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Does only Allah know the totality of all the hearts?

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  • Does only Allah know the totality of all the hearts?

    1 Kings 8:39 (cf. 2 Chronicles 6:3) teaches that God alone knows the totality of all the hearts.

    The Qur'an affirms the same thing:
    Muhsin Khan
    And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden and unseen. (Surat Al-Mā'idah (The Table Spread), 5:116, Muhsin Khan).

    If the Lord Jesus is not God then why does the Bible teach He has this same knowledge?
    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...cience)‏

  • #2
    uhhhh....why is the Qur'an necessary for this?
    "Kahahaha! Let's get lunatic!"-Add LP
    "And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin is pride that apes humility"-Samuel Taylor Coleridge
    Oh ye of little fiber. Do you not know what I've done for you? You will obey. ~Cerealman for Prez.

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    • #3
      Because it is believed to be inspired by those who embrace Islam.

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      • #4
        very interesting question---and its is an idea I have not thought of before...............
        ....but.....
        to rephrase what I think you are asking is ....God is omniscient and Jesus Christ (pbuh) is omniscient therefore Jesus Christ is God....?......

        Can this be problematic?...for if we say, God is love and human beings love then it would mean that human beings are God...?.....The Islamic understanding of God's attributes such as Most Knowing, Most Compassionate, Most Just....etc is to acknowledge that because God is uncreated its full attributes are beyond the limited experiential understanding of intelligent created beings.
        The Quran mentions that Jesus Christ (pbuh) created birds (real birds) out of clay....God also created human beings out of clay...because of this similarity, can an argument be made that Jesus Christ(pbuh) is God?----no, and the Quran points out why......Any attributes that Jesus Christ had that appear similar to those one may ascribe to God/Allah are because God allows/permits him to have them. (Quran 5:110). Since these qualities are given BY God/Allah (to a human being) such a person/being cannot be God/Allah

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        • #5
          God is love in the absolute sense. Humans may have love but God "is" love. The same would apply to being "holy" (Revelation 15:4).

          The Bible teaches that to know the totality of all the hearts is the same thing as being omniscient. (Please see the link in the OP then go to "Part B")


          Doesn't the Qur'an teach the same thing?

          Muhsin Khan
          You (O Muhammad SAW) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive whom you will. And whomsoever you desire of those whom you have set aside (her turn temporarily), it is no sin on you (to receive her again), that is better; that they may be comforted and not grieved, and may all be pleased with what you give them. Allah knows what is in your hearts. And Allah is Ever AllKnowing, Most Forbearing. (33:51)
          http://quran.com/33


          Muhsin Khan
          Verily, Allah is the AllKnower of the unseen of the heavens and the earth. Verily! He is the AllKnower of that is in the breasts. (35:38)
          http://quran.com/35

          If as you say God permitted the Lord Jesus to know the totality of the hearts of all then that is the same thing as saying the Omniscient God created another Omniscient God.

          But there is only one God.

          Thus the Lord Jesus is God.
          Last edited by foudroyant; 04-27-2014, 07:29 AM.

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          • #6
            "If as you say God permitted the Lord Jesus to know the totality of the hearts of all then that is the same thing as saying the Omniscient God created another Omniscient God."---but is God created or uncreated?---If we presume that an attribute of God is that it is uncreated---then a "created God" cannot exist........

            Absolute sense---It is not wise to define God's attributes in absolutes---it seems arrogant that God (concept of God) can be defined by our limited understanding....it is therefore better to leave definitions of God open ended. Thus---God is unlimited.................

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            • #7
              In your opinion----Is similarity of one attribute enough to declare a particular creation as God? How does one decide who is or is not God?

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              • #8
                I agree a created God can not exist. Since the Lord Jesus knows the totality of all hearts (which means He is omniscient) this proves He is God (which means He was always God -> He never was created).

