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Quran & islam's hate speech

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  • Quran & islam's hate speech

    The Qur'anic Attitude towards those who do not believe its message is crass, hateful and bigoted to say the least..

    The Qur'an has a wide range of imagery and insults for those who refuse to believe in Islam. They are likened to cattle (camels, cows, sheep), a goat-herd, dogs, asses, etc. (cf. Surah 25:44, 2:171, 7:175-177, 62:5), but in some passages it is much worse than that:

    According to the Koran, a non-Muslim is less than nothing: "To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who DO NOT BELIEVE and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:55). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:33).

    Mind you, Q8/55 vilifies and attacks non muslims just for NOT BELIEVING in islam or its inventor, muhammad! Not because these people were literally fighting muslims or islam. There are numerous other verses like this one, too!

    And, since the Muslims are realists, they take into account circumstances and make, accordingly, temporary peace or war: "Do not display cowardice, and DO NOT CALL THE INFIDELS TO PEACE WHEN YOU ARE SUPERIOR TO THEM." (Sura 47:35).

    In a word, as the Koran is the word of Allah for all Muslims, it holds for all times and all peoples until the end of the world. It must be applied according to the indications that Allah himself gives to his believers. This logically explains what is today happening in the Sudan, in Algeria, and in numerous Islamic countries. To idealize Islam is the greatest wrong that one can do to the Muslims themselves.

    Many muslims, bahais and their derivatives hide behind exaggerated "hate speech" victimhood to avoid the disclosure to the rabid hate quran expressed against non muslims, Christians abd Jews. This is so shameful and hypocritical.

  • #2
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since youíve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?Ē

    Comment


    • #3
      According to the values cherished by the "West" is that of "freedom" and among them is the concept of Freedom of speech. Some say hate speech must be protected as part of " Freedom of speech". Others have real worries that the dehumanization that is legitimized by irresponsible hate speech leads to genocide.

      https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/11/30...s-muslim-hate/
      "Social scientists agree that attacks on an entire class of people ¬ó whether identified by their race, religion, education, or any other distinguishing characteristic ¬ó do not happen spontaneously. First the mob has to be primed. The targeted group has to be demonized through a campaign of hateful misinformation, always presented as legitimate information by people in positions of trust. Then the signal for violence falls on ready ears.
      It happened this way in Germany, Cambodia, Rwanda, and countless other sites of genocide, ethnic cleansing, and mass persecution. The pamphlets, megaphones, and radio broadcasts came before the pogroms, murders, and forced relocations."

      Here is another opinion/reflection on the balance between criticism and hate speech:- (by Cherian George)
      Hate speech against religious groups is a particularly complex problem, because religious communities define themselves by a set of beliefs and beliefs are fair game for criticism and insult. There is therefore a tension ¬ó some would say a fatal contradiction ¬ó between the need to protect against incitement while allowing beliefs to be pilloried.

      Some of the most fraught debates over offensive speech are due to this tension. When cartoons or videos depict Islam as a murderous religion, governments and internet intermediaries declare that they cannot legitimately restrict such expression, because an attack on a belief system does not technically amount to a call to arms against its believers. Many at the receiving end, however, maintain that such denigration of their religion is part of a broad ideological assault that makes it harder for them to live as equals in their society.

      In any case, a legal right to insult religions does not preclude journalists deciding, on ethical grounds, to refrain from wanton attacks on values and beliefs. Political cartoonist Garry Trudeau suggests media should take people¬ís power into account when making such decisions. Reflecting on the controversy over satirical depictions of the Prophet Mohammed in Europe, Trudeau said in an essay in The Atlantic: ¬ďTraditionally, satire has comforted the afflicted while afflicting the comfortable. Satire punches up against authority of all kinds, the little guy against the powerful ¬Ö Ridiculing the non-privileged is almost never funny ¬ó it¬ís just mean.¬Ē

      While journalists may agree in principle, however, there would still be disagreements over implementation. Muslim immigrants in Europe are a vulnerable minority when viewed at the national level, but they are simultaneously members of a world religion with tremendous power to shape world affairs. Media’s ethical responses will differ depending on which of these two frames apply.

