew larger under the Caliphate. By the 10th century it had 15 metropolitan sees within the Caliphate's territories, and another five elsewhere, including in China and India.

                          Some historians think that it was the Portuguese colonizers that wiped out much of these differing Christianities?....

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Actually, NO Christian is making such assumptions that you are talking about (below), siam. Its just you making misplaced presumptions again, about what you assume of the Christians!

                            The church councils from Nicea – 325 AD, Ephesus – 431 AD, etc which all predate Muhamed and the invention of 6th century Islam NEVER endorsed, confessed or taught in any measure, Mary-worship. Giving her ‘titles’ is totally something else, and never amounted to praying to her in worship by the orthodox Christian church.

                            So sura 5/116 is already wrong in its error to assume that Jesus taught or said to His disciples to “worship me (Jesus) and my mother (Mary) as two gods besides God/Allah..”

                            Who are these people that the Koran refers to, other than the followers of Jesus Christ as 5/116 EXPLICITLY addresses? Are they muslims, Jews, Hindus or Zoroastrians??

                            But there isn’t any command or injunction taught by the Bible and canonical Gospels to worship Mary, unlike what 5/116 wrongly and falsely assumes!

                            The Koran does erroneously and grossly misrepresent Christian and Biblical orthodoxy at THIS point.

                            The Holy Trinity is about God “the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit”.


                            Your failure and inability to grasp or understand this truth about God does NOT invalidate the Trinity at all!

                            As to the worship of Jesus Christ the Son of God, I already showed previously – how the Lord Jesus accepted worship from His followers in John 20 v.28. Like, from Thomas who addressed Jesus as “my Lord and my GOD”. If Jesus was not divine and human in Himself, He would have repudiated such worship from Thomas and scolded or rebuked him for blasphemy and breaching monotheism. But Jesus did no such thing.

                            Instead, Jesus willingly accepted, welcomed and endorsed the worship given to Him by Thomas and the other disciples.

                            The divine nature of Jesus the Son of God is inherent in the canonical Gospels. All His closest and earliest companions acknowledged it.
                            There is no need for researchers to learn anything substantially thematic from the Koran about the authentic Jesus Christ. It came 700 hundred years AFTER the FACT of the historical Jesus Christ.

                            The canonical Gospels are far and away much more reliable than the Koran to learn from and discover the real and truly authentic identity and nature of Jesus Christ.

                            As the historian and scholar J.J. Saunders said about the Quran:

                            “Its pattern and form, doubtful and questionable sources, together with the uncertain and questionable dates of their surahs, make the Quran a most UNRELIABLE source of historical facts.”

                            JJ Saunders, A History of Medieval Islam, (London: Routledge, 1972), 18-20.

                            So, in terms of facts of history, many objective and intellectual reputable scholars have already rejected the Koran as a historical or reliable source in any measure.


                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            So why are Christians assuming it is addressing/reflecting this "mainstream Christianity"?
                            In any case, as mentioned previously, "mainstream Christianity" should not have any complaints of the Quran advising people not to worship Mary mother of Jesus, as God---a point they agree with.....
                            Furthermore---the Quran also states that Jesus, son of Mary, is not another God apart from/besides God---that God is only ONE----again, "mainstream Christianity" agrees that God is One and therefore Jesus is not another God---right? to say otherwise would be a heresy...right?

                            The Quran is addressing a variety of belief systems and this is reflected in the diversity of Christian literature it alludes to---from canonical gospels to apocrypha to Christian folk tales (seven sleepers)...etc...

                            My understanding of Christian history is that there were many Christianities, Arianism, for example, was adopted by the Goths and Vandals until it was crushed around 6th/7th century
                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism

                            I admit I cannot fathom what may or may not have been different among these various Christian doctrines as I cannot even understand the basic concept of the Trinity....Yet, there are historians interested in researching these Christianities and the Quran can be a source of information for them.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by siam View Post
                              So why are Christians assuming it is addressing/reflecting this "mainstream Christianity"?
                              In any case, as mentioned previously, "mainstream Christianity" should not have any complaints of the Quran advising people not to worship Mary mother of Jesus, as God---a point they agree with.....
                              Furthermore---the Quran also states that Jesus, son of Mary, is not another God apart from/besides God---that God is only ONE----again, "mainstream Christianity" agrees that God is One and therefore Jesus is not another God---right? to say otherwise would be a heresy...right?
                              More accurately, mainstream Christianity agrees that Jesus is God, but not another God.
                              The Quran is addressing a variety of belief systems and this is reflected in the diversity of Christian literature it alludes to---from canonical gospels to apocrypha to Christian folk tales (seven sleepers)...etc...
                              No, it's not. It's addressing the beliefs of those Christians who Mohammed happened to encounter. Where does the Quran address the seven sleepers?
                              My understanding of Christian history is that there were many Christianities, Arianism, for example, was adopted by the Goths and Vandals until it was crushed around 6th/7th century
                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
                              More accurately, there were many misinterpretations of Christianity, most of them insignificant in size. Arianism was significantly assisted by political powers.
                              I admit I cannot fathom what may or may not have been different among these various Christian doctrines as I cannot even understand the basic concept of the Trinity....Yet, there are historians interested in researching these Christianities and the Quran can be a source of information for them.
                              The Quran is a terrible source for understanding Christianity. It is a decent source for understanding what Christians believed in the remote backwater of the Arabian peninsula, insofar as Mohammed understood them.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                1) More accurately, mainstream Christianity agrees that Jesus is God, but not another God.

                                2) No, it's not. It's addressing the beliefs of those Christians who Mohammed happened to encounter. Where does the Quran address the seven sleepers?

                                3) More accurately, there were many misinterpretations of Christianity, most of them insignificant in size. Arianism was significantly assisted by political powers.

                                4) The Quran is a terrible source for understanding Christianity. It is a decent source for understanding what Christians believed in the remote backwater of the Arabian peninsula, insofar as Mohammed understood them.
                                1) I agree. (The Trinity is addressed in another verse---not the one we are discussing at the moment)

                                2) That may be one way to see things---but keep in mind that the Prophet was a trader and well traveled. This is one of the facts that (western) historians point out when they try to explain why there is such a range of beliefs addressed in the Quran. Both the silk road and the spice route were well established so trading brought goods and ideas from a vast (Eastern) geographical region.

                                The story of the seven sleepers/people of the cave appears in Surah 18 (Al Kahf)
                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Sleepers

                                3) Which ones are a "misinterpretation" of the teachings of Jesus might be subjective---as to size--yes, Christianity was, perhaps, a minority religion in the East/Far East at this time.....?.....

                                4) The purpose of the Quran is not about explaining Christianity---but explaining and persuading towards the concept of ONE God. .....and it does that very well.

                                Comment

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