                It is arrogant to say that God can not be defined in some way by our understanding. This is what language is for. I realize there are many things about God we can not fully comprehend but when it reads that only God is holy and then elsewhere that people are holy a distinction is warranted.
                1. M. William Ury: All of heaven's hosts, Israel, and the church ascribe praise to a holy God because that idea sets him apart from everything else (Exodus 15:11; Isaiah 6:3; Revelation 4:8). Holiness is what God is (Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology, Holy, Holiness).
                http://www.studylight.org/dic/bed/view.cgi?n=341
                2. Andrew E. Hill: The God of the Old Testament is utterly holy and thus transcendent, inaccessible, mysterious, and inscrutable (Psalm 99:3-9). But if this alone were true about God, why worship such a terrible and awesome deity? Happily, this same God is also the "Holy One among you" (Hosea 11:9), a God who at once dwells "in a high and holy place, but also with him who is contrite and lowly in spirit" (Isaiah 57:15). God merits worship because in his imminent presence he is able to answer those who call upon him and forgive their wrongdoings (Psalm 99:8). It was this intimate presence of a holy God that prompted heartfelt praise and worship (Psalm 99:3) and the keen desire for holy living among the people of Israel (Leviticus 19:2).
                (Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology, Worship)
                http://www.studylight.org/dic/bed/view.cgi?n=745


                In answer to your question: Any being that is omniscient and omnipotent is by definition "God". That is how both God and these words are properly defined. If you do not agree with these definitions I'd like to see a source that supports your claim.
                Furthermore, I cited in the OP passages from the Bible and 1 from the Qur'an that teach "only" God knows the totality of the hearts of all people.
                This means that no one else has the ability to do this...ONLY God.
                Since the Lord Jesus has this same knowledge the conclusion is unavoidable --> The Lord Jesus is God.
                Last edited by foudroyant; 04-27-2014, 07:43 PM.

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                • #9
                  I am travelling and don't have enough time but will reply more fully when I get back

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                    I agree a created God can not exist. Since the Lord Jesus knows the totality of all hearts (which means He is omniscient) this proves He is God (which means He was always God -> He never was created).


                    In answer to your question: Any being that is omniscient and omnipotent is by definition "God". That is how both God and these words are properly defined. If you do not agree with these definitions I'd like to see a source that supports your claim.
                    Furthermore, I cited in the OP passages from the Bible and 1 from the Qur'an that teach "only" God knows the totality of the hearts of all people.
                    This means that no one else has the ability to do this...ONLY God.
                    Since the Lord Jesus has this same knowledge the conclusion is unavoidable --> The Lord Jesus is God.
                    knowing hearts---IF Jesus Christ(pbuh) did know hearts---and this was an ability that God blessed him with, then it does NOT prove he is/was God. God has blessed human beings with the ability to have compassion and mercy, with the ability to acquire knowledge, with the ability to comprehend justice and struggle/strive for it....and various other blessings.....that these blessings appear similar to the attributes ascribed to God does not make you or me or anyone else into God.......
                    One may argue that the abilities of human beings are different in degree to that of the Divine---true---but what is the line one draws when declaring a human being/creation as "God"---what degree of ability qualifies and who is to judge and what is the criteria for evidence? One could say that Since God is unknowable, the unlimited degree of its attributes are incomprehensible to human beings therefore any similarity of attributes comprehensible to human minds would disqualify a creation from Divinity?

                    Omniscience---Though Muslims may use this label to describe an attribute of God, an old argument in Islamic philosophy, more or less, concluded that God/God's attributes cannot be described in absolute terms as this limits our understanding of God. In language---definitions limit concepts/things----that is the function of definitions........
                    instead, language such as Most Knowing, Most Powerful, Most Compassionate...etc might be more appropriate when discussing attributes of God.