      Extreme nationalism hatred is often overlooked in discussions of hate speech, perhaps because intense and exclusive loyalty to the nation — patriotism — tends to be seen as a virtue in a way that similar sentiments about race or religion are not. Yet, nationalistic hate speech in East Asia, for example, poses a threat to world peace. China’s state-run media, aided by online media, regularly incite hatred against Japan with alarming headlines and half-truths. Right-wing media in Japan reciprocate with China-bashing, although their influence is diluted by Japan’s more open media environment.
      https://ethicaljournalismnetwork.org...ws/hate-speech

      What is your position on hate speech?

      Comment


      • #4
        Unless sensible, factual and convincing answers can be given to my post above, it is crystal clear that hate speech and vilification of non muslims are part and parcel of the quran and islam.

        In verses / ayats like these, among many more :-

        Surah 25:44, 2:171, 7:175-177, 62:5.

        Surah 9:5, 9:29 & 8:55 etc..

        It is inherent and in the DNA of islam & the Koran, that much is clear.

        Comment


        • #5
          Like these -


          The Qur'an has a wide range of imagery and insults for those who refuse to believe in Islam. They are likened to cattle (camels, cows, sheep), a goat-herd, dogs, asses, etc. (cf. Surah 25:44, 2:171, 7:175-177, 62:5).

          Why the need to vilify the unbelievers of islam like this?

          "To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who DO NOT BELIEVE and remain unbelievers" - Sura 8:55..

          "Do not display cowardice, and DO NOT CALL THE INFIDELS TO PEACE WHEN YOU ARE SUPERIOR TO THEM." Sura 47:35..

          Sura 9:5 & 9:29 too!

          Pls just stick to these verses only and explain their venom to us, siam?! No need to go all over the place, like pulling wool over our eyes to make us forget these are hate speech verses because the quran itself commands & declares them.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by siam View Post
            According to the values cherished by the "West" is that of "freedom" and among them is the concept of Freedom of speech. Some say hate speech must be protected as part of " Freedom of speech". Others have real worries that the dehumanization that is legitimized by irresponsible hate speech leads to genocide.

            https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/11/30...s-muslim-hate/
            "Social scientists agree that attacks on an entire class of people ¬ó whether identified by their race, religion, education, or any other distinguishing characteristic ¬ó do not happen spontaneously. First the mob has to be primed. The targeted group has to be demonized through a campaign of hateful misinformation, always presented as legitimate information by people in positions of trust. Then the signal for violence falls on ready ears.
            It happened this way in Germany, Cambodia, Rwanda, and countless other sites of genocide, ethnic cleansing, and mass persecution. The pamphlets, megaphones, and radio broadcasts came before the pogroms, murders, and forced relocations."

            Here is another opinion/reflection on the balance between criticism and hate speech:- (by Cherian George)
            Hate speech against religious groups is a particularly complex problem, because religious communities define themselves by a set of beliefs and beliefs are fair game for criticism and insult. There is therefore a tension ¬ó some would say a fatal contradiction ¬ó between the need to protect against incitement while allowing beliefs to be pilloried.

            Some of the most fraught debates over offensive speech are due to this tension. When cartoons or videos depict Islam as a murderous religion, governments and internet intermediaries declare that they cannot legitimately restrict such expression, because an attack on a belief system does not technically amount to a call to arms against its believers. Many at the receiving end, however, maintain that such denigration of their religion is part of a broad ideological assault that makes it harder for them to live as equals in their society.

            In any case, a legal right to insult religions does not preclude journalists deciding, on ethical grounds, to refrain from wanton attacks on values and beliefs. Political cartoonist Garry Trudeau suggests media should take people¬ís power into account when making such decisions. Reflecting on the controversy over satirical depictions of the Prophet Mohammed in Europe, Trudeau said in an essay in The Atlantic: ¬ďTraditionally, satire has comforted the afflicted while afflicting the comfortable. Satire punches up against authority of all kinds, the little guy against the powerful ¬Ö Ridiculing the non-privileged is almost never funny ¬ó it¬ís just mean.¬Ē

            While journalists may agree in principle, however, there would still be disagreements over implementation. Muslim immigrants in Europe are a vulnerable minority when viewed at the national level, but they are simultaneously members of a world religion with tremendous power to shape world affairs. Media’s ethical responses will differ depending on which of these two frames apply.

