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  • #16
    Originally posted by siam View Post
    I think all human beings desire Justice. Unscrupulous people can abuse such desires for their own gains. This is true for non-Muslim majority countries as it is for Muslim majority countries.
    One would think that citizens of countries that value human dignity would oppose the practice of torture....Yet, in the U.S. John Yoo and others of the infamous torture memos helped open legal doors for the use of torture....
    ......and we have Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Renditions, waterboarding.......
    One would think that a people who value the principle of equality for all would not allow for an unjust and unequal legal process, yet, in the U.S. a disproportionate number of black people/people of color are jailed...privatized detention centers for juveniles are a business of filling beds for profits regardless of the consequences on the young.....

    Systems can be abused---these systems can be those of government, economics, jurisprudence...etc. If the citizens of a country are not vigilant, a system will be abused. When abuse occurs, there might be two types of reactions---either to get rid of that system and build a new one or to reform the existing system in order to align with the (original) ideals. So,.....some people are saying that torture, is un-American, that inequality and injustice go against the spirit of equality that the U.S. was founded on.

    It may seem at first that "Justice" is a concept confined to Jurisprudence alone. In my opinion, Justice can be understood as a "way of life"....one that encompasses the micro and the macro. It begins in the home, to treat our Parents and relatives with compassion and justice, then to apply it to our relations with Friends, neighbors, community and to expand it in our expectations of our societies, nations and humanity.
    Given the extremely high rate at which this 'system' is abused its validity as a justice system is highly questionable.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      Given the extremely high rate at which this 'system' is abused its validity as a justice system is highly questionable.
      I agree that in any system, when abuse begins to occur, it is time to question, criticize and reform or perhaps overhaul it.......

      Many countries use "mixed" systems of both secular and "religious" laws with religious laws confined to matters relating to family court/personal status issues.....IMO, both systems (religious and secular) are corrupt.
      Often people related to organized crime, politics, or big business get away with crimes. It is often the poor---those without power or money, that feel the severest brunt of "law"....as well as reformists, activists, and political oppositions.....

      In a country, it is the duty of the citizens to be vigilant against abuses---it is they that can act as checks against the self-interests of the few who are abusers. In Islam, this concept is called Jihad (to strive/struggle) to strive for justice and against oppression. This is a responsibility of every generation. There is no system that is immune to abuse because systems are made up of human beings and there are a few among us, in every generation, who will always exploit and abuse.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Under Islam, it can be very dangerous for a woman to claim she was raped, because it an admission of sexual activity which can lead to a charge of adultery (which is punishable by death) and her testimony as a woman is not sufficient to implicate the rapist.
        Under Islam, it can be very dangerous for a woman, period.
        Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

        -Thomas Aquinas

        I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

        -Hernando Cortez

        What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

        -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

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        • #19
          "under xyz, it can be dangerous for a woman..."
          ...and xyz could stand for anything....for example, it is dangerous for women in the U.S. military with harassment, abuse, rape, of women in combat or on base covered up....or in countries such as Cambodia and Egypt where the proportion of women harassed (Egypt) and raped (Cambodia) is very high.......
          I think that if a serious issue such as abuse of women is chalked up to imaginary causes---it does a disservice to women and to humanity. Why do some men rape/abuse women?---as far as I know there are theories but no definitive answers...?......

          Islam promotes the principle that all human beings are created equal. There is no race, ethnicity, gender, or other divisions making one group of people superior or inferior to others. Under (traditional) Islamic law, women owned properties and assets, were able to inherit, invest, will or dispose of these assets or properties as they saw fit, they could litigate or defend their rights or contracts in courts, could divorce their spouses, conduct business, participate in politics, become leaders, scholars,.....etc.

          Over time, these rights were lost or curtailed......

          Today, Musawah (Sisters in Islam) and other groups like this are striving to reclaim women's rights within an Islamic framework in order to regain the rights that Islam already granted them.
          Last edited by siam; 04-22-2014, 11:07 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by siam View Post
            "under xyz, it can be dangerous for a woman..."
            ...and xyz could stand for anything....for example, it is dangerous for women in the U.S. military with harassment, abuse, rape, of women in combat or on base covered up....or in countries such as Cambodia and Egypt where the proportion of women harassed (Egypt) and raped (Cambodia) is very high.......
            I think that if a serious issue such as abuse of women is chalked up to imaginary causes---it does a disservice to women and to humanity. Why do some men rape/abuse women?---as far as I know there are theories but no definitive answers...?......