                    We both agree that God is Most Knowing/Most knowledgeable----however, concluding that Jesus Christ(pbuh) is also God because of an assumed similarity might be a stretch?
                    Could one say that because Jesus Christ was born, dies, ate, slept...and all the other various similarities with human beings.....that he was a human being?
                    What is your definition of "the created"/creation?
                    ....this is a bit off-topic---but, I have wondered----on what basis is the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost judged as "God"?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by siam View Post
                      knowing hearts---IF Jesus Christ(pbuh) did know hearts---and this was an ability that God blessed him with, then it does NOT prove he is/was God.
                      kardiognwsta is not defined the way you are asserting.




                      The other attributes you listed no one but God alone has them in the absolute sense. I already pointed this out concerning the word "holy in Post #8.
                      No one has these qualities to perfection like God does. Asking where the line is drawn misses the point for every thing created does not and can not achieve them to perfection.

                      Is it an absolute that God can not be described in absolute terms? To say He can not be one must have FULL knowledge of who/what He is. This is self-defeating.
                      Definitions therefore do not "limit concepts/things" but they "describe" them.

                      I agree that the Lord Jesus was a human being. In fact, 1 Timothy 2:5 teaches He is a man and Colossians 2:9 teaches He exists in bodily form.

                      Why is it that the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer/worship in the New Testament but yet Muslims deny that He is to be prayed to/worshiped?
                      Last edited by foudroyant; 05-11-2014, 06:16 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Christian-centric language---After some conversations with Christians, I have become aware that when using English, some words/definitions have Christian-centric meanings/understanding that do not apply to Islamic religious/theological concepts and this can lead to participants of a conversation misunderstanding each other. So now I try to explain my and/or Islamic/Muslim meanings/understandings. Since the presumptions upon which our religions/theology are based may be different---our approaches and understanding also differ......

                        Perfection----I have noticed that some Christians are concerned with the idea of "perfection"---I don't understand why this concept is important within a Christian framework, nevertheless, I can agree that any attributes of God that its creation may possess will differ in degree..... (unless God wills otherwise......)

                        What God is or is not----There are some quotes from the Tao te Ching that describe the Islamic concept of God---
                        " Since before time and space were,
                        Tao is
                        It is beyond "is" and "is not".
                        ...and....
                        "Tao is beyond words
                        and beyond understanding
                        Words may be used to speak of it
                        but they cannot contain it."

                        The Islamic concept of "Oneness" of God emphasis Uniqueness---the idea that none in creation is like God. Therefore, God is not a numerical one as such a concept limits/defines God to a numeral and numerals have a plural.
                        "Allah" does not have any plurals.
                        The reason that definitions or descriptions are limiting is because they exclude---without exclusion an object/thing/concept cannot be defined. To exclude is to limit.......however, any conversation about God needs to use "is/is not" otherwise we cannot communicate---thus "is/is not" has to be used cautiously with the understanding that these are not absolute terms/concepts.......as the Tao te Ching says, God/Tao cannot be contained in human language.....

                        Masih Isa, son of Mary---I can agree that Jesus Christ(pbuh) is a Human being. He was born like all other human beings, because God willed it so. He brought Guidance from God just as other Prophets before him. In order to fulfill the purpose for which he was created, he may have been blessed with special abilities...as other Prophets were....The Guidance that he brought---to worship God alone---is a reminder of the Shema of Judaism and is repeated in the Quran. God is Unique, Uncreated. To elevate any of his creation to Divine status is an error because worship(Ibadah) belongs to God alone.

                        All human beings are God's creations and if the human body/form called Jesus is also a human being, then he too is God's creation---to ascribe Divinity to the created is an error. To worship a creation instead of God is an error. To use the name of any creation in worship and prayers instead of God is an error. Only God is the proper recipient of prayers for God is Uncreated, Unique.

                        God/Allah cannot be appropriated by a group or religion as it is the creator of all creation---no particular creation can claim special status to God. All creation belongs to God and none is superior/inferior to another......

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                        • #13
                          kardiognwsta is defined based on Greek lexicons. It is not an English word.
                          The NT teaches that the Lord Jesus is prayed to/worshiped.

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