            Extreme nationalism hatred is often overlooked in discussions of hate speech, perhaps because intense and exclusive loyalty to the nation — patriotism — tends to be seen as a virtue in a way that similar sentiments about race or religion are not. Yet, nationalistic hate speech in East Asia, for example, poses a threat to world peace. China’s state-run media, aided by online media, regularly incite hatred against Japan with alarming headlines and half-truths. Right-wing media in Japan reciprocate with China-bashing, although their influence is diluted by Japan’s more open media environment.
            https://ethicaljournalismnetwork.org...ws/hate-speech

            What is your position on hate speech?
            This seems off topic. You should start your own thread if you want to talk about something else.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by siam View Post
              According to the values cherished by the "West" is that of "freedom" and among them is the concept of Freedom of speech. Some say hate speech must be protected as part of " Freedom of speech". Others have real worries that the dehumanization that is legitimized by irresponsible hate speech leads to genocide.

              https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/11/30...s-muslim-hate/
              "Social scientists agree that attacks on an entire class of people ¬ó whether identified by their race, religion, education, or any other distinguishing characteristic ¬ó do not happen spontaneously. First the mob has to be primed. The targeted group has to be demonized through a campaign of hateful misinformation, always presented as legitimate information by people in positions of trust. Then the signal for violence falls on ready ears.
              It happened this way in Germany, Cambodia, Rwanda, and countless other sites of genocide, ethnic cleansing, and mass persecution. The pamphlets, megaphones, and radio broadcasts came before the pogroms, murders, and forced relocations."

              Here is another opinion/reflection on the balance between criticism and hate speech:- (by Cherian George)
              Hate speech against religious groups is a particularly complex problem, because religious communities define themselves by a set of beliefs and beliefs are fair game for criticism and insult. There is therefore a tension ¬ó some would say a fatal contradiction ¬ó between the need to protect against incitement while allowing beliefs to be pilloried.

              Some of the most fraught debates over offensive speech are due to this tension. When cartoons or videos depict Islam as a murderous religion, governments and internet intermediaries declare that they cannot legitimately restrict such expression, because an attack on a belief system does not technically amount to a call to arms against its believers. Many at the receiving end, however, maintain that such denigration of their religion is part of a broad ideological assault that makes it harder for them to live as equals in their society.

              In any case, a legal right to insult religions does not preclude journalists deciding, on ethical grounds, to refrain from wanton attacks on values and beliefs. Political cartoonist Garry Trudeau suggests media should take people¬ís power into account when making such decisions. Reflecting on the controversy over satirical depictions of the Prophet Mohammed in Europe, Trudeau said in an essay in The Atlantic: ¬ďTraditionally, satire has comforted the afflicted while afflicting the comfortable. Satire punches up against authority of all kinds, the little guy against the powerful ¬Ö Ridiculing the non-privileged is almost never funny ¬ó it¬ís just mean.¬Ē

              While journalists may agree in principle, however, there would still be disagreements over implementation. Muslim immigrants in Europe are a vulnerable minority when viewed at the national level, but they are simultaneously members of a world religion with tremendous power to shape world affairs. Media’s ethical responses will differ depending on which of these two frames apply.

              Extreme nationalism hatred is often overlooked in discussions of hate speech, perhaps because intense and exclusive loyalty to the nation — patriotism — tends to be seen as a virtue in a way that similar sentiments about race or religion are not. Yet, nationalistic hate speech in East Asia, for example, poses a threat to world peace. China’s state-run media, aided by online media, regularly incite hatred against Japan with alarming headlines and half-truths. Right-wing media in Japan reciprocate with China-bashing, although their influence is diluted by Japan’s more open media environment.
              https://ethicaljournalismnetwork.org...ws/hate-speech

              What is your position on hate speech?
              This diversionary tactic is incredibly transparent - but I can understand why you would want to avoid DZ's inquiries.
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since youíve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?Ē

              Comment


              • #8
                The Quran advices humanity on many subjects including the principles of speech---its limits and range.
                Surah 8---mentioned above---deals with wartime issues arising from the Battle of Badr. There are other more relevant Quranic verses that deal with the topic of speech.