            Islam promotes the principle that all human beings are created equal. There is no race, ethnicity, gender, or other divisions making one group of people superior or inferior to others. Under (traditional) Islamic law, women owned properties and assets, were able to inherit, invest, will or dispose of these assets or properties as they saw fit, they could litigate or defend their rights or contracts in courts, could divorce their spouses, conduct business, participate in politics, become leaders, scholars,.....etc.

            Over time, these rights were lost or curtailed......

            Today, Musawah (Sisters in Islam) and other groups like this are striving to reclaim women's rights within an Islamic framework in order to regain the rights that Islam already granted them.
            Read Surah 4:34 , then try to tell me traditional Islamic law respects women.
            Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

            -Thomas Aquinas

            I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

            -Hernando Cortez

            What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

            -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

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            • #21
              "traditional Islamic law"---my use of the term "traditional" is casual and loose---refers to an earlier period and what is practiced "today" more or less refers to post-colonial period. The reason I am using terms casually is because generally there are 5 major schools of law (and there may be minor ones too) and these schools of law change and adapt over time---so 1400 years of fluctuating history (and law) is difficult to compress.

              Jurisprudence generally has a methodology to arrive at law---methodology (Usul al Fiqh) determines the source of principles (that govern a society) and how these sources are used to arrive at law. For example, one might say that one of the principles the U.S. is founded on is that "all men are created equal and are endowed with certain inalienable rights" found in the document the Declaration of Independence.
              How these principles are interpreted and applied may change over time---for example, the words "all men" in the above principle was understood to apply, at one time, only to white landowners of the male gender and excluded native Americans, Blacks and women....but the application of this principle changed over time to be understood more inclusively......

              Islamic Jurisprudence also uses sources to base its ethico-moral principles upon, and among the various sources used, there is Quran and Sunnah. In the Quran there is a Surah tilted "Woman" (surah 4) which begins with the declaration that the soul (human soul/nafs) was created from a singularity and from this was created her mate and from these were "scattered" many souls.---In other words, there is no inherent superiority or inferiority between the genders. (There are however, biological differences.) Some (early) scholars felt that Surah 4 must be interpreted on the 2 principles declared in its beginning, that God is most compassionate, most merciful and that the genders/humanity are created inherently equal. (there were a few scholars that disagreed).

              Surah 4 verse 34-35 (Yusuf Ali translation)

              34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given one more (strength) than the other and because they support them from their means. therefore the righteous women are devout and guard in (the spouse) absence what God would have the guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); But if the return to accord seek not against them means (of annoyance): for God is most high, great (above you all).

              35 If you fear a breach between them twain, appoint (2) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they seek to set things aright, God will cause their reconciliation: for God has full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.

              In verse 34 the Arabic for the words "beat them" has been interpreted variously....those who interpret it as "to strike" (despite the fact that according to the Sunnah, this is not how the Prophet understood it), do so with the understanding that this is meant to be symbolic. In other words, if the spouse is bruised then she has the right to seek divorce. This was meant to stop the prevalent cultural phenomenon of domestic abuse by curtailing its use at the same time allowing the spouse to express extreme displeasure.

              Today, some scholars are dissatisfied with this interpretation (and I agree). The dissatisfaction hinges around the interpretation of the Arabic word translated as beat/strike. (if you look up the english word "strike" there are many ways the word is used apart from the common "to hit") Among the many ways the arabic word (daraba) is used---it can mean "to separate/go away" Considering the context of verse 4:35 (reconciliation or divorce) some scholars are arguing that the interpretation of "to separate" as in leave the premises---may be more accurate interpretation.

              Islamic feminism----as mentioned in verse 4:34, Men have the responsibility of protection and financial maintenance (of their families)---this means that husbands cannot abuse the women who are under their protection, it also means that all earnings of women are their own property and they have no responsibility for the maintenance of the house and family. This creates a situation where women are independently wealthy and have the means to control their wealth. (This can mean for example--that women can choose to invest in ventures and grow their wealth without sacrificing the time they spend with their families). As mentioned previously, the Quran acknowledges that both genders are inherently equal---but they are biologically different. God has seen fit to give the biological responsibility of pregnancy and nurturing to women---to compensate, men have been asked to take the responsibility of protection and maintenance of their families. The biological difference creates different circumstances for men and women and in order to have a balanced society that promotes happiness for both genders, these needs and circumstances have to be taken into consideration.

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              • #22
                Mr. Thailand certainly knows how to use the principle of false equivalence and tu quoque.

                K54

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