                Surah 49 has some advice about speech. It starts with advising people to not speak loudly but to lower their voices ---the point of speech is to listen and discuss rather than to show off or create a commotion...
                Surah 49 verse 2-4 (Yusuf ali)
                2. O those who believe, raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak loudly to him as you may with another, lest your deeds become vain and you perceive not.
                3. Those that lower their voice in the presence of God's messenger, their hearts God has tested for piety: for them is forgiveness and great reward.
                4. Those who shout out to you from the inner apartments, most of them lack understanding
                5. If only they had patience until you could come out to them, it would be best for them. But God is oft forgiving, most merciful.
                ---the above verses dealt with individual manners and etiquette of speech---next verses deal with etiquette and principles of group discussion.
                verses 6-8
                6. O those who believe, if a sinner comes to you with any news, ascertain the truth lest you harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what you have done.
                ---It is important to get the facts right in any discussion---to make judgements or policies, or take actions based on inaccurate or false information can cause harm and injustice.

                verses 9 and 10 deal with dispute resolution (group)--and urges people towards peace and reconciliation unless an injustice occurs---if an aggression occurs then fighting is permitted to restore justice and peace.
                9. If 2 parties among the believers fall into a fight, make peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against another then fight against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of God: but if it complies, then make peace between them with justice and b fair. For God loves those who are fair and just.
                10. The believers are but a single brotherhood: so make peace and reconciliation between your two contending brothers and have awe of God that you may receive mercy.
                ---verses 11 to 13 are general rules of etiquette regarding issues of speech and conduct ...such as contempt, rumors/gossip, insults and slander, suspicions and spying/invasion of privacy...etc...
                11. O you who believe, let not some men among you laugh at others, it may be the latter are better than the former, nor let some women laugh at others, it may be the latter are better than the former, nor defame, nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other with offensive names, ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: and those who do not desist are doing wrong.
                12. O you who believe, Avoid suspicion for suspicion in some cases is a sin: and spy not on one another nor speak ill of each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dad brother? no you would abhor it...but have awe of God for God is oft-forgiving, most merciful
                13. O mankind. We created you from a single pair of male and female and made you into nations and tribes that you may know each other (not so you can despise each other) Surely the most honored of you in the sight of God is the most righteous of you and God has full knowledge and is well acquainted with all things.

                verse 13 is important because it points to the guiding principle upon which Islamic ethics/morals are based---which is that all humanity is a creation of the ONE God and therefore all are brothers to one another and equal in the eyes of God. (Tawheed) Our diversity is a blessing bestowed by God so we can get to know each other and grow in our compassion and mercy. It is a no brainer to like someone just like us---it takes more maturity, compassion and understanding to extend grace to those who are very different from us.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by siam View Post
                  The Quran advices humanity on many subjects including the principles of speech---its limits and range.
                  Surah 8---mentioned above---deals with wartime issues arising from the Battle of Badr. There are other more relevant Quranic verses that deal with the topic of speech.

                  Surah 49 has some advice about speech. It starts with advising people to not speak loudly but to lower their voices ---the point of speech is to listen and discuss rather than to show off or create a commotion...
                  Surah 49 verse 2-4 (Yusuf ali)
                  2. O those who believe, raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak loudly to him as you may with another, lest your deeds become vain and you perceive not.
                  3. Those that lower their voice in the presence of God's messenger, their hearts God has tested for piety: for them is forgiveness and great reward.
                  4. Those who shout out to you from the inner apartments, most of them lack understanding
                  5. If only they had patience until you could come out to them, it would be best for them. But God is oft forgiving, most merciful.
                  ---the above verses dealt with individual manners and etiquette of speech---next verses deal with etiquette and principles of group discussion.
                  verses 6-8
                  6. O those who believe, if a sinner comes to you with any news, ascertain the truth lest you harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what you have done.
                  ---It is important to get the facts right in any discussion---to make judgements or policies, or take actions based on inaccurate or false information can cause harm and injustice.

                  verses 9 and 10 deal with dispute resolution (group)--and urges people towards peace and reconciliation unless an injustice occurs---if an aggression occurs then fighting is permitted to restore justice and peace.
                  9. If 2 parties among the believers fall into a fight, make peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against another then fight against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of God: but if it complies, then make peace between them with justice and b fair. For God loves those who are fair and just.
                  10. The believers are but a single brotherhood: so make peace and reconciliation between your two contending brothers and have awe of God that you may receive mercy.
                  ---verses 11 to 13 are general rules of etiquette regarding issues of speech and conduct ...such as contempt, rumors/gossip, insults and slander, suspicions and spying/invasion of privacy...etc...
                  11. O you who believe, let not some men among you laugh at others, it may be the latter are better than the former, nor let some women laugh at others, it may be the latter are better than the former, nor defame, nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other with offensive names, ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: and those who do not desist are doing wrong.
                  12. O you who believe, Avoid suspicion for suspicion in some cases is a sin: and spy not on one another nor speak ill of each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dad brother? no you would abhor it...but have awe of God for God is oft-forgiving, most merciful
                  13. O mankind. We created you from a single pair of male and female and made you into nations and tribes that you may know each other (not so you can despise each other) Surely the most honored of you in the sight of God is the most righteous of you and God has full knowledge and is well acquainted with all things.

                  verse 13 is important because it points to the guiding principle upon which Islamic ethics/morals are based---which is that all humanity is a creation of the ONE God and therefore all are brothers to one another and equal in the eyes of God. (Tawheed) Our diversity is a blessing bestowed by God so we can get to know each other and grow in our compassion and mercy. It is a no brainer to like someone just like us---it takes more maturity, compassion and understanding to extend grace to those who are very different from us.
                  Please stay on topic Siam. Or start your own thread.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    The Quran advices humanity on many subjects including the principles of speech---its limits and range.
                    Surah 8---mentioned above---deals with wartime issues arising from the Battle of Badr. There are other more relevant Quranic verses that deal with the topic of speech.

                    Surah 49 has some advice about speech. It starts with advising people to not speak loudly but to lower their voices ---the point of speech is to listen and discuss rather than to show off or create a commotion...
                    Surah 49 verse 2-4 (Yusuf ali)
                    2. O those who believe, raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak loudly to him as you may with another, lest your deeds become vain and you perceive not.
                    3. Those that lower their voice in the presence of God's messenger, their hearts God has tested for piety: for them is forgiveness and great reward.
                    4. Those who shout out to you from the inner apartments, most of them lack understanding
                    5. If only they had patience until you could come out to them, it would be best for them. But God is oft forgiving, most merciful.
                    ---the above verses dealt with individual manners and etiquette of speech---next verses deal with etiquette and principles of group discussion.
                    verses 6-8
                    6. O those who believe, if a sinner comes to you with any news, ascertain the truth lest you harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what you have done.
                    ---It is important to get the facts right in any discussion---to make judgements or policies, or take actions based on inaccurate or false information can cause harm and injustice.

                    verses 9 and 10 deal with dispute resolution (group)--and urges people towards peace and reconciliation unless an injustice occurs---if an aggression occurs then fighting is permitted to restore justice and peace.
                    9. If 2 parties among the believers fall into a fight, make peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against another then fight against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of God: but if it complies, then make peace between them with justice and b fair. For God loves those who are fair and just.
                    10. The believers are but a single brotherhood: so make peace and reconciliation between your two contending brothers and have awe of God that you may receive mercy.
                    ---verses 11 to 13 are general rules of etiquette regarding issues of speech and conduct ...such as contempt, rumors/gossip, insults and slander, suspicions and spying/invasion of privacy...etc...
                    11. O you who believe, let not some men among you laugh at others, it may be the latter are better than the former, nor let some women laugh at others, it may be the latter are better than the former, nor defame, nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other with offensive names, ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: and those who do not desist are doing wrong.
                    12. O you who believe, Avoid suspicion for suspicion in some cases is a sin: and spy not on one another nor speak ill of each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dad brother? no you would abhor it...but have awe of God for God is oft-forgiving, most merciful
                    13. O mankind. We created you from a single pair of male and female and made you into nations and tribes that you may know each other (not so you can despise each other) Surely the most honored of you in the sight of God is the most righteous of you and God has full knowledge and is well acquainted with all things.

                    verse 13 is important because it points to the guiding principle upon which Islamic ethics/morals are based---which is that all humanity is a creation of the ONE God and therefore all are brothers to one another and equal in the eyes of God. (Tawheed) Our diversity is a blessing bestowed by God so we can get to know each other and grow in our compassion and mercy. It is a no brainer to like someone just like us---it takes more maturity, compassion and understanding to extend grace to those who are very different from us.
                    Again, a whole lot of babble that has NOTHING to do with the topic.
                    "Neighbor, how long has it been since youíve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?Ē

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I got the quranic ayats / verses mentioned in my originating post, siam. They are the words of Allah / God himself (allegedly claimed by muslims):-

                      Sura 2/171 Yusuf Ali:-

                      The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.


                      Surah 7/176, 177:-

                      If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is THAT OF A DOG: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he still lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude (or description) of those WHO REJECT Our signs; So relate the story; perhaps they may reflect.

                      Evil as an example are PEOPLE who REJECT Our signs and wrong their own souls.

                      Sura 62/5

                      The likeness of those who are entrusted with the Law of Moses, yet apply it not, is as the likeness of THE ASS CARRYING BOOKS. WRETCHED is the likeness of folk who deny the revelations of Allah. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

                      Sura 25/44:-

                      Do you think that most of them hear or understand? They ARE ONLY LIKE CATTLE; nay, they are even farther astray from the Path. (i.e. they are even WORSE than cattle).

                      Sura 8/55:-

                      Lo! the WORST OF BEASTS in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will NOT BELIEVE.


                      Sura 9/5:-

                      Then, when the sacred months have passed, SLAY (KILL) the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

                      Sura 9/29:-

                      FIGHT THOSE who BELIEVE NOT in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, NOR ACKNOWLEDGE the religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

                      All the above are presumably, ALLAH Speaking ie.all his words, in the belief of Muslims.

                      The quran verses you gave (humans were created to 'know one another' etc) are instructions & commands for humans to relate to each other. But how on earth is that going to be possible, when Allah himself vilifies non-muslims with vileness, crass names, curses and all manner of foul abuse??

                      The Koran is obviously & clearly contradicting itself here. How can muslims treat non muslims "nicely" as you claim in quoting sura 49, when Allah HIMSELF abuses, vilifies and curses them?

                      God himself commands curses, abuses and vilification upon the unbelievers of islam. In conflict with what u r saying in sura 49. Who dares to go against the eternal & immutable words of God, up there? You r trying to contradict the commands of Allah.

                      BTW, verse 49/2 does not prohibit muslims from talking loudly against & to each other! This ayat ONLY FORBIDS talking loudly & uncouthly against your precious & grandiose Muhd!

                      " O those who believe, raise NOT YOUR VOICES ABOVE the voice of the Prophet, nor speak loudly to him - AS YOU MAY WITH ONE ANOTHER.."

                      So this is just another example of the koran's - and its god, Allah's deference and preferential treatment to muhamed, founder of islam. All other humans may be treated carelessly, without a second thought.

                      When Allah treats certain human groups with vile, crassness, & vilification, who are you to propose a divergent view?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The Bible is a very big book and comparatively, the Quran is a much thinner book. As a Muslim...I have read the Quran many times---so quoting Quranic verses out of context does not work with me. I have said so many times on this site that context is necessary and reading the verses previous to and after the quoted verse gives more context. As an example--lets look at Surah 2, verse 171 (Yusuf ali) ---in context by reading 170.

                        170. When it is said to them: "follow what God has revealed" They say: "No we shall follow the ways of our fathers" What! even though their fathers were void of wisdom and guidance?
                        171. The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.

                        Apparently the NT gives the same advice

                        Matthew 7:6 is the sixth verse of the seventh chapter of the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament and is part of the Sermon on the Mount.[1] This verse contains an ambiguous warning about placing "pearls before swine."

                        The original Koine Greek, according to Westcott and Hort, reads:

                        μὴ δῶτε τὸ ἅγιον τοῖς κυσὶν μηδὲ βάλητε τοὺς μαργαρίτας
                        ὑμῶν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν χοίρων μήποτε καταπατήσουσιν αὐτοὺς
                        ἐν τοῖς ποσὶν αὐτῶν καὶ στραφέντες ῥήξωσιν ὑμᾶς
                        In the King James Version of the Bible the text reads:

                        Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast
                        ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them
                        under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
                        The World English Bible translates the passage as:

                        Donít give that which is holy to the dogs, neither throw
                        your pearls before the pigs, lest perhaps they trample
                        them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

                        So can YOU explain the Bible and Christian hate speech?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          The Bible is a very big book and comparatively, the Quran is a much thinner book. As a Muslim...I have read the Quran many times---so quoting Quranic verses out of context does not work with me. I have said so many times on this site that context is necessary and reading the verses previous to and after the quoted verse gives more context. As an example--lets look at Surah 2, verse 171 (Yusuf ali) ---in context by reading 170.

                          170. When it is said to them: "follow what God has revealed" They say: "No we shall follow the ways of our fathers" What! even though their fathers were void of wisdom and guidance?
                          171. The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.

                          Apparently the NT gives the same advice

                          Matthew 7:6 is the sixth verse of the seventh chapter of the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament and is part of the Sermon on the Mount.[1] This verse contains an ambiguous warning about placing "pearls before swine."

                          The original Koine Greek, according to Westcott and Hort, reads:

                          μὴ δῶτε τὸ ἅγιον τοῖς κυσὶν μηδὲ βάλητε τοὺς μαργαρίτας
                          ὑμῶν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν χοίρων μήποτε καταπατήσουσιν αὐτοὺς
                          ἐν τοῖς ποσὶν αὐτῶν καὶ στραφέντες ῥήξωσιν ὑμᾶς
                          In the King James Version of the Bible the text reads:

                          Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast
                          ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them
                          under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
                          The World English Bible translates the passage as:

                          Donít give that which is holy to the dogs, neither throw
                          your pearls before the pigs, lest perhaps they trample
                          them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

                          So can YOU explain the Bible and Christian hate speech?
                          How is that hate speech? It says not to waste your time on people who will never change.

                          Oh wait, let me guess, since dogs and pigs are evil and shunned under Islam, you think calling someone a dog or a pig is hate speech.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            How is that hate speech? It says not to waste your time on people who will never change.

                            Oh wait, let me guess, since dogs and pigs are evil and shunned under Islam, you think calling someone a dog or a pig is hate speech.
                            I do not think it is hate speech---this was an assumption made by Dan when he quoted similar verses out of context.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View Post
                              ...

                              BTW, verse 49/2 does not prohibit muslims from talking loudly against & to each other! This ayat ONLY FORBIDS talking loudly & uncouthly against Muhd!

                              " O those who believe, raise NOT YOUR VOICES ABOVE the voice of the Prophet, nor speak loudly to him - AS YOU MAY WITH ONE ANOTHER.."
                              Dan makes an interesting point here....

                              1) The Islamic paradigm does not have a dichotomy of good/bad---rather morality/ethics is understood at 5 levels
                              a) Permissible (Halal)
                              b) permissible with conditions (Mustahab)
                              c) Normative/duty (Wajib/Fard)
                              d) Not permissible with exceptions (Makhruh)
                              e) Not permissible (Haram)

                              The Prophet was elected/chosen as leader by the community. As such, he has certain responsibilities---likewise the community also has reciprocal responsibility towards their chosen leader. Thus, the Quran asks for a higher level of civility and respect to the leader of the community than to "one another". This distinction preserves the right of the individuals to have vigorous discourse and debate with each other---the right to freedom of speech.

                              2) The reason the Quran allows for freedom of speech is because religion is not meant to be a burden to people....
                              Surah 2 verse 286.

                              Yusuf Ali: On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."

                              Shakir: Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned and upon it (the evil of) what it has wrought: Our Lord! do not punish us if we forget or make a mistake; Our Lord! do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us, Our Lord do not impose upon us that which we have not the strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our Patron, so help us against the unbelieving people